In this episode, my friend Clementine Desseaux (@bonjourclem), model, activist, TedEx speaker and CEO of the All Womxn Project shares stories ranging from her beginnings: with a start in business school, to a break through TV add as a plus-size model in France; her first "big" casting with American Apparel, and the trajectory that got her to start her charity, with the aim to offer young women limitless horizons.
Clem also explains to me how she has become her childhood idol, Indiana Jones, adding a thoughtful reflection on what it means to get the gold. She talks through her thoughts of fashion and beauty, and how things have moved on for plus size models. We end on her views about femininity and gelato: an indeed wide ranging and entertaining conversation with a bold and bright entrepreneur.
Clementine on Instagram
The TV ad that launched Clem's career in France with Castaluna
Clem in the American Apparel campaign
Elizabeth Gilbert on curiosity over fear, interview by Krista Tippet for On Being Podcast
The New York Times Article on beauty and body diversity
The painter Jerome Lagarrigue
The Campaign we talk about
Clem's video for the Louboutin rouge lipstick
Miski Muse and the Refinery 29 Campaign
@Hailey and her vegan cookbook
@Khloe Kares, the 13 year old activist
The Five Love Languages book & quiz
A tried and tested bolognese recipe
Below are resources and hotlines for victims of abuse:
National Domestic Violence (you can donate to them as well)
National Alliances on Mental Illness
Other Charities:
Thank you to Conor Heffernan for the music, Brian Ponto for artwork and Joel North for his help in improving our Zoom recording sound somewhat.
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Anne:
So I thought that what we could do to start is ask you to introduce yourself for our listeners.
Clem:
Okay. My name is Clem and I'm 31 years old, French. I was born in Toulouse, France, and I now live in Miami Beach, but I've been living in New York for the last, almost seven years before that I am a model and activist and the CEO of the All Womxn Project and influencer, whatever you call it. And I'm a dog mom as well, mother of Ms. Baguette, a giant schnauzer of almost four years old.
Anne:
So obviously we know each other we're friends, but before this interview, I thought it'd be really worth it for me to spend some time sort of diving into the story of Clem. So what does body positivity mean?
Clem:
I would say in general body positivity is really literally means whatever your body is, being able to accept it and ultimately love it. And that also means uplifting each other's body and valuing each other's body, regardless of shape, size, age ability and everything.
Anne:
How long ago have you come across that term? Because for me it wasn't something that I'd heard a lot until quite recently.
Clem:
I mean, body positivity is way old, but he became known, I would say to the white public in America, about 10 years ago and for us in France and in Europe probably five years ago, but nobody really talked about it until two or three years ago. So for me, I kind of just like jump into it when I first moved to America, maybe about eight or nine years ago, you know, starting as a plus size model, I knew a bunch of people that were already talking about it. And so I kind of just jumped right in and made it my own.
Anne:
You mentioned you considered yourself an activist. Could you tell us a little bit about how you fit body positivity and activism together, or what are the differences for you as well?
Clem:
I mean, I was called before body positivity activists, which is true. It's not untrue, but I would say, I would say like, in my mind you're an activist or you're not because being an activist is just about defending and promoting things that you believe in body positivity is the main thing for me, because that's what I started with. And that's what my charity is mostly about. And I'm a plus size model. So you make sense recently is I also worked a lot on mental health activism with some partners through my charity to all women project. Oh. So if I had just started for abused women, you know, abusive relationships, that's something that is really new, that I'm also really getting into. I would definitely consider myself an activist. I think I was, since I was a kid, like I was always the one defending all the, all the kids and the ones speaking up and the one night, you know, bothering teachers about stuff that was important. So yeah, I think I've just always had it in me. Right. I just didn't know there was a name for it. Yeah. I'm trying to do my best.
Anne:
Great. Thank you for the awesome transition. Cause I went to, to ask you, what did you want to be when, when you were a kid, what did you imagine yourself to become?
Clem:
So, I mean, I had really different phases, but I would say I want it to be anywhere from a background dancer at the hit machine, you know, that like music show that we have back in France, back in the days that was like a dream. And then I want it to be a singer. Good. And I just kind of, my voice was not that good. And then I wanted to be a family judge, cause I wanted to defend kids that were in like difficult situation than a kid's psychologist because, you know, I had issues and so wanting to be able to like help kids that have issues like me, but all that just, I just moved on. And, but the one thing that always always was my dream, I wanted to be Indiana Jones and that was my dream. So yeah. So I, you know, I ended up being a model like by the way of business school and editing and all bunch of stuff I've done in the meantime. But you don't think in the end, I'm pretty close to being Indiana Jones because I'm like, I traveled a lot. I discover a bunch of stuff, whether it's food, places, people, and I'm an adventurer. And you know, I fired for people that can fight for themselves and sometimes I find goal or surprises or stuff, you know, so I think it's like I managed to somehow being close to him.
Anne:
So tell me, how did you become a model?
Clem:
I became a model wasn't it was a long process for me. I first started taking pictures for fun as a hobby, just as a way of seeing myself in a different light, hoping to get myself confidence up. I think the first time I signed with an agency, quote unquote, because he lasted about three months, then they closed. I think I was 18. And then at my first internship in Paris, when I was in business school, I was looking for ways to make money. Cause my internship wasn't paid. And I came across this agency that I, so I don't know where on Facebook or somewhere that was promoting, that they were looking for plus size models. And that was the first time, you know, in a while that I've heard of that. And I was 20 at the time. So I went there, met with them, they offered me a contract right there.
Clem:
And so I started working maybe once or twice a year, like just when I was in Paris. But like, [inaudible] like those little like catalogs from France and it was fun, but it was just a way to just make a little bit of pocket money and just boost my confidence and just experience something else. And then when I moved to Paris for my first job in 2010, I think it was when I graduated, I started going to more castings and do a few more things because I was in Paris and then I tested it for this brand called [inaudible]. And at the time it was the first e-commerce specifically for size 42 plus. And I got the casting and the whole casting was about Ben saying in your underwear on like the Beyonce song, I was like, it was really good. So I, it, I got the job.
