In this one of a kind episode, host of the Out of the Clouds podcast, Anne Muhlethaler, is interviewed by her friend, podcast host and journalist Etain Lavelle.
In this one-of-a-kind episode, host of the Out of the Clouds podcast, Anne V Mühlethaler, is the ‘guest,’ this time being interviewed by her friend, podcast host and journalist Etain Lavelle.
Anne shares in her introduction that Etain is like extended family to her. They became friends in their twenties and shared a flat on London’s Gloucester Road for a few years. Etain was the best person to interview Anne for this special episode.
In this conversation, Etain dives into Anne’s life journey, asking about her childhood memories and her unconventional education. Anne explains how she found herself settling into a retail career at Christian Louboutin, which was then a small label, after abandoning her pursuit at a music career. She also recounts the outset of what ended up as a seventeen-year stint at the now global shoe brand.
Later, Anne talks about the vision behind her coaching, consulting and storytelling practice and the genesis of her podcast Out of the Clouds, before talking about why being consistent in communication is just as essential as choosing the right platforms for a brand.
The two discuss successes and lessons learned from difficulties at home during Anne’s teenage years. They reflect how her past put her on the path that she is on, though, leading her to become a mindfulness meditation teacher. It’s an emotional topic for Anne, who fights back tears as she reveals the intimate connection between the two.
To conclude, Etain and Anne discuss language, their favourite books, how their travels have changed them, and the importance of trusting the process.
A unique interview that offers a glimpse into Anne’s backstory. Happy listening!
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Selected links from episode
Explore Anne's portfolio career at https://annevmuhlethaler.com/
Join Anne for her upcoming event, Your Next Chapter, a goal setting workshop.
You can connect with Anne on Instagram @Annvi, Threads and LinkedIn
Find out about Anne's coaching offers at https://avm.consulting/coaching
You can meditate with Anne via Insight Timer, with recorded practices, live sessions or discover her course, Loving Kindness 101
Subscribe to Anne's newsletter, the Metta View, a weekly source of essential insights on coaching, brand development and storytelling with a hint of mindfulness.
Discover Anne's mindfulness-centered sister podcast Out of the Clouds Waking Heart
Join the Out of the Clouds MeetUp community
Find out more about Anne's strategic consultancy, AVM Consulting, bridging coaching, consulting and storytelling.
Anne's favorite books:
The Forty Rules of Love by Elif Shafak
L'Usage du Monde by Nicholas Bouvier
The Neapolitan novels by Elena Ferrante
Out of the Clouds - Nanie - Etain
Anne V Muhlethaler: Hi, hello, bonjour and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. And I'm your host, Anne V. Mühlethaler. Today is a very special episode for two reasons. First, it is the anniversary of the launch of Out of the Clouds. which came out June 1st, 2020. I must tell you that Out of the Clouds was not a pandemic baby.
I was always meant to be. launch this interview show that year, but of course it happened at this momentous time. When I look back at this adventure, I must say that I never meant to call this podcast Out of the Clouds. That was the name of a, of a private writing folder on my computer. And it was chosen on a whim, inspired as I was by a song by a singer I like called Emily King.
I never quite understood the lyrics of the song, but I just liked the, the hazy glow that came with the title Out of the Clouds. I originally meant to call this podcast The Red Thread or Le Fil Rouge, but in the end, this was taken and I figured that you'd understand that indeed I am the fil rouge, the red thread, that even though Most of my guests don't have much connection one with the other.
That you'd enjoy my curation, my selection of these conversations because I am moved to bring them to you, because there's something special, because there's something to be discovered from the person that I'm bringing you to discover or to get to know better. So, in the last four years, one of the things that became a real surprise for me is how much I have gained from these conversations at the beginning, because I host and I produce and edit the show.
First, I, I realized that I study my guests. I do the research before interviewing them. And then I listened to the raw audio several times to bring the edit. to what I'm hoping will be near perfection. And yes, I know that they're long form conversations. So, I only edit, let's say the minimum, the goal being to make my guests shine, to bring the best of our conversation to the air.
And so for me, they've become like many masterclasses and each conversation has transformed me. As a human being. So the second reason why it's a big special day is that I'm the one being interviewed by my wonderful friend, Etan. I should say she's more than a friend, she's like extended family. We lived together for several years in London, in Gloucester Road.
Oh, the good times that we had in our, in our fifth floor walk-up, or was it fourth floor? Etan is a very accomplished journalist who also heads her own podcast. I'll put the details in the show notes. We've meant to record this interview for several months because I was answering the request from several friends dating back actually all the way to 2020, who were saying, we want to hear about you.
And I was like, how? Anyway, so this is a very different episode. I hope that you'll enjoy the format that it takes and that you will enjoy finding out more about the many facets of my life that you may not have heard about before. So anyway, I'm going to stop talking and without further ado, I give you my wide ranging interview.
With Etain Lavelle. Happy listening. Shall we just jump in?
Etain Lavelle: Let's get cracking. Absolutely. I am in your hands. Okay. I wanted you to start by telling me your earliest memory.
Anne V Muhlethaler: So, when people talk about their earliest memories, oftentimes I scan back And I can't quite pinpoint anything. And then suddenly, boom!
I realize I have a very powerful first memory. So, I must have been about two, between two and two and a half years old. It was a summer evening, and my parents had taken me and my baby brother, who was literally in diapers at the time, to dinner at a friend's house, who had a beautiful house just above Lake Geneva, with a very steep garden, and they had their own pier on the lake.
And so my memory is, is this, I, I am on the pier, and there are two boats, at least two, and one of them is an orange and black inflatable dinghy. It looks like it's for kids. It's probably not for kids, although they had kids. And my memory is of asking myself, can I do it? Can I jump? Can I make it into the dinghy?
And going one, two, three, and then nothing. And so that's my memory. Of course, what happened after is that one of my father's friends who was there at the dinner, who was a doctor, a colleague of his, um, she noticed I was missing and she legged it down this steep windy garden and sort of fished me out of the lake.
And Ah, so you did not end up in the dinghy. I did not end up in the dinghy. I ended up underwater. And the weird thing is, I remember what it looked like, as if it was a photograph, when I had half my eyes above water and half below, and I was like, oops. Strangely enough, it didn't. make me scared of water after that.
And I'm not sure why, but the experience wasn't encoded in my mind as much of a disaster, which is why most of the time I walk around completely unaware that my first memory was that of almost drowning.
Etain Lavelle: And is that the story of your childhood that you tell people when you, when you have your sort of fondest memories?
Is it just the one that marked you the most?
Anne V Muhlethaler: I wouldn't say it's my fondest memory, but it is my first, my earliest memory. I, I don't know how What is your earliest memory? Because I don't have specific, clear memories that I can time. I couldn't tell you what else is a memory when I'm three or four or five.
They would be memories of being in my own house or being in the garden or, or being with parents, but not many that are as clear as that. as an event, let's
Etain Lavelle: say. Yeah. It's the fear that probably makes it stand out the most.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Um, the weird thing is it's, I don't think, I don't remember fear. I remember this, this question, can I make it? And just thinking, yeah, and just giving it a go. And I think that says a lot about how I move in life.
Etain Lavelle: So what did you want to be when you were, when you were young? What, what did you, where did you envisage your life going?
Anne V Muhlethaler: I mean, for a little while I wanted to be a ballerina, but that's because my first Barbie was a ballerina Barbie and my mother was completely against the idea of me doing classical ballet. So that, that sort of disappeared very quickly. I don't remember much about having a desire to be anything specific when I was a child.
I think in my early teens, I felt. Um, really called towards professions that I heard praised by my parents. And so journalism and lawyer, these were things that I could sort of envisage a lot to do with the written word or the spoken word and the art of language and argumenting and etc. There's a lot of that in my household.
So
Etain Lavelle: yeah,
Anne V Muhlethaler: a lot of respect. So I started playing piano when I was seven. And the first couple of years I played with a teacher that I did not particularly enjoy. And then we switched to someone else and She was an absolutely wonderful, wonderful teacher. It is the kind of personality that would literally transmit her passion for music and for classical piano.
And so I grew up with her and my household was 95 percent classical. We did not have much of a choice in terms of what music would play because my father was the keeper of those gates. And when we were not listening to classical music, it was the radio and news and that kind of stuff, which You know, around the age of 12, I started to rebel, because why would I always listen to what my father wants to listen to?
And my brother, Michel, is really a mythical figure almost, because he gave me my first albums of Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson, and then Pink Floyd and other really sort of massive hits like that. And then that's, that's kind of when things started going south for my classical career. Because I started singing in my bedroom, which, you know, to the dismay of my parents, who were just not happy about my leanings towards Madonna in particular.
And the more things went, the more I sang and it became a thing I wanted to do. So I didn't want to be a famous singer. I don't remember ever having sort of a specific vision of any kind of clear outward success, but there was a thing about the way that I was singing that did not please me at the time.
So I don't know if that's going to make sense to you, but when you study classical, especially with the teacher I had, we, we weren't going deep into music theory and stuff like that. So it didn't offer me a lot of opportunity to discover how to play piano outside of the confines of the, the pieces of music that I was learning and, and playing.
And so I felt like I was very linear as a singer and that just did not meet my aspirations because I started to discover Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Lauryn Hill and Aretha Franklin and I was like, shit, I want to sing like them. And so my absolute goal, but really it was like a mission was to like break free from the classical conditioning.
and to just develop my voice so that it could be the instrument that I wanted to use in the way I wanted to use it. And, but the way that I tried to attain that was by repetition, by practicing, which is what I learned in doing piano. So I sang and sang and sang and sang and sang and sang. And I learned entire albums by heart.
And you have to bear in mind that I lived in a really small village and. County Geneva in Switzerland. And so I wonder how many of the 350 inhabitants of the village heard me sing that album of Ella Fitzgerald or Lauryn Hill's adaptation of His Eyes on the Sparrow. I mean, I must have driven my parents to a certain state.
So, but, so I was that, that's the one thing I wanted to do or to be. That's the only thing that I wanted to do or be, to be honest.
Etain Lavelle: And do you think today would you say that you are most passionate about music above all things still or have other interests come to the fore?
Anne V Muhlethaler: So the thing that's interesting about what I've described is that's what I wanted to become.
It's, I wanted to become a singer who could sing in the way that I aspired to. And I actually reached that at some point in my twenties.
I still am very passionate about music. I don't have a lot of available time to lean into music and singing. I still use my voice most days. I still practice scales and warm up my vocal chords. So I'm taking care of my instrument, let's say, but I'm not using it as often as I as I did, simply because I Effectively, when you want to do music with other people, and you want to do it with semi pro or professionals, these people, they're going to want to work with people who want to get paid.
And I didn't want to get paid. I did not. I wanted this to stay a semi-professional hobby. And essentially our interests were diverging and it became completely natural that I would just stop pursuing this because, because the level of the musicians that I'm seeking, the They're busy doing something else with other people who want to be on stage every night, or in a studio, more or less.
So, meanwhile, I did discover plenty of other passions. I'm a rather passionate personality, so that's, that's not too complicated.
Etain Lavelle: You, you are a very accomplished singer, but, but this is not the thing that you are best known for.
Anne V Muhlethaler: No, but you know, I became very aware when I was starting another career that, and I don't know if this is something that I built as an idea in my mind that, and that wasn't true. I think that's the case. I was very worried. that people wouldn't take me seriously if they knew how much I loved this other thing I was doing on the side.
And so I just stopped telling people very early on in my career. For context, for our listeners, I did not finish university because I was working in a boutique to pay my rent. I left my parents household from many reasons and my dad said if you're not under my roof you're on your own. And I said fine which was not fine at all really because I had no idea what I was doing but so I had a part time job and university and music and the university just was that little thing in the background that I absolutely could not care less about.
Etain Lavelle: Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler: But so this was actually a rather seminal, uh, path for me because I worked for two women entrepreneur who had built a small business with two boutiques in Geneva and one in Zurich that would serve the English speaking community by offering them films. and books in English. And so I was speaking English and I watched about 3, 000 films in the space of, I don't know, two or three years.
I, to this day, I have a very wide-ranging film culture and they taught me how to run a shop. I had a prior small business experience, but they really taught me how to look after customers. They taught me everything to do with managing the space and looking after the experience.
ethos. Because Geneva is so international, they would sometimes get clients who come from the other end of the world looking for a specific film because it was attached to a memory. And so they would never say no. They would say, I don't know where to find it, but we'll look. And this was in the early days of using the internet to to do research using Amazon before anyone used Amazon.
And so I learned all of those skills in retail and customer service from them. So when I arrived in London, wanting to pursue a music career, I found myself an opportunity as a Saturday girl in a boutique at the back end of Knightsbridge. Which you came to know very well.
Etain Lavelle: Yes,
Anne V Muhlethaler: indeed.
And I started working for a then very little known, if, let's be honest, completely unknown at the time, shoe designer called Christian Louboutin, who made shoes with, at the time, the soles were not all the same color red. Some of them were a little bit more maroon, I want to point out. But yeah, so. Most people know me still for my 17 years working for Christian Louboutin, starting on the shop floor as a Saturday girl.
Etain Lavelle: So you rejected the conventional path of education that your parents expected you to go down, but I would say, and I think many people would say, you're probably the most all rounded educated person and the best read person. One of the best I've ever met. You are multilingual at the same time. It doesn't seem to have hampered you in any way, not having had a conventional education.
What would you say are your top qualities? You don't have a university degree. You have so much more to offer the world. What are your top qualities?
Anne V Muhlethaler: I don't know, but let me go back to one thing about education. The thing that was interesting is, at the time that I, you and I barely knew each other, I was very close friends to your sister, who I'd enrolled as a backing vocalist in the band that I was in. On the school bus. And when it came on the school bus because I would not stop singing, which was the bane of my brother's existence.
He was just so ashamed of me. I still sing in the street, just to be clear. I mean, I tried to do it when there's not too many people around. I had a very, very wonderful experience in high school in Toulon les Bains because when I was in school in Geneva, The curriculum was, though it was also a literary curriculum, it was heavily based on Latin and German with a little bit of English.
I barely spoke any English at the time, but the literature, the French and the philosophy departments were excellent. I mean, the Swiss are not known for these topics. And after getting expelled from high school, which is a story for, you can put a pin in it. You can explore that another time. I will. I ended up in in Thonon les Bains and in Thonon, I had two seminal teachers, one French teacher who couldn't stand me and who said, if you don't get great at essays, I'm getting you kicked out.
So, you know, I didn't have much of a choice. I had to immediately perform or be out. And I did, because actually, I've been devouring books since I was a kid. For the first time, someone showed me a structure that I could follow and create logical arguments, which goes back to the thing that I was talking about earlier, having sort of caressed the idea of journalism or, or law.
And for the first time, In, in these sort of years as a, as a teenager trying to learn how to express ideas on paper, no one had shown me a way how until that day. And so that really marked me quite a bit. And then following that, we have a fantastic teacher, a philosophy teacher called, I think he was called Monsieur Bottaro.