Clem:
And so it was TV commercial that ended up coming out on French TV when I had already moved to Miami. So like in 2011, that was my first like big job. I would say that came with a lot of critiques commands, everything. And then when I first moved here, the same month I moved in Miami actually sent a few photo to American apparel cause they were doing a contest called the next big thing. So they were looking for like their big size girl to also model body suits, which is what I did for cast a Luna. So I was like, yeah, that's my thing. And so same thing, they just call me back a couple of days later saying, Hey, you want our contest to be our next EGD and fly to LA to shoot the campaign, blah, blah, blah. I was like super excited.
Clem:
It was my first thing. Then when the campaign came out, it was in every store and billboards and stuff like that. And so this agency in Miami showed images and then found me on Facebook and asked me if I wanted to work with them. And so they offered me a contract and a visa and all that. And I was like, perfect. So then two years into that, I decided to move to New York because he was just the best, you know, solution for me if I wanted to take this seriously. So I've been with my agency now in New York with muse for like eight years. And it's been doing great like three months in, could it start living off of just modeling and it just got better and better like since then every year is getting better. So it's been great. That's fantastic. Yeah.
Anne:
To know what you enjoy about modeling.
Clem:
Hmm. Good question. What I enjoy the most is the freedom. Just working for myself pretty much not having to, you know, just have a boss to talk to or really anyone to report to. That's great. Even though agents sometimes are seen like bosses, even though they work for me. So they're really not. But sometimes that relationship is a bit interesting. I love, I think I love the traveling a lot. Just being able to pop in plays and being everywhere, even though this is something I hate, cause my body aches because of it, but I just loved the opportunity to go in countries and meet different people and speak different languages. Then I love all the opportunities that's been, you know, it's been giving me like being able to like not only be a face, but also be a voice talk to other woman, like create new businesses because of it. And finally I love the money because I mean, it's great money. I don't work much, but I make a decent amount. So I love that, that I can have a lot of free time to do other stuff because of that. So that's, that's really great.
Anne:
And I mean, I have to ask the biggest challenges about modeling. What would you think the,
Clem:
I mean the biggest challenges is definitely the schedule. I mean, it's okay for me because I'm used to it and I like, like the predictability of everything, but it is so unreliable and so unpredictable, like right now it's covered time. So I have nothing to do is great. I can plan ahead and normal times I can't confirm anything more than a few days in advance because I probably am going to have to cancel it or move it, but my schedule moves so fast. And so last minute that it's really impossible to plan. So I know a lot of people are really anxious about that and I know it drives my mom crazy because she's just like, can't even imagine how I live, you know, like things like that. It's, it's really hard. And also, I would say for me personally, it's not a problem. The pressure of just conforming and the pressure of being judged on your physic and not so much on everything else you have to bring to the table.
Clem:
So that's, that's been a bit of an issue for me at first, but I think he really helped me like just developing my own voice and things on the side and knowing that now when I book campaigns, like I know it's because they think I'm pretty and I'm going to make the clothes look good, but also they want to hear my voice, what I have to say. And they want to associate with me because of that as well. So I think that's really helped me, but I know a lot of girls really suffer from that just being seen as objects and just bodies and being moved around and not having so much say into, you know, what goes on behind the scenes. But yeah, I mean, it's also tiring. The traveling is insane. You definitely need a good chiropractor, a good massage therapist, a lot of yoga and [inaudible] to compensate because it's just, it just hurts. Like, you know, you're sitting or standing on heels all the time and it's a stuff
Anne:
That makes sense. So when I was going through articles and then I saw a couple of your covers, I mean, Maddie falls, I think you were on the grimmer off. Tell me what was it like to be on a cover?
Clem:
Ah, that was fun. Definitely a good one to be on the French cover, especially just because, you know, it's been so tough. Like I grew up in France and really tough. Never seeing myself represented anywhere, especially in women's magazines. So yeah, when that came around, it was, it was really exciting to be on the cover of a French magazine and knowing that like a lot of French women are going to get to see this, see someone that looks a little bit more like them probably than their models that they usually see on those covers. So that was really exciting and he definitely felt really good. The editor was great. And so we just work together and pick the brand that I liked and that I like to work with. And that I know our goods, I had a lot of say in that whole story, which was really exciting.
Clem:
And yeah, it was just kind of like not a revenge, you know, this feeling of like, you made fun of me my whole life I suffered because how French people was judging me. But then I ended up on a French cover, you know? And, and so, and that's the same feeling I get when I get on French TV and I get to like represent plus size woman for ranch woman and is great for us in France, which is very, very new. So that's definitely exciting. Probably just why I'm even given a voice is because I am, you know, pretty good in my own truth right now, but I wasn't always because you know, when I used to live in France, I wasn't because society didn't let me. And when I moved to Miami, that's when the change happened really for me. So that was interesting to just like how your change of environment can really your outlook on yourself and how well you feel in your own body.
Clem:
And that's why I usually say to girls that keep asking me like, you know, what's your sacred blah, blah, blah. I'm like, it's not really any secret. You just have to understand that your environment and others are the issue, not yourself. And so when you understand that, that really helps because then you know how to quiet the voices that are negative around you and how to change your environment without moving across the world necessarily, but just change your environment so that you're in a positive, loving, and vibe, like an environment that values you, instead of trying to destroy you or make you doubt yourself, bully just have a way to see how you shine and make sure that they want to take that shine down. So if you don't shine so much, you're probably not going to get bullied. You know what I mean? Because, and that's why a lot of women also feel like they can't shine as bright as they feel they can because they are afraid that people are going to get after them, especially all the women.
Clem:
Like I know growing up for me, it was really hard because I was always a very like bubbly and shiny and like really like type of person, but a lot, a lot, a lot of time I had to play shy and I had to play dumb and I had to play a lot of things just to not attract attention, just so I wouldn't get bullied. So I know a lot of women are feeling like that. And it sucks because if you are your true self, but your, whether it's too emotional or you don't feel strong enough to defend yourself, or you're just too sensitive to defend yourself, then you just get bullied and there's nothing you can fucking do about it because bullies just pick the brightest person in the room and try to bring it down. You know, that's why they do.
Anne:
I just started in a book called fierce conversations. And the, the writer mentioned something saying that one of the reasons people are not having fierce conversations is because if they do, they will be seen of course. And of course it's much easier not to have deep conversations. It's much easier not to shine because then you're not seeing.
Clem:
Yeah. And you're not, yeah. You're not seeing, you know, judge, you're not criticized, you know, and it's, you're kind of safe in a way. So that's
Anne:
So, but the thing is the first time I saw you was that I saw your eyes [inaudible]
Clem:
Yeah. Some Jerome painting. Is that the first time you saw me,
Anne:
For sure. That was before I met you in New York. So for our listeners, I was organizing an event in Miami during art basil and the exhibition that was planned, the artists had to pull out, we didn't know what to do. And I knew your home, like, Hey, who's the, an amazing painter and a friend. And so I reached out to him and said, here's the gallery size? Do you have any paintings? And I selected some of the paintings and your eyes were the bright shining star of event there. You were in the center of it.
Clem:
I remember seeing it cause I wasn't there at the time, but Jehovah had told me about it. And I remember like Lucy had sent me like videos and photos of the expo. And I was like, so excited. And at the time I still didn't know who Jay roam, like how big he was really. And so I was like, Oh, when you're done, can I have my painting? It was like, it's so far, I don't know many thousand dollars someone has my face. Someone has my eye. I was just like really excited. But yeah. Okay. I didn't know. That was the first time you saw me.
Anne:
Cool. So you're a model in front of a photographer. What was the experience for you to see yourself?
Clem:
First time I ever met him and went through his that's a year and we talked for like five hours and I took pictures of me and it was the best day. And then it was really like just seeing myself painted, just felt so much different than seeing a picture or a video it's like someone was taking a picture of my soul and then put it on a painting, even though he did it on a picture, it's like a painted what is seen, what is so inside, you know? And he just, it just, it was gorgeous. I mean, and that's why it's so good is because he's painting to me are so emotional. You know, like I saw myself in another way and I've been wanting to get one of this, one of his paintings since then. I can't wait to get my own.
Anne:
So I want to go back to another question that I'd written and it was kind of, what is it like to be seen? I read your point of view on a lot of plus size model being used for naked shots or very close to naked shots and feeling very objectified. There was a super interesting interview of you in the cut. I'm going to quote you here. You said we're not treated the same way in a tutorial. They want skinny girl clothes because it looks great. They want big girls naked because they look like art. It's a weird way to see a full body, which is so annoying to me that there's still a lot of work to do on this, but it's moving. And that was a couple of years ago. So how do you feel it's moved on since then? And do you still feel very objectified in that way?
Clem:
So first part, yes, it is. I mean, it is accurate. This is just fact, you know, like there is more plus size models in magazine and editorials that are shown naked or close to naked, then closed. It's still, it's still facts. It was way worse than at the time of the interview. A couple of years ago, I would say the last two years have been huge for plus size models. We've been in close editorial, beauty, editorial, jury editorials. We've been used more and more for things that have nothing to do with our size or the shape of our bodies. So that's been really good and it's, it's getting better every day. So it's good. But it's still very true that we are objectified because of like fetishism or whatever it is. I feel like also because designers, editors, people don't know what the hell to do with our body because we don't fit any samples.
Clem:
They're just, Oh, let's put her naked. Like she's like art, right? Because I wasn't Shelly and all that. It's beautiful. It's like there are regional female shape. It used to be the only way we were accepted. It is getting way better. But I mean, it's, if I put a picture of me in a dress, I mean, sure that like the dress going to get some love, but they don't really care as much to, to see clothes because it's not that there's no shock factor. And I think that's also a reality of just like our society, where shock factors, everything and a plus size body. When you see the skin almost naked or naked is way bigger of a shock factor than if you see a skinny girl naked, because a skinny girl naked is like, okay, nobody's shocked anymore. You see a big girl naked. It's not only way more skin, but it also a lot of curves and it's stuff that are not, I would say hugely accepted. So when you see that you're like, Whoa, what are because she's big or whatever, because you think she's brave or crazy or, yeah. Beautiful. But she would be just as beautiful if she would have clothes on.
Anne:
I agree with you. I have a feeling that it might have something to do, but the vulnerability that we don't necessarily see in the, the regular models or skinny models, because they've been doing this for years, like you said, there's no surprise. We've seen him everywhere. Yeah. So there's like a permissiveness around their objectives, which activities this year.
Clem:
Yeah. I'll take the fine.
Anne:
Our own objectification has been going on for years. So it's now almost like washed over whilst yours is maybe more prominent. It's interesting. Cause I was thinking once in a while, when I become self-critical, when I see my shape in the mirror and I feel like there's a belt somewhere and I hear a critical voice, I kind of hold for a second. And I'm like some of my closest friends that I think of them was gorgeous, beautiful, sunny, radiant people. I know that none of them are perfect. First of all, we're not really in that age group where it perfect Lynn so much. And although that happens and I thought, why am I judging myself differently than how much love I have for these other,
Clem:
For sure. It's really hard to do. That's one of the things I get the most from girls like on socials and writing to me is like, you know, how do I quiet the voice? How do I just am? Okay. We want to look like, how am I okay with cellulite? Or am I okay with roles? And it's exactly what you say. It's about accepting it. You know, it doesn't matter that moment, really few necessarily love it or not. Cause to me loving it, it's the next step. It's more accepting it as the hardest one. If you're able to just say and just like accept it, regardless of what it is, what shape, what size, what weight, then that's a huge step. And then loving will come with time. But accepting it is really, really important. And just like you said, like, wouldn't you be so harsh on your friends if they were just like, you know, you, wouldn't, that's really efficient.