And the thing that's very specific in France is that when you do philosophy. for the equivalent of your A levels for baccalaureate. You only do it the last year. French, you do the year before. And then you do nine hours a week, nine hours a week of philosophy for a year. That's very French.
Etain Lavelle: Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler: And, and I was very passionate about what I discovered.
And I was very surprised as well to the philosophers that I'd felt connected to, which I would have originally imagined would have been, um, difficult. Somehow I felt very comfortable in the realm of ideas and exploring ideas, and I just when I looked at the curriculum of Geneva University, it didn't appeal to me.
When I attended Geneva University, it didn't appeal to me and I had looked at other options in other places, in other countries and Of course, that was me just using the, the internet connection at work, at like my little job to see what else was out there. And my parents were like, you know, we're not going to pay for that.
And had I had it my way, I probably would have studied philosophy, um, most likely in Paris or I would have gone to, to the US. So of course, instead I just decided to work because what is the point of doing studies that I don't care about anyway? Did you know you wanted to be a journalist when you studied English?
Etain Lavelle: Yes, I always knew I wanted to write. I think I just always read so much. I probably was only very good at a handful of things, so it was easy. I think when you're very gifted, as I would say you are, it's trickier. It's difficult to actually choose. But let's just go back to being expelled. What did you do that caused you to be expelled?
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah, it's funny because yesterday I was at my local Toastmasters club and I ended up doing a table topic on that. My, my mother was very sick for most of my. teenage years and actually most of my life. But she became unwell when I was around the age of 11, 11, 12 years old. And it culminated around the time I was 16, 17.
And, um, she was depressive and anorexic and the side gig to these two sort of already heavy sort of, uh, mental health challenges, she became an alcoholic. So she was in a very, very poor physical Uh, condition for a long time in her life. At times as well, she was just not in the best frame of mind. She and I had some really tough times, uh, around then.
And I didn't shoplift, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke until later. I didn't do drugs, but I stopped going to school. And I would, I would just leave the house as if I was taking the bus to school and then I would just hide. Funny enough, the only place I could hide was in the churchyard of the small little Protestant church in Gilles.
And I would wait to see my parents cars leave and I would sneak back into the house. Occasionally, I would take a later bus and sort of wander around town, and I think that within three months, finally someone noticed that there was a problem, and not long after I was expelled.
Etain Lavelle: Do you think there are some qualities in hindsight, probably many qualities, that you learned because you had to during those really tough years of growing up? Mmm.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Of course, a lot of my story, a lot of my life is defined by not just what I lived, but how I, how I talk about how I frame and how I feel about what I've lived. And
I think we can get used to most situations in life. I think that's a thing to remember where the human beings were very resilient. And while there were some really difficult and traumatic moments that, that my family lived through, my dad, my brother and I, we all had different, really hard times. We were not all there at the same time.
to witness certain accidents and behaviors and, and other traumas. I think that what I learned from that time, from that early age is the importance or the, the gift that is to be able to crystallize my experience through music. So years later, as, as many people may know, listening to us now, I started to study yoga and to study mindfulness and study breath work.
And so one of the things I discovered Because it's part of the what is now commonly known is that deep breathing and the kind of breathing that you access when you sing, that means breathing from the depth of the belly, it activates the vagus nerve. It's one of the many ways in which we can bring ourselves out of fight flight freeze and into what is called the rest and digest state.
And so every time. that there was any kind of crisis, either because there was a problem in the family with my mom, with a boy at school, many of those incidents. Every time that I then took that and expressed myself through singing, I released the energy and I think that this is probably one of the greatest gifts and one of the greatest lessons to me.
that I learned over the course of those years. I also did think at the time that I was a bad breather. I remember very clearly thinking to myself, I don't know, I just maybe I felt like other people did it better. But as you may know yourself, when you're in a state of stress, we tend to breathe a very shallow breath only from the upper part of the chest.
And that does not sustain us. It can actually be a secondary reinforcer of the stress itself by not being able to access a deeper in breath. And I think that as many people, I ended up smoking cigarettes for a long time in my life because that would be the only time in my day that would take a deep breath in and a deep breath out.
When you think about it, thankfully, I am 100 percent nicotine free for many years now, but I see a correlation in those two things. Now, about my qualities, it's always such a hard question. I think that there are qualities that we. are born with that are, let's say, our character. And so, for example, I think I'm a very generous person.
Sometimes it's not a quality because sometimes I should, you know, keep my money for myself. I tend to be the person who always wants to buy everyone lunch and buy everyone dinner and give gifts and Um, that's just, that's just how I feel. That's just what I like to do. So I can't really be praised for that.
I'm also very passionate and enthusiastic. I think passion and enthusiasm are just two sides of the same coin for me. And I'm also very courageous. I think that I, I follow my heart, even if it's, you know, jumping into the unknown kind of like I did when I saw that little thingy, I just jump in the lake instead.
Yeah, very, but I think I developed some other qualities through my upbringing because of my environment. So I became a lot more patient than I think most people are, particularly with people who are. perhaps neurodivergent. I became very self aware, which is a quality and a problem because I am going to be the kind of person who's going to really watch and think perhaps too hard and too long before expressing myself because I am monitoring my environment.
I'm self aware because I understand. That my actions and my words can have powerful reflection in, let's say, consequences in the life of someone else, multiple lives around me. And so, unfortunately for me, learning to, step on eggshells around my mother has not made me the most direct communicator you could find in life.
I've been working many years to, to get better at that. And some people would call it conflict avoidant and I would say, no, no, that's not the same. Just think of me as like a SWAT team. Okay. I am just, I'm just, I'm just like a specialized observer and I will only sort of swoop in once I understand the lay of the land.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Etain Lavelle: What would you say was the most important lesson that you've
Anne V Muhlethaler: learned? So the biggest lesson I learned from someone else is, is from watching my parents, watching my father wanting my mother better, to be better. I realized that despite his wonderfully positive intentions, you should not want for people to be anything but who they are in that moment.
Even if you think that they could or should be better or happier or healthier, it did not serve either of them for him to hope that she could end up being the best version of herself.
And I think we often forget that. And women in particular, we, I think we are so often the type who will say, but I see the potential. So my dad was essentially very feminine in his own way. He saw the potential in my mother. He was so besotted with her until the end of his life. And yet he always wanted her to somehow be someone else than who she was.
And so I actually did tell him that was one of the biggest lessons I'd ever learned and he said, hmm, very wise. So, you know, it was nice to be able to have that conversation with him. But on a personal level, outside of that, the biggest thing I've learned, which is, I don't know if it's the same as a lesson, is that we are not our thoughts.
I'm so lucky and grateful. Perhaps it's because I didn't study and I dropped out of university that I ended up later on reconnecting with with the kind of studies I probably always wanted to, to do but didn't know where to find. And by, by studying Buddhism and, and Buddhist psychology system and, and also gaining wisdom from amazing Western teachers who are doctors and psychiatrists and specialists in neuroscience who are connected to these Eastern psychology systems.
I've understood things that I, that could have transformed my life if I'd known that earlier. We are not our thoughts. Our thoughts are just something that our brains produce. Some of them are. Also, as my teacher Jack Cornfield likes to say, some of them are fake news. I'm learning to, it's true, you know that.
And so learning to watch your thoughts and learning to work with them, noticing which thoughts are helpful, useful, fake. I mean, that's a whole conversation in itself.
Etain Lavelle: Yeah. Let's talk a bit now about your successes in life. Tell me about your biggest success.