Clem:
Like thinking like that will actually get you like to feel better about yourself. Cause I feel like that mostly, like I don't have any more issues with my body or the way I look anymore, but I'm struggling with a lot of, you know, mental issues and how I see myself. And so I'm trying to do the same, like whatever, being so harsh on my best friends, if they were feeling like that or thinking like that. No I wouldn't. And I'm like, why am I beating myself up again? You know? So I'm trying to do that as well for eight works for anything really like doing that, like just like judge yourself, just like you would do your best friends. And then you would probably be way less judgmental towards yourself.
Anne:
The other day I was teaching a mindfulness class to a beginner's group in the work that I was doing. I was introduced to this notion and I think you're going to enjoy it. Thank you. I think it's going to work right in that sweet spot. So I can't remember which teacher brought this to me, but it was so brilliant. They said, imagine that the voice inside your head is a physical person. Like it's someone who lives in your house with you. And once you personally find this and you listen to the voice and you imagine this is actually living with you, would you ever let them live with you?
Clem:
No. I mean, I mean, I would argue that, but,
Anne:
But listen to what you say to you. Yeah. I feel like we're always worse with ourselves than we are with any.
Clem:
No, for sure. That's so true where the worst what's the worst,
Anne:
But the thing that's cool is once you know that and you're like, Oh, so next time the voice.
Clem:
Yeah. One of the events that we had with AWP, I had a girl that had a really good advice. She's like I gave my insecurity a name. So I don't, I don't remember what he was like Joe or Jamie or so she's every time it's talking to me, she was like, shut up Joe. And she said he works really well. And so I thought that was really nice, but like I tried that and it was, it was kind of good,
Anne:
Like a Spanish name and Taleo enough.
Clem:
Yeah. That would be great. Yeah.
Anne:
That's, that's a really good one. I had heard Liz Gilbert's, you know, the writer. So she was talking about the creative process and how hard it was. Cause when we're fearful, fear is just like taking over. One of the mindfulness practices is to actually acknowledge and issue like fear. Thank you so much. I know you're here for a reason, but she was very gentle. Me and creativity. We're going to go on the road. It's going to be really beautiful journey and you can come, but you will not be steering the wheel seat that you want to protect me. That's very kind of you, but we're being daring and bold and we're going to be doing this. And I felt, yeah. Huh. My fears are often hiding. They're like this guys they're dressed up. So you can't really quite see what's going on.
Clem:
Yeah. And it's really hard to identify them sometimes. Like you said, because a friend actually really recently asked me, what are you scared of? I don't think I'm scared of anything like this. Nothing that I can think of that I'm like, Oh, I'm so scared. You know, there's nothing that's like tangible that I'm scared off. But then I thought about it. I ended up saying like, actually the only thing I'm scared of is not to live to my full potential. And that's been like since I was a kid, you know, just like being afraid, literally petrify of our under-delivering life choices, work, personal life, dog walk like anything. I can't do anything because of it. Sometimes it keeps me from even doing anything at all because I'm scared that I want to do my best. And so sometimes it's really hard to identify, like I was here sitting like an idiot, like I don't know what I'm scared of. And he sounded so like cocky that I are not scared of anything. But then, you know, I've thought about this and this kind of just like applies to every single part of my life. So I guess in some way I'm scared of a lot of things because of that, it's really hard to get over it.
Anne:
Hmm. I think that there's the cousin of the fear that you're describing, which is perfectionism. Perfectionism is one of the ways that we stop ourselves from doing anything
Clem:
To me. I don't know if it would be like perfectionism, but it's more just doing, doing what's best for me. So it's not necessarily perfect, but it's like at least being content and satisfied with myself, like living up to my expectations. That's really hard because we have way higher expectations for ourselves than we have for others. And I would say if I had lived just like to the expectations that I have from my friends, Oh my God, like, I'll be golden, but no, for me it's like, it's more so it's more and it's always harder as tiring.
Anne:
Don't worry. I'm the same. So following a bit on that conversation, I wanted to touch a little bit on the beauty business because prior to being a consultant, obviously I was at [inaudible] and there was a lot of buzz online. After you posted a video that you had done in Paris wearing the brand new kitchen, original lipstick. And obviously I was the head of global communications at the time. So I'm pretty, I'm pretty aware of what the content of the coverage was, which was in large part, it's completely fabricated by the press. But the New York times that caught my eye because I read earlier today, I really, really great article where the conversation touches, not just the plus size models in the fashion industry, but also travels into the beauty industry. And I felt that there was something super interesting. There, there was such a huge buzz and there was no messaging either from your end or RN that was communicating any kind of actual beauty endorsement. Yeah. I was wondering how do you feel the relationship is today with the beauty?
Clem:
I mean it's surely way different than it was back in the days when this came out, it was 2015. That feels like forever ago. But also like it was yesterday because I remember that weekend when he, the first out people came out and then by the time I was done reading it and it was another 10 and I spent, I remember I was so scared just because I was like, well, that's not true. I remember my friend was telling me, yeah, but they're not saying anything bad. I'm like, yeah, but that's not true. And I remember spending the whole weekend in my bed, like petrified, cause I didn't know what to do with it. Like, cause people were emailing me and calling me and I was just like, no,
Anne:
But the truth is when something is touches close to home for the consumer or the reader that's and I feel bad saying it in pandemic times, that's when stuff goes viral, there was a bunch of other beautiful images that were released by other people who are close to the brand. We had seeded the lipstick just to see how people liked it. Yours was the one that wins.
Clem:
Yeah. I think it's just the need, you know, that it's still relevant today. But especially back in the day, it's the need of seeing imagery. They're not only Israel feels reliable and also is disrupting in some way because a very luxurious French brand that is allegedly associating with a plus size model that that would still today that has never happened. And that would probably never happen anytime soon. I feel like people just believe what they want to see and they were really happy about that. And so they just decided that's just what it was. I guess.
Anne:
I see what you're saying, but we had posted other people's stuff as well. I think that you struck gold for a couple of reasons. First you looked really beautiful in that video. Just that say
Clem:
Yeah, it was great. Thank you.
Anne:
I think second, which I did not expect or think of at the time it was video rather than photography, which everybody else had done photography. So maybe that just gave them a sense of it's an ad. And then the third thing is you were French and it wasn't Paris.
Clem:
Yeah. Yeah. But I was just like once the whole thing had passed, it was a lot of interview of like saying what actually happened versus what they thought happened. So it definitely got some press from it. I'm not complaining. I think it was good in the way that it really showed what the people are craving real people that look like actual customers because you know, that video was taken an I 10 minutes with a friend. There was no Photoshop, no color, no nothing. So it was real, you know, it was just, and it was such a great lipstick bite away. And since then, there's less than this Photoshop. Even from big brands, maybe not like luxury beauty brand with this whole, all the world. But like for most brands is less than as Photoshop. They're using people that look like you and I and everyone else more and more because there's body diversity.
Clem:
Sure. But as also just like, relate-ability like, well wants to see themselves in ads. So I think there's definitely an effort that's been done from brands to like listen to what customers want. And they want real people. They want real woman, they want real imageries. They want diversity, they want representation and they want all that. And they're asking for it more and more because of social media. So now it's become really hard to ignore what customer wants now, brands and magazines and everything have to listen to them. Or if not, they will get backlash. The word does definitely change in that area. For sure.
Anne:
Now you've just mentioned sort of more diversity being requested by the customer. And I think it's time that you should tell us more about the old woman project. So do you want to tell us a bit about the Genesis of it and what do you guys do?
Clem:
Yeah, so the all woman project started and about four years ago, 2016, the original idea behind it was that my cofounder at the time, cause not with us anymore, but Charlie and I were both models and she was straight sized and I was plus size. And when we met, we were just talking about how we never get to model together us or any other woman of color or a woman of visibility. We are all models and we're all women and we're, we're just like selling the same thing. But somehow we're put in different boxes. We wanted to do something in order to like disrupt the fashion and beauty industry and the media and letting them know that all bodies are good bodies and they can all look gorgeous in the same picture because at the time, like all the body positivity campaigns and movement that happened had very, almost childish imagery in some way.
Clem:
Never glamorous, never sexy, never fun. It was always just like a collection of straight bodies next to each other. Like not looking cool. You know what I mean? So like body positive was not cool. Why can't it be? Why can't it be workable worthy? And that was our whole thing. You know, I contacted my friends. There were all gorgeous women, photographers, videographers models, influencers. And we put them all in a room for a whole weekend and we shot over two days videos and photos. It was pretty, they're gorgeous. We got to do something with this. And so I contacted the editors for teen Vogue and Vogue and the cut and blonde more like all those people I've been working with for a few years already. But, and I was like, here's a Google drive link with all the images that would just shop here's our slogan.
Clem:
Here's what we want to call herself. And this is the reason why we're doing this. And so we send them the SIL folder and within 24 hours we had like people fighting over exclusive there's there is a demand and there's a need of this type of imagery. And so we went live for me with, I think it was teen Vogue and in Vogue and an InStyle. And then it had some video, it went viral like over 500 million impression in a week, everywhere every country in the world was posting about it. And every language was great. And then a few weeks pass and we had like brands, partnership requests. We had a bunch of media requests and most importantly, we had women writing to us through our Facebook and Instagram account that we had just launched. They were like, so what's next? And that's when we started thinking like, what is our goal?
Are we a brand or a movement or a charity? All we, we didn't really agree, Charlie and I on what we wanted to do next, I wanted to build it into a charity and organization that has four goal to help women and to promote diversity and representation through beauty industry, all industry related to media and society in general. And so that's what ultimately became like a year later we registered as five, a one C three. So we're a charity. And we started focusing on in person events. We started local groups in different parts, different cities in the country of women that meet every single month as a support group while before COVID right. So now we had to just like slightly reinvent ourselves. So instead of in person meeting and events, now we're doing weekly interviews on Thursdays and 4:00 PM EST and also weekly classes and workshop with different women that inspire us from Pilates is to yoga to shake your booty class to mentorship.
Clem:
And so, yeah, we're just, we're just really trying to uplift and inspire and support women and help them really feel like represented and loved in so many ways. But yeah, we're planning, you know, and, and so we're looking forward to like going back to those, like in person meetings, because online is great. And I feel like we've been doing a lot just in person. It's just something that is very special, you know, connecting like most of our events and meeting is about sharing stories and connecting on a very deep, personal level about issues that go from mental health to body positivity, to, you know, women in the workplace to discriminations. Like we talk about so much and I feel like face to face emotional connection that we get there. It's like really different than the one we get online. So we're very excited about going back there, but we also produce a lot of campaigns.
Clem:
So that's where we get our imagery. We work with a bunch of like young activists, young woman to create our imagery and a great like sponsors and brands to help us grow as well. It's amazing. So we had to kind of put a pause on all of this first we got hacked and then Codman happened, okay. 2020, like reset, we'll see you on zoom, we'll start over next year. You know, that's kind of what happened for us. It was, you know, it's been, it's been top, thank God I still have, like, I have one full time employee and she's still here and I still can pay her. So that's all that matters. But just looking forward to creating amazing imagery and seeing our girls again in real life and just growing.