Oh
Anne V Muhlethaler: dear. I don't know why it is so hard to remember. anything that feels like a success. So actually just looking around my desk after you've asked a question, two of my biggest successes is graduating or certifying as a yoga teacher and as a mindfulness meditation teacher. For me, for example, having a certification as a yoga teacher in Anusara Yoga in the Hatha Vinyasa practice is actually an incredible success.
Thank you for making me think of that, especially because I have been diagnosed about 10 years ago with Rheumatoid Arthritis, and my body is not
Whose body is, but my body is not in a perfect condition every day. And you know, the first time that I was able to go into headstand, for example, after sustaining some really important injuries on my shoulders and bursitis and tendonitis and having widespread pain in my body, it was just, Oh my God, that was a huge success.
So being able to. work with an autoimmune disease and be able to still make this sort of connection to myself, connection to my body. It was a really, it's, it's a tremendous success for me to be certified as a teacher and to continue to gain certifications even though I'm not. Yet offering yoga classes.
Yeah, in Geneva, I did a training 10 days ago with with my teacher, Annie Carpenter. And to be clear, though, I managed the rheumatoid arthritis really well. For some reason, of course, out of all days in a whole year, it had to be that day. That I have a flare up and I show up on the second day with like super sharp pain in my left knee.
The day before I had a bit of pain in my, in my lower back and I didn't tell anyone anything. I just told one of the, the assistant teachers, like I had to take it easy and I was really embarrassed. I was embarrassed because I'm overweight because I'm one of the older teachers in the room and because I have pain in my body.
But at the end of the day. First of all, the rheumatoid arthritis and the, the pain I experience tends to go away if I allow myself to continue moving. So the pain in, in the end dissipated. And I was so, so grateful to be able to attend this training because it's one of the best teachers in the world and one of my favorite teachers ever.
Annie Carpenter. And she was in my city. Yes. So I think even though I, if you'd asked me this yesterday, I probably would've thought of something else as a great success. Let's claim. That's one of my greatest even successes.
Etain Lavelle: Determination. What? Determination is one of her great qualities. Endurance. Ah.
Sticking
Anne V Muhlethaler: at it. Yeah, I guess
Etain Lavelle: so.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good point. Well, to be fair, I'm also very resourceful, so I should say that the way that I manage the relationship with this autoimmune disease, it's probably not what everybody else would be doing. And, and because I'm determined, I, okay, I see this, I am determined and as such, I have become very resourceful in order to find ways to do the things that I really want to do.
Yeah. That makes sense. Thank you. Well, that brings
Etain Lavelle: me to exactly what I think all of us would like to know is, which is what is your day job? And then what are your moonlighting jobs? And you have a portfolio career that just covers so many different horizons. I'd love to know exactly, tell us exactly what you do when.
That's fun.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yay. Okay, so I am currently the principal at a VM Consulting, which is a company I founded in 2020. Okay. It was always meant to be happening that year. I dunno if that was the smartest thing. Hopefully. it will show itself to be the smartest thing in a few years. And, uh, prior to that, I was, I was consulting as a, as a freelancer, um, in business development and communication after my 17 years career at Christian Louboutin.
And so in the role I have today, I am a consultant, uh, in business development. I am a coach. I've become a certified coach a couple of years ago. And I am a specialist in storytelling and I use those words mindfully.
Etain Lavelle: I just wanted to interject. I think you've touched upon those qualities that your career at Christian Louboutin over 17 years allowed you to develop.
Can you tell us a little bit about the roles that you had? You started off, as you told us, you started off on a Saturday. working a few hours on the shop floor and you went on to have some of the most important management roles in the company as it grew to become the most internationally recognized and highly regarded shoe brand in the world.
Christian Louboutin today is the most famous brand I would say. Largely to a lot of is. Thanks in a large part to a lot of your work.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Well, until
Etain Lavelle: a
Anne V Muhlethaler: certain time. Yes. So my career was not planned, of course. I think it worked out actually because, because I always thought I could do better if I was in music.
So I wasn't too invested in the first few years. I had something else that just kept me. It's almost that, that lover that you just don't take seriously because you have something better. Yeah. So I. I quickly became the manager of the boutique at the time. The Nice Bridge store, the only outpost of the company in the UK, was a franchise.
And this did not work too well for too long with the franchisees, sadly. I started doing PR, let's say PR assisting, by default because the guy who was supposed to be doing that was Just not in the office most of the time and I ended up being on the receiving end of requests, phone calls, couriers, wanting to pick up things for Vogue and Harper's and I had nothing and they were, they were interrupting my work of trying to sell shoes to clients and in a one room boutique when you have a large all dressed in leather with a helmet just waiting for a bag.
It's kind of a downer when you're trying to sell, I don't know, silk pumps. So I started coming in early. I mean, it's true, it happens so many times. And then, if I didn't have anything, then the phone would ring, and then someone would start screaming at the other end, saying, But Andreas promised that I would be able to get the shoes for the cover of So I started doing the, let's say, the back office role of PR by default, so I could be left alone to do the other thing.
And I started to get organized because, remember, I was taught to be organized in my previous job. So I would lay out all of the requests and sort of map out what shoes would go where. Of course, at the beginning, because I had absolutely no training in fashion, I genuinely could not understand the briefs that were, being sent to me.
So that was a learning curve. And then eventually one day I talked to Christian on the phone. He never used to come to London at the time, so I didn't meet him until a year and a half after I started working for the company. And he only had four boutiques at the time, so it's kind of late. But because he didn't own that store, I think that there was more distance.
And so we got on well on the phone and then we met a year and a half later and Yeah, I remember because his, his partner at the time was there with him, Louis. And so he sort of winked at us and just said, ha, you have chemistry. And it was really cute. And in the end, they, he decided that he wanted to ask me to do the PR for the UK.
And we talked about it with his business partner. And Bruno asked me to take on the wholesale as well. Because he said, you know, the wholesale has not been developed in the franchise agreement. If we can get it out of the franchise agreement, then we'll give you a percentage of sales and we'd like you to develop the market.
And, And I think he regretted the percentage that he gave me. . Okay. 'cause I was like, oh God, yay. Let me give this a try because I figured, you know, if I can sell something to a client on the shop floor, how hard is it gonna be to be selling it to a department store buyer? And yeah, that was the beginning of my, of my career, let's say in business development actually.
And I really, really enjoyed that, actually. I really, really did. And so one thing led to another, the franchise closed, I became in charge of wholesale and PR at a sort of more manager level, reopened the boutique, and later on, As the company started to staff up in Paris, I was offered the position of general manager in the UK.
And so I headed all of the operations and the opening of other boutiques and concessions, which happened in relatively quick succession. And this was a time where I would say the whole of the luxury world was in a major ascent. This is around the time that Sex and the City was sort of peaking in their seventh or eighth season.
Sarah Jessica Parker had walked past the boutique in Madison Avenue in one of the episodes and had sort of swooned over, uh, a wonderful, what was that shoe called? Ah, that's going to annoy me. Anyway, a pink chiffon shoe that was, that was just so wonderful. And so essentially from season to season, um, everyone was doubling their orders.
It was, it was kind of incredible. And so when the financial crisis hit, you'd expect that it would have been a much bigger crisis for us than what it was, but we'd open our own factory in Italy and we could barely staff it with. the required hands, because you need to have really skilled artisans to do this work.
And a lot of other brands ended up letting go of a part of their staff. And suddenly, we ended up being in full capacity and being able to meet the demand. So I think that in a relatively crazy twist of fate, Christian's company ascent, A, could not have happened if he hadn't decided to open his own factory.