Anne:
Sure. I read in one of the interviews and I thought it was a beautiful, beautiful terminology used. I read that what your goal was to help young women know that that dreams are limitless. That basically the sky's the limit. And I thought that was so beautiful. I think that was in the Vogue article. And so I was wondering how do you get that message across? Is it only through the imagery? Do people solely contact you through Instagram? Or how do you think those campaigns can evolve? Maybe even outside of us in the future? Cause I feel like this, I would have needed that message when I was a teenager or young woman. So I care
Clem:
It's through material and that's the reason why, you know, I created that and, and I worked so hard on it because I wish I had that when I was growing up because I didn't like myself and I fought because I was fat. I will not be able to get the best husband or the best job or the best life or the best, anything really, not only through those imageries. I think our imagery is very diverse and we make sure we provide representation for girls and women that don't feel themselves seen, but we also provide access to mentors, access to like women are extremely inspiring from all different kinds of backgrounds that are now in all kinds of different industries, but all very successful and inspiring. So our goal is just to like shine the light on those women. A lot of women coming from minority backgrounds, women of color.
And that's really important for us because we believe that if you don't see yourself or presented, you can't really project yourself to be what you want to be. So it's very important that we shine light on all kinds of women that are successful in what they're doing, because it's probably going to inspire a little girl or young woman that's watching us and that's following us to be just like her or to know that she can do anything just like her, regardless of the color of her skin for size or what's her background. You know, that's the way that we do it in our events as well. We always have great speakers from all kinds of background, doing all kinds of things, just to make sure that, you know, with touch as many girls and young women as possible to really inspire them because we also believe that self-love and self-acceptance is a first step to being able to really do anything at all in life. And if you don't have that, you won't ever take the steps, you need to be happy. So it's really important for us that we get that. We get them to inspiration. They need the visuals they need, so they can feel represented, filled, love, and developed self-acceptance and go wherever they want to go.
Anne:
How young are the girls who joined you? Do you, you don't know. Really?
Clem:
I just wondered, I would say, well, on average it's anywhere between 17 and 35 is like our biggest chunk, but we do have like girls around 10, 12, like I have like kids, I'm friends of their daughters follow us. So we have young kids as well. And we also have woman's all way over 50 because we really trying to talk to all kinds of women. So depending on the campaigns that we have right now, like our last campaign was like with young activists. So those would be like younger people. But then in the previous one, that was beauty. We had a model that was 72 years old. So we're really trying to diversify as much like roll it. It makes sense. And everyone is represented.
Speaker 1:
Well, I think that there's a sense, you know, some of the best ever commercials that we see, we get that bond, it kind of comes through the images. And I thought that was really well
Clem:
It's, it's very real as well. Cause I feel like I've modeled a lot of those campaign where we're like to pretend like we're friends and getting really close. And that was really awkward when you have never met those girls before and you don't really like them or care, you know, I think what really is transparent in our images is that we really do care and we really do have fun. Like I've been speaking to a lot of our campaigns girls over the past few weeks, every stars they asked for was speaking to an inspiring woman. And a lot of them have been in our campaigns previously. And almost all of them said that their AWP shoot was one of their best days they ever have because of the community, because they felt like even though they never met those girls that were with her, they became sisters that day by sharing experiences and you know, sharing sometimes tears and moment of joys.
Clem:
And I mean, our shoes are really long and it's like, you spend 10 hours, you know, on set and you just get, you know, you get close, like you spend hours sitting on a couch waiting and you just speak a lot and you exchange. And our shoes are really awesome. And I miss them so much. And I don't know when next we're going to be able to have 20 people on set at once, but I really, really look forward to it because it's such special science. Oh my God, you just gave me an idea actually, because we're developing our first line of merch. And I mean, we have some really cool prints that I could barely be gorgeous on a math. Oh my God, that'd be so cute. A campaign with all like AWP masks and all girls. Like I talked to my assistant and rabbits. That sounds really cool. Actually. I think we can make it happen.
Anne:
So one of the campaigns I saw, it was shot in swimsuits. There was an amazing Muslim model.
Clem:
Oh yeah. Yes. That was our campaign with refinery stunning. Yeah.
Anne:
It was fascinating to me because I felt it was an even broader conversation. You were opening because, because you were touching outside of the sort of commercial realm of modeling and womanhood. I felt that this one was super, I don't know. It touched me. It was super special. So I had a couple of questions for you. You can pick whichever one interests you most, or you know that me and this podcast, we have, we like to touch a bit on mindfulness. And I was wondering, how do you approach a shoot like this? And how do you help other women feel comfortable strong? Is there a positive mantra? Is there any kind of tool that has helped you in your own confidence that you were able to imbue them with? Because it felt it was a beautiful sign of the times. It was very human.
Clem:
Yeah. He was. I mean, honestly to me, the experience is not, I mean, it is about the final images, but the only way to get that is about the people onset to relationship that everyone has. That's the kindness, the care, the love it's really like the language that we use is different than any other set. It's really much about the team. That's why all of our shoots are all women. So it's pretty much all women, all creative, all people behind everything is all women. And it's very important for us to have that sisterhood and the team before we even start shooting. I talk mostly personally with every single member of the team to make sure they know that it's not your regular shoe.
Clem:
You can be talking to people, expectedly, like you have to care. You have to like take time for food and drinks and things. That's why it's such a great day for everyone. It's because if you're used to be on set, it's totally different than any other set you've been on. And if you're not used to be on set, it's not so scary that you feel shy or that it's still very human. I mean, our last shoot was really interesting because there was two days. And on the first day there was a lot of girls, it was open casting call that we had done and we had set it. And so most of them didn't have like experience on camera. A lot of my interns did the shoot as well. And they were just scared as fuck. They didn't know how to move and what, where do I put my hands?