And because he was able to look after things in a very specific way. And also, the crisis offered the The, the kind of workers that he really needed to be building, um, his, his company. And I was just there trying to hype PR. So my favorite part of this job, I can barely remember because all I remember of this time is just how underwater I was pretty much all of the time.
Etain Lavelle: Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I would say probably the best thing that happened in my career is the amazing friends I made. Because the one thing that I think is generally very misunderstood or not portrayed correctly in fashion and in TV or film, is just how hard everyone works. Just how hard everyone works. Like in all kinds of companies, whether we're talking on the design team in the studio, you're talking about the logistics team.
I mean, literally everyone really gave so much themselves. And maybe because we were all in that sort of same state of fast paced, hard work, business development, entrepreneur. Sorry, because I didn't grow up in the US or within English speaking environment, the word entrepreneurial spirit does not really exist.
I didn't grow up with it. But effectively, when I think about most of the people I've worked with in the fashion industry in London Everyone had that spirit. Everyone was ready to help everyone else out to help build something that was meaningful. And so I think that's definitely what marked me the most.
And then as things went on, the company was Getting to its 20th anniversary. So because the Paris team in PR was not very good at, um, communicating in English, which is a very French thing, a French problem to have, although to be honest, some Italians could claim the same issue, the job of, The Global Head of Communications was offered to me in 2011, at the same time as being the General Manager in the UK.
And so I held the two jobs for about two years, which was too much, as one can imagine.
As much fun as it is to develop retail and wholesale, I, I think I had opened enough boutiques, I wanted to do something else. And I really liked the opportunity to travel and to continue to develop relationships with teams that were burgeoning in various countries around the world, whether we're talking about, um, whether you're talking about Dubai and, uh, the agencies that we had in Brazil and Australia, et cetera.
And so I really enjoyed for the following few years trying to create not just a strategy, something cohesive, which was really, really complicated in, in our company, but also to try and create a sense of a cohesive team with all of these people who are so far apart and with all of the cultural differences and the context of their market, as well as the context of the retail landscape on the ground, including who is the owner?
Is this a franchise? What are they like? Because companies are reflective of, of the people. Christian Louboutin London was not the same as Christian Louboutin New York. When I was running London, after I left, it became a different company in some way. Because we each, each individual gives a lot of culture.
So I really relished the opportunity to work with senior executives and building some, some younger teams from the ground up. It was also the hardest thing that I've ever had to do because I had to manage very senior staff in some places that were really difficult to work with. When I decided I wanted to split the roles that I had, I I had to have an inner conversation with myself, and that's actually quite important.
I can't believe I almost forgot. So, I felt ready to leave London because I didn't have a significant other in London at the time. I had tried to find an apartment to buy and I couldn't find a place I liked. And I was like, well, I'm still a free agent, why not go somewhere else? And since the age of 14, I had always wanted to live in New York.
You know, when you get to New York as a teenager. And you see the bright lights of the Big Apple anyways. And also knowing who would be my replacement as a general manager, I also knew it would be better for her if I was out of the country because it would establish her authority so much more if I was not.
still in the same office. And very importantly, Paris was not an option because I've never wanted to live in Paris. And so I actually went directly to Christian and because he was building a beauty brand and the, um, the business partner that we'd selected for this beauty brand were based in New York city.
Our head office for beauty was in New York. It seems like the right opportunity for me to be making an offer to say, Hey, why don't I just take that job and I take it there. And there were a couple of things that made sense as well, because I'd spearheaded a wonderful team under me to develop our digital and social media.
I mean, for years, our Instagram was like a beacon. in the industry and I'm so proud of it because it was very much a grassroots effort that came from a couple of unbelievably great girls and actually just everyone in the team and everyone in the UK office, to be honest, participated at some point or other, including me posting directly to the millions of followers whilst I was on holiday in Greece, for example.
And so, It was difficult at the time to imagine how we could build the digital and social media team. London was a decent place for talent in that area, but we're talking in the early 2000s, the talent was not at the same level than it was in New York. And so I think that these two considerations together helped Christian make the decision.
To let me establish myself there basically and, and build an office. And so I was in New York for, for three years from 2013 to 2016.
Etain Lavelle: Your career today is, is comprised of that storytelling, the rich history you have of coming from, you know, running PR for Christian Louboutin for all those years. And the consulting in a way you were an entrepreneur and part of the early strategy in developing that business, but you also do life coaching.
So talk me through how you weave those three quite different facets into the role that you have today.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Of course. So first, I think that I want to clarify that I'm using the word consultant because it's widely used in the industry that I grew up in, the fashion industry. I don't particularly love that word, so what I do is nothing like what, you know, the big consulting firms do, just to be clear.
What I do is that I offer tailored services for business development and strategy for businesses in, particularly in the design, fashion and luxury space. It's my sweet spot to help businesses Find solutions to their problem, basically. I think that's what I, that's what I did since the beginning of my career at the Bhutan.
That's why I navigated through different departments though essentially, when I was the general manager in the early days, I was also the head of HR because we didn't have an HR in Paris. I was also the head of logistics. So I think as a solution finder, I try to apply my skills to helping answer the big questions that my clients bring to me and.
I realized after the first four or five years of, of being a business advisor, that oftentimes my clients would not listen to the advice that they pay for the advice that I give them and they know it's the right thing to do and yet they don't do it. And so I realized after being coached myself by various coaches for a number of years.
That there was a very interesting aspect to the coaching model. So for people who don't know, a life coach in particular, so coaches who are, for example, accredited or affiliated to the ICF, the International Coaching Federation, they lean in particular on coaching. The use of powerful open questions to help the client find their own answers.
And if I, if I ask you whether you're more likely to listen to someone's advice or to to act upon an answer that you find in yourself, what do you think it is? Most often a coach is just there to ask the next best question. To lead the client to find the answer that suits them and as much as I would like to tell myself that I'm so talented and that I can give you the best communication strategy on everything.
The truth is, even if I try to be as innovative as I can be, I'm also the product of my experience, my industry, and I will eventually have some cookie cutter ideas, even though they'll be less predictable than someone else, perhaps in the industry. So by leaning on coaching questions and using that as a building block, a tool for my clients, I help them bring out of themselves their next best idea.
And then what I can do very well, because I'm very resourceful, is I can help them Put them out into the world. Make them a reality.
Etain Lavelle: Look, one of the things that you, you've, you've touched upon, but that is, is very clear from the career path you've taken is having worked with a small company and seen it grow to the extent that it did whilst you were there.
You had the nimbleness and the ability to act and to have big roles, actually. Roles that you probably wouldn't have put yourself forward for, but that you were thrown into and you thrived. But. I think the other, the other aspect of this is what is the common thread today that runs through and also the other parts of your work that you haven't mentioned, which are, you know, you are a certified yoga teacher, that you do Toastmasters, there's, there's all sorts of other things, which are sort of on the periphery.
They're not part of the day job, but I just wanted to not forget that.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Sure. So there's a story I want to tell you and it's funny because I'd forgotten about it and I wanted to put some thoughts down. about another topic before we spoke and I opened a folder and I just found this story. So let me use this as an illustration.
So when I was still at Christian Louboutin at the time in Paris, Christian was helping a friend of his build his own business and we had an appointment on a Friday morning in December and I was there, I was meant to help him figure out bits for his communication strategy. It was the day after the Christmas party.
We didn't go to bed early. It was a breakfast appointment at 9am. I wasn't my freshest. And I remember sitting down across from Henri and thinking to myself, not much is going to be happening today in this conversation because you know, how could it? And I was completely wrong. Because instead of perhaps putting on my I'm the global head of comms, hat on, and trying to map something out for him, I asked him questions.
And in asking him questions, I heard him drop the tagline and mission of the brand that no one had been able to sort of identify it until then. And I think that this, this really stuck with me. I didn't bring my experience. I wasn't bringing my role to the forefront. I just sat there. I just, I was present, sure.
I was with Henri, and I just asked him the best question I could think of, and he found the answers. And I think it's something that I have not thought of for so many years, so thank God I wrote it down in this random file.
Because this connects back to storytelling, to business development, and to coaching. Yeah. What I like to do and what I'm trying to do in this role and what I'm hoping to build and help build into a bigger company and bring other people to use my methodology as well is that stories are how we learn from each other without explanation.
And I'm really good at helping extract. the right answers and the right stories from my clients. And then I can help them sort of, I'm using my hands, it's almost like, you know, playing with building blocks, putting them this way or that way, up until you find a way that it helps reach the clients that they want to reach, the people that they care about.
And so that is my day job. And that's how storytelling is weaved into consulting is weaved into coaching.
Etain Lavelle: Do you ever feel pulled in too many directions?
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yes, I do. But I think that because I'm currently building methodology, I think that I am right now trying to make sense of what I'm building and it will feel so much better once I've got something tangible in my hands. And so over the past nine months, I've also been working with a model called the story of you.
And it's, I started to notice that my coaching clients come to me because they seem to have the same problems as the brand clients that come to me. They have a difficulty talking about who they are and what they do in varied contexts. So for some people, it's preparing for interviews for other people is how to.
come across in the right way on their website, from writing a biography to, to any other kind of, um, output in the world to talk about who they are. And I realized that most of us have difficulties with talking about who we are and what we do. And so it's definitely a through line and I'm trying to find the best possible way that I can help serve people because not everyone can afford to hire a coach or a consultant to, to connect the dots and, and reach their objectives of connection.
I'm very wary of where a lot of people are finding themselves in the current job market with a lot of uncertainty, with a lot of layoffs, a lot of doom and gloom or hype of the AI revolution that's coming upon us. And so I'm very passionate about this strange little triangle of love that I'm building with this consulting, coaching and storytelling, because I believe that's And I really truly believe this from the depth of my soul that we are all the bearers of unbelievably important stories.
And we forget, we forget how connected we are to each other, because there are so many things that sort of build us up against one another, whether it's in the job market or in a country versus another from one religion to another from one office, from one department to another, you know, a lot of us versus them.
Yes. A lot of, a lot of feelings of isolation and not necessarily loneliness, but isolation and, and. and feeling unseen and unheard. And, and so I'm hoping that the, the work I'm doing is, is going to be helping at least a few people bridge that gap and be able to connect their own dots so that they then can express themselves better and make the connections they want to make.
And one of my favorite things to do is actually to hold either Uh, department or company wide workshops to go out and explore and revisit these important topics on a yearly basis. It's a really, really important part of what I do. So whether we're talking about the, the values work, whether we're talking about the mission, the vision, the customer vision, or any sticky topic that, you know, The company doesn't feel like they're breaking through in a particular part of their business development.
It could be email, it could be events. Generally, there's a lot of wisdom within the company and the team. So I like to be the person that just brings everyone to the table and that sort of facilitates. with the goal of bringing that wisdom outwards in a way that makes it also not just accessible, but heard.
And then we take these learnings, we take this wisdom and we apply it into the strategic business plan or the communication strategy. It's really one of my favorite things to do. And it's so strange that we forget how much knowledge there is in the team. And by the way, it generally acts as a really Wonderful sort of a binding moment, because people then are able to be heard, to express themselves.
They also get to hear others in a way that they rarely hear them. So yeah, it's powerful, it's a powerful process.
Etain Lavelle: You mentioned, we've talked about what, what connection means to you, but, but communication in today's world. versus even at the beginning of your career is so unrecognizable with social media, with the proliferation of platforms, with the huge volume of, of news, of, of alerts, of updates that we all have every day.
How situation Even once you have found that mission with your client, once you have brought that team together, once everybody knows what exactly they stand for, how is that disseminated in a world where we are overloaded with communication?
Anne V Muhlethaler: So I think there's a dual answer. The first thing I would say is consistency is very important.
Like, once you have a plan, it's really important that you see it through. I think that most of us find it very difficult to actually do what we say we're supposed to do. And I can see it for small business clients as much as for larger businesses because at some point someone's like, Oh, but I have a better idea or what about this?
And I'm not saying that we should never stray from what's been mapped out and planned out. But at the same time, consistency is really important. If you want to see certain results, you need to stick and be consistent. So most people think that they have told their story too many times. That's generally not true.
Because as you said, we are overwhelmed. This is a very, very noisy world. The likelihood that the customer that you love, that you really want to reach, the likelihood that person has heard or read the thing that you put out is slim to none. You're going to have to repeat that message multiple, multiple times in multiple ways to make sure that it's heard.
And so even for clients have whose values haven't, let's say, changed from the beginning of their business, let's say 10 years ago. or 20 years ago to now, the likelihood that the story that they told 10 years ago that is etched in their minds that it's come through to the rest of their clientele, it's impossible, right?
So I think repetition is absolutely essential. And then I would say the most important thing is Only communicate on the platforms that you are passionate about, the platforms that you or your team use. Being on the platform that you don't care about, that you don't respect, that you don't enjoy, is unlikely to yield any results.
It's just a waste of your time. So I think I'm currently listening to a book that's been in my audible list for a while by a gentleman whose name I don't know how to pronounce. I'll have to look it up one sec. It's called Effortless by Greg Macchio. I'll give you the link in the show notes, but he was talking about the importance of, of sometimes just stopping fighting against the grain.
Some things come to you easily and some things are just, are going to feel like almost impossible, it's so hard they are. Um, I think it's important to also just listen to your own natural instincts or your team's natural instincts. The reason why Louboutin was incredibly successful with our Instagram and Facebook at the beginning is because we had one team member who was absolutely amazing.
The innovator at that time, and there are things that she didn't do well and things that she did very well, but we had one absolutely passionate person who was going to do the research and bring the ideas and who just got the thing rolling in today's world. My advice would be consistency once you have a plan, because you need to have a plan, and, and just be where you're passionate about being.
Just make, make that choice very clearly. And then there's another thing that was percolating at the back of my mind. Think about what you also use. Right. So if you're you, if you have a large team, just also ask everyone what they're on. Like I'm a little bit on Instagram, but not much. I'm on YouTube every day.
I love YouTube. This came to me late, but I love YouTube.
Etain Lavelle: You're such a teenager.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I'm on podcasts. I'm such a teenager. I'm, I'm on threads because in Europe, it doesn't suck yet. I hear in America it's terrible, but right now it's kind of clean. My feed is nice, if a bit boring.
Etain Lavelle: I'm
Anne V Muhlethaler: a little bit on TikTok because sometimes, why not?
But I'm, I'm on newsletters. I love newsletters. I'm on podcasts. I'm on Feedly, but the thing I'm on all the time, All the time. Google. I'm on search. And so one of the things I see some business development experts missing, and this is my point of view, so feel free to throw it away with the bathwater. My point of view is that everyone right now needs to be very, very on top of their search.
Whether you're using Instagram for search, YouTube for search, Google for search, I use Google Map for search. I actually call businesses when I look for a coffee shop or I go to Google search because then I can see where it is in town. I can see the opening hours, I can see the reviews. So consider the tools you have or try to find someone who is very savvy in digital and, and, Lean on, on what they're using.
And then lastly, what do you use to communicate in real life? I think we forget that sometimes some of the ways that are the most special. Are going to be tangible. I'm all for not deforesting too much, but you know, you can send a card or some people are completely against flyers. I'm like, why? If it's really nice, if it's beautifully designed, why?