Clem:
How do I look? And so that's, those moments are really good because both the photographer and I, and some of the girls that had a little bit more experience were just like going in front of them and okay. Just like mimic me. What if you do that? Or just when you were getting insecurity with like, you look so gorgeous that just fits you so well, it's really about that energy. Our students are really like all sister Ruth and it's all loving and kindness. And I think this is why the images look so good very honestly, because we're not doing anything too different than any other shoe thing to feel onset is very different. And he makes the girl feel really, really comfortable. You know, that's what I want. And again, like, I want them to feel comfortable for images, but also I want them to be inspired by the experience so they can go out and talk about us, talk about what we do and be an advocate for us. So I want to make sure that they feel their best.
Anne:
I'm still not asked that question. It was true once in a while, something just, you know, grabs you more than something else. And I'm glad I pulled it, that thread. I appreciate that so much because I think, you know, this about me. Kindness is something that is a value that I feel is very, is not prominent enough in our society. And we did see a lot of kindness come out of the hard time. The harsh times I could say that we've all been going through. That's hope that there's more and more kindness coming. So you also an entrepreneur, you were for many years of blogger, I'd love to know where, where, where do you imagine Clementine to go? Where, where are you going to be post COVID and a year or five years of 10 years time? How do you imagine your future? God, I'm not sure. Like,
Clem:
I don't even know where I'm going to be next week because things are moving so fast right now. Like I've been out of work for two months nonstop, but it's very unsettling and it's very weird, but I think like that's just where longterm, like there's things that I keep working on regardless of what's going on in the world. So, you know, I keep working on AWP, as I say, we're launching our March to June and we're planning post covet partnerships and great stuff. So hopefully that's going to keep growing. And I'm really excited about growing that movement a lot, you know, hopefully modeling still gonna be here for me a few more years. It's great. So I just hope to do that for maybe another 10 years or so. That'd be great. Yeah. So I can work on everything else, which includes writing a book that I started still working on that, working on a book, which probably is going to be a little different now because so much has happened since I first started it working on my first line too.
Clem:
You know, I want to make jumpsuits and restore yeah. Jumpsuit resorts when you wear them. So well, I know of it. Yeah. So, I mean, I want to do that. It's like one of my dream and it sounds crazy because we all know small designers don't do well and it's really hard and it cost a lot of money, but I just still want to do it so bad so I will do it and we'll see how it goes. And then I want to make my ice cream brand in my forties. I want to have my own ice cream brand or like a shop in Wynwood in Miami and then explored it and have it in every like freezers of the world. Yeah. Mostly sorbets made with herbs from the South of France. My favorite sorbets are like fruit and herbs mix. So like strawberry Bazell Africa time. And so I have an ice cream machine I'm practicing with when I have a couple of kids and they're running around and I'll have to go save recipes, then that's what I want to do. So yeah,
Anne:
I have so much respect for that idea.
Clem:
I love gelato, but the best one I had was in Rome and it was this little place and it was a Gorgonzola gelato.
Anne:
I remember you telling me about it. I've tried since then. And we, it wasn't the same place I assume, but we tried it and it really left us with an after taste…
Clem:
It's really strong, like play around if you're not used to it do not play around. But to me it was so shocking. I like the taste, literally. I think my face one night mine was just literally just say Gorgonzola was sweet. So you had the strength, like the really smelly strength of the Gorgonzola, but then you want sweet cream. Like they have to taste this kind of sweet cream. I love it. Oh my God. That was my favorite. That was by far the craziest ice cream I ever had. S
Anne:
I get that. I only have a couple of more questions for you. And then I have some quick-fire questions.
First of all, what does femininity mean to you? from gelato to femininity?...
Clem:
Well, it goes together. Sexy topics. Yeah. Femininity. It's a very interesting term because I don't consider myself feminine in many ways. I'm pretty much a tomboy that likes to wear jumpsuits and sneakers and, you know, get into dirt. My vision of feminine has changed a lot over the years. And now I do think that a woman that's feminine is a woman who embraces ourselves, regardless of what herself is. She doesn't have to wear lipstick or dresses or BQ. It doesn't matter as long as she's one with herself. And she's like gorgeous in a way that's more like a sunshine, seven gorgeous. I think that's what makes her feminine. I remember meeting all this woman through all the AWP meetings and stuff and thinking like she's so feminine or she's still like such a gorgeous woman being perfect, same core of your true self. And like the woman is inside of you. Cause I just, so many women are trying to be someone else and you can tell, you know, by the way they dress and the way they act. And when you find one that's just like fully herself and he just shines. And then it's that's I think that's great femininity
Anne:
Again. I'm so glad I asked. That makes so much sense to me as well. I think being whole in yourself, I was going to talk about integration earlier. Cause sometimes I feel like we're so split between all of our various personas, who we are work at home with the lover, with the friends, with when you just link all of these pieces back together and you accept all of them. And then you talked about shining again. And that makes me think, obviously now I've seen the video with gusta Luna, and I have a feeling that the reason why it did really, really well and well you're dancing is because you were shining through the camera. Yeah. When I see the Catalina video and I listened to what you said you felt was femininity to me, it looks a lot like how you looked in that video. Yeah,
Clem:
That's true. But I felt really good in that moment. But then at the time I wasn't really feeling like that. I was pretty much like fake it till you make it. You know, I was still, I was 21, 22. I didn't love myself. I didn't accept myself. And I was really, really harsh on myself. And so it's funny how I was still able to like show that image. But inside I was, I wasn't whole, I wasn't fully myself.
Anne:
Yeah. I understand. I have a feeling it's also age that helps a lot with that.
Clem:
Age. Definitely helps. Oh my God. In so many ways, I just, I'm so grateful that I'm getting older and I just love who I am more and more, and I'm just more accepting and kinder the older I get and I'm actually excited to get older because I think it's only going to get better and so sort of important granted, but, and sometimes it is the only way, like, you know, sometimes you can give all the advice in the world, but really the only thing you need is time.