I've picked up other people's flyers at a nice spa or something. Yeah. If you trust the places that you go to. You'll be interested in any curational selection of services that they show, right? And that's a form of word of mouth that I think is an equivalent of a free Facebook ad. You don't know how many eyeballs you'll get on that, but, so it's important to consider your whole environment, not just the digital environment.
Etain Lavelle: So I guess the one thing we haven't discussed so far, Anvi, is mindfulness. Tell me how you came to the world of mindfulness.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Sure. So I started practicing yoga back in London and it took me a while to find teachers I liked. And I remember one day I was walking out of a yoga class in East London, and I asked myself, I heard, I heard myself ask myself, should I get into meditation?
And I heard my inner voice, which is really weird, but I did hear it say, you will, but not now. And it was very stern, so I kind of took it. I was like, okay, she seems to know what she's talking about. And so I walked home, and when I was in New York, there were occasionally an optional meditation class after yoga, but generally those were led without any guidance, and I was like, eh, didn't really get it.
And so, I came to meditate really only after I went to Thailand for the second time. I went to a holistic resort to fix myself a bit because I was working very hard and I was near burnout at the time and And I like to think that it was raining that day, and that's why I was not on the beach. Because my idea of relaxation and wholesomeness involves me and a pile of books, Factor 50, and like a turquoise sea.
So that's, that's about it. And, uh, and so, yeah, either I had taken too much sun or it was raining. And that's why I ended up in that meditation class. And. It did say Loving Kindness Meditation and I didn't know what it was, but I went and I sat there. It was a small group, maybe it was 12 of us, sat like in a semicircle with a very lovely, gentle instructor in the middle.
Everyone looked a bit uncomfortable actually. And we were sat on, on legless chairs. I don't know if you've been in one. So it's got a back, but no legs. And yeah, and so we had this practice of loving kindness and there was nothing transcendental about it. But at the end, I remember vividly our instructor saying, Imagine how powerful it would be if someone were to do this every day.
And this is my inner voice again, it's so strange. And I thought to myself, challenge accepted. And, and so, and so I left. I didn't talk to the guy. I remember walking up the steps and then walking back towards my room. And it was a very steep hill. I remember arguing internally going, okay, how long do you think I need to do this to establish a practice?
Because I heard. People say you need to do something for 21 days, for 40 days, for 60 days. I was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time, and so I thought, I'm going to do it for six months. That should do it. Because then I don't have to do the research of establishing which one of this is the most credible way to install a practice.
And so the next day I tried and as a moron, I actually, because I was trying to be productive with my day, I decided to, I'm not, it's so silly, I decided to practice meditation while in an infrared sauna. Have you been in an infrared sauna at all? Never. Sounds like delirium to me. Okay, so the thing that's very, So it's, it's really helpful for people like me with an autoimmune disease.
That's why it was prescribed to me. It is really, really good for you. But so what happens is that it's actually quite a low temperature when it starts. So when you sit inside, you're like, nothing's going to happen. And then 20 minutes in, you're just kind of suffering quite heavily. And so trying to practice loving kindness while in an infrared sauna was not the easiest thing to do.
And I did that for six days. But essentially, it was funny because I remembered what the instructor had told us. For those who don't know, loving kindness, which is also called metta in Pali, is a Buddhist type of meditation. It's known to be as the antidote to fear. And to practice metta, you repeat phrases silently.
And what's important is all of these phrases need to have a universal. element to them. So you can imagine that all beings everywhere around the world would aspire to the same well wishes. And so I remember the phrases, may I be well, may I be happy, may I be peaceful, may I feel loved. And then you turn it around to other people.
So you turn it around to a benefactor, then you turn it towards a neutral person. So when you don't know enough to have formed an opinion as to whether you like or don't like them. Then you send those well wishes towards a loved one. a challenging person and then all beings everywhere. And so I didn't study it.
I didn't buy a book because I felt like he gave me all I needed to practice. I just, I had everything. I just did it, which is, it's funny because sometimes To be clear, I'm very linear sometimes. If you tell me what to do and how to do it, I'm just going to go and do it. If he'd said, go and do it and find a book, I probably would have done just that.
And over the course of the six months, I started to feel and notice changes in my inner life, so to speak. And the way I like to explain it is that, so you know, we all live with, we all live with someone else. We don't talk about it, but we all have an inner roommate. And some of us have inner roommates that are more difficult than others.
Sometimes it may feel like they're multiple, but they're only ever one voice and it's yours. Sometimes they say I, and sometimes they say you. Essentially what I noticed after a few weeks is that my inner roommate became supportive. And I remember very well when it happened the first time because I think that sometimes the inner roommate tends to be really difficult about really small things.
A few months later, once I started to explore mindfulness and loving kindness, I found a really famous teacher called Sharon Salzberg who had a very similar experience to mine. So I was in my Parisian kitchen and I was About to make some rice and in trying to open the bag of rice, which was plastic, it burst open and rice flew all over the kitchen and instead of cursing, which normally is probably what I would have done.
I heard that same inner voice say, it's okay. And it's not just the word, it's the tone that was used that changed. And I was like, huh? And then I noticed it in moments where I'd never heard that tone. It's not like, I don't feel like I have the worst inner critic, right? Yeah. But, but there was a care and, and, and, and a tone that I genuinely, I can't explain it any other way.
And so this was my inroad. I did this for six months and then I was like, Whoa, my life is so much better. What else could I do? And then a friend of mine had sent to me the podcast by the. mindfulness teacher and therapist Tara Brach. And I started listening to her Dharma talks. Actually, at the beginning, I didn't like following her so much because I didn't like her voice.
But once I heard her story on the Tim Ferriss podcast, I completely fell in love with her. And it's funny because I heard one guided meditation and I was like, Nope, can't meditate with her. Then discovered her then fell in love with her. So see, telling your story, Kind of an important thing to do. Yeah.
And I was listening to a lot of Tim Ferriss, he has helped me in lots of ways. And so Tara was my inroad to mindfulness that so I went from loving kindness for six months into trying mindfulness. And then I threw some Kundalini and Vedic meditation on top just for fun. But what stuck was the mindfulness.
And essentially one Or over a bunch of weeks, some of my friends started to ask me, what are you doing? Because you seem different. And I said, yeah, sure. I've been doing meditation and it's been great. And some of my friends started to ask for resources. So I sent the books that I was reading, the podcast I was listening to, the teachers I was discovering.
And eventually over the course of a long goal setting writing session, under my pen, I saw you. I saw the words come up. They were very surprising. I saw the words that I wanted to become a yoga and meditation teacher. And to be very clear, it was very surprising and It was not a great surprise because I did not know what to do with that information.
Etain Lavelle: Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Because I was, you know, in Paris it
Etain Lavelle: came
Anne V Muhlethaler: outta Paris, not loving Paris in a very different career. And I did not know what to do with that. And that did not sit particularly right with me, although I could see why it made sense. And so what I did next, and I don't remember if it was the same day or the day after, is I gave myself a moment.
I really, I was doing self coaching before becoming a coach, and I asked myself why. Why would that make sense? Why would I become a mindfulness meditation teacher or yoga teacher? And the answer is,
it's going to make me emotional. Um, so what I discovered that day is that I would have really benefited from those tools. when I was, when I was 16 or 17 years old. So I was, the reason why I wanted to become a mindfulness and loving kindness teacher is because it has made my life so much better. It's made me feel so much better in my own skin and feel so much more whole, but also made me feel so much more connected to everyone else.