Anne:
Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you publicly, you announced recently, I think it was mainly via your Instagram that you'd stepped out of your long-term relationship for really serious reasons. And I know that there's lawyers involved and I want to be careful about how we talk about this, not to make things hard for you or legally challenging, but I thought maybe there was something that you wanted, you wanted to share about the experience anyway.
Clem:
Yeah. I mean, I did share on my Instagram, my personal story, what I went through and you know, how I felt, and I've done quite a lot of work with different charities and organizations that are helping women, a victim of abuse of all sorts. And you know, I'm planning to do more public speaking around it. You know, it's really hard to just like, don't realize you're a victim of abuse until you realize that you are a victim of abuse. I've never ever fought that. That was my case until I spoke to people for the first time I spoke about what was going on. And then it was so clear for them that it was the case that it was shocking. That was life changing to just like speak to those hotlines and hear what they had to say about what was going on. And I know stuff were wrong, but I would have never fought.
Clem:
I could put that kind of name on it. And that's something I just like since I came out with a story, so many women that I know and so many that I don't know, reached out to me with their story, a lot of them are still in their situations and need help and advice. And so that's been great to be able to have them in some ways to connect them with the right people and the right organization to get the help they need. Yeah. I've been, it's really still, it's still really tough for me to talk about because I'm still going through it heavily. You know, I have like a four day on Monday, so I am still like really actively in it and dealing with it and all the consequences of it. So I look forward for it to be in the past, but I don't think it's going to be anytime soon, but it was important for me to come out at this point because I felt like I had tipped everything I've been through for years and years to myself, because I was scared to be a victim.
Clem:
And then I was ashamed that I accepted so much. And, and so I didn't speak. And I think that was one of the reason why I went through this for so long is because I didn't want to share what was really going on. And so at first I wanted to wait, so it was all over to talk about it. But then I was like, no, like, you know, I wish I wish I would have read something like that may be a few years ago. So I would have been out of it for longer. So that's, that's why I shared it. You know, it was not without consequences, fences that I shared it and it was, but I don't regret any of it. And I'm so glad I did. And, and I know he helped women already because I've talked to some in my highlights, there's a private group. Chat for women are, you know, victim of abuse or have question about it. I also weekly, I share resources on my story and disciplining my highlights for the U S or the UK for Europe. Plenty of resources of, you know, I'm just really open, like plenty of women came and asked me a question right after that. And I'm open to talk with them anytime. So yeah. You know, I'm getting over it. So now I'm just looking forward to helping others with it. Sure.
Anne:
And I would love to ask you to send me the details of all of these different resources to put in the show notes as well.
Clem:
Yeah, of course. Yes. I send it to you.
Anne:
What sound or noise do you love?
Clem:
I loved the noise of my fingers going into raw meat when I'm making meatballs. Crows. Yes. So gross. But I am, I'm a vegetarian. I know. I know, but it's like a nice Kuwait. Oh, I love it. Amazing.
Anne:
Could you also tell me, what are you not very good at?
Clem:
Oh my God. So many things, mostly growing plants. I'm trying so hard. I've never had that many plants in my whole life, but it's so hard to keep them alive. I don't know. They don't respond to me.
Anne:
Hm. That's so strange.
Clem:
I'm trying, I'm trying. It's getting better, but what
Clem:
The book is next to your bed or what, what are you reading right now?
Clem:
I am on and off reading the five love languages. Oh, nice. Yeah. I haven't, I, it, a while ago I started a while ago and then I did the test and everything. It's interesting. It's really actually, I really like it. Cause then you can just realize that, you know, all your life, you have not been loved the way you want to be loved. And that's why you've been so unhappy. Not necessarily because the person was wrong just the way they loved you was wrong or at least not what you need. And so it's kind of eye opening. It's really interesting.
Anne:
Who do you admire?
Clem:
Hmm. A lot of people, I mean, mostly I admire young woman are in my circles and that are activists in their own. Right. And are standing up for the woman. There's a list. Like I just went on a live with Chloe she's is 12 years old activist from LA. Like she's making masks, she's working on schools in Ghana. Like she's having her community for everything around COVID. She's amazing. And another one is Haley. She's another young activist. I think she's 18. She's writing a vegan cook book, like inspiring a community, educating kids about health. I'm just really into young women that are doing shit. I was not that active when I was their age. And I was, I'm just in awe of what their generation is doing.
Anne:
So you were in Toulouse without the internet, so, yeah. Sorry, just bringing it right back.
Clem:
True.
Anne:
They sound amazing. I would love to have the details for their website or Instagram and stuff to check them out for myself.
What's recipe you can make with your eyes closed.
Clem:
Oh my God. Bolognaise I've been doing Bolinas every single weekend for the last four weeks. So I think I get those down now and it's like freaking perfect.
Anne:
Awesome. Just two more. What would you save it to your younger self?
Clem:
I would say stand up for yourself.
Anne:
Beautiful. And what brings you happiness?
Clem:
Baguette brings me happiness and sunrise brings me happiness. Sunset nature.
Speaker 1:
Just, just to remind people Baguette is not just the bread, although I'm sure you're very fond of baguettes.
Clem:
Baguette is my puppy!!!
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for giving me so much of your time today. It was an absolute pleasure not just to talk to you, but also just to, to discover more about what you do and what you stand for in all of your projects. So we've been wanting to find you, where can they find you on Instagram?
Clem:
Yes. On Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. I am at @B O N J O U R CLEM or the All Womxn project woman with an X email. So if you want to chat more, just email me. I always answer. And yeah, that's it.
Anne:
Thank you again. I hope you have a fantastic day ahead. Well, thanks again. Have a wonderful day. I'm sure we'll speak very, very soon. Thanks.