It's just opened me up in a way that I had never ever expected. It's still unfolding as it's. It's, it's a constant practice. And it's only ever as good as a practice, um, because mindfulness and loving kindness, they're traits and they're states, right there, they can be either or, and, and you need to cultivate them over a long time for them to, to stick.
And I'm hoping that over the next years of my life, I will continue to grow as a teacher and be able to offer these tools to people who need them as much as I needed them. And so. Though I am not qualified or doing that yet, I hope that in the future, I will be offering mindfulness and loving kindness to teenagers, because that would really tie that loop.
And actually, to be very clear, I never wanted to come back to Switzerland, never. But the day that I figured that I wanted to be a mindfulness meditation teacher, because I had this connection to my younger self who need these kind of tools, I kind of thought would probably be good if I tried to do that back home where I experienced the troubles that I experienced.
And so, yeah, I've been certified.
Etain Lavelle: Yeah. Coming back to your teenage years and back to Geneva, back to Switzerland, Earlier on in our talk, we talked about music and its importance. I suppose one of the things I'm interested in is what, what does music mean today to you? And what is your favorite sound? I mean, you're now a podcaster on top.
So in a way, sound is more important than music possibly, but maybe you can talk us through how you came to podcast as a second part of that question.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Sure. I think that one of the ways that I've analyzed it is that, self expression or the use of voice has been important to me over a lot of my life, I guess.
Does that make sense? So I was a singer for many years and I used my voice in that way. I was crystallizing what I was living and by being a singer, I became comfortable with a microphone. I became comfortable on a stage, whereas I was shy and I did not want to be on stage. But my love of music made me overcome my natural tendency.
for being in the background. And I think that I have crystallized a lot of my earlier work experience and what I went through in my twenties and thirties is now being expressed by another form of voice. And that's what is coming through in the writing that I do with my newsletter, The Metaview. That's what also comes through in the podcast and, and also probably in the way that I am using.
my stories and other people's stories as I teach, whether it's live in person or recorded classes on online. So the podcast is a new expression of a different form of crystallization. I think I understood in the early days after leaving my employment at Louboutin that by going freelance and studying mindfulness, meditation, and yoga, I, was, I was living in a funky place.
I have a different vantage point because on the, on the one hand side, I have all this experience in international global expertise in building a luxury brand and communication. And then on the other hand, I am deeply involved with Buddhist and yogic ethics and cosmologies and stories and the study of, of joy and love and kindness and compassion.
and what it means to live a life with intention, to live life with a mindful lens. And so I figured this vantage point was sufficiently niche to be potentially a platform that could offer conversations with others to explore their life journeys. And I know that a lot of my guests will speak more about their career than their personal lives, because that's what they know what to talk about.
To my point about story of me, not everyone knows how to, or, or is comfortable bringing their personal story into these conversations. Yeah. But I guess that I really enjoy learning from others. I think podcast is a different kind of music to me. Long form interview podcasts, for example, because they are, they are incredibly intimate.
They are very wide ranging and you get to learn so much from others in a way that we never had the possibility in the past. And I have so many things that have changed in my life because of podcasts that I heard, because of intimate, long form conversations with two strangers at the other end of the world that have made my world or my perspective suddenly just that little bit wider.
or different. And so I decided to offer myself the opportunity to try that and to see if that would stick. And so it's been almost four years. I think by the time we air this, it will be actually the anniversary of the launch of the podcast out of the clouds. And I feel like it's just, it's that thing that balances between the mindfulness And the teaching and my aspirations for, for offering tools that will help others and in the reality of, of living and building things in the world with others.
And it's a space of exploration and hopefully a place of insights.
Etain Lavelle: As we draw to the close, I wanted to, to use, I suppose, the concept of language and the language that you choose of all of the languages that you speak, actually, and maybe enlighten us as to what you would say today your favorite book is and in what language.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Ooh, that's an interesting question. So when I was a little girl, I was maybe ten years old, we were to put a play at the end of the school year, and our teacher distributed a script in the class and said, just have a look through tonight and tomorrow everyone can sort of ask to get the role that they want.
And It's a memory that is weirdly specific. But I found a role that I wanted, and it was a small part. And I really liked acting, so I would have normally wanted a bigger part. The role was called Script Girl, in English. And I didn't know what it meant. But, the sound itself was so exotic to me, I was like, me, me, me, me, me, when the teacher said who wants Script Girl?
It was almost as if I had uncovered a diamond, that's the way, it, it sparkled on the page. A few years ago I decided to choose English. solely for writing because I felt like it would do a disservice to try and do both French and English at the same time. And also because I've worked in English for so many years, I feel like my French, my written French has definitely deteriorated.
My favorite book in English is Without a doubt, the 40 rules of love by Elif Shafak, and she's a wonderful, wonderful writer in my head. I hope that one day we will be best best friends. Um, and it's interesting because she has a wonderful YouTube channel where she actually sometimes looks at the etymology and the The difficulties in, in approaching certain concepts like love, um, in certain languages over others, because some languages have 10 or 15 words for love and English only has the one.
So anyway, The 40 Rules of Love is an incredible book. Uh, it's a dual story that tells the between Rumi and Shams of Tabriz. And it's full of beauty and sadness and marvel and wisdom and I love it endlessly. I've actually read it in three languages. I own it in Italian as well. I can read that now. Um, Uh, what is my favorite book in French?
The one that comes up for me now, it's, It's a book that my father gave me and it was a real adventure to read it. It is translated in English. In French it's called L'Usage du Monde, I will have to look up the translation, by a Swiss writer called Nicolas Bouvier and he, in it he narrates the story of his trip from Switzerland to Afghanistan in a little car, I don't know, I don't remember which kind of car it was because I read it a long time ago.
Him and his friend who was an illustrator stopped at various places on their way to Afghanistan and stayed for two, three weeks and they would offer their skills as a writer and illustrator to earn money before setting off on their way and it's One of the most beautiful books about taking a journey that I've ever read.
I really, really highly recommend it. I haven't read tons of books in Italian, but I would recommend everyone check out the Neapolitan stories by Elena Ferrante, starting with My Brilliant Friend. It is just the most epic story of friendship you can ever read.
Etain Lavelle: Agreed. You mentioned places and travel. You have been to most places in the world and you have traveled widely.
Is there one place that has marked you in particular?
Anne V Muhlethaler: It's funny because I ask everyone that question, but I've never tried to answer it before. Where is one place that has? I think a few places come up. Thailand, I think Koh Samui was really magical and I think it's, it still is. I just haven't been for a few years. I feel like I also discovered Koh Samui in Thailand at a time where I needed to feel a lot of love and kindness.
a lot of warmth. And I have to say that the warmth that I have found and experienced in and around Thailand when I traveled was exceptional. It's a place that has replenished my soul in many ways. And the other place that I haven't been to in a while, but that really has marked me is, it's Sydney, it's Australia.
Because when I was near burnout and I took a one month sabbatical from my work because I really needed to to recuperate a bit. I chose to go literally to the other end of the world. And again, I found myself very held by the people that I met. It was a very wild environment. because of the places that I went to, as well as a very warm environment from the people.
Oh my God, the yoga was an unbelievable, the coffee's amazing, the food's amazing. I mean, yeah, and I met my, my friend Marion's friends, but there was a lot of synchronicities that happened in that trip. It was a very special trip. I should consider going back soon.
Etain Lavelle: Yes, definitely. But before you go back there, there's one final question I wanted to ask you, and it was if you could step into the future, what advice would you give yourself as you are today?
Anne V Muhlethaler: It's funny, I have stepped and met my future self before. There's a coaching thing that we do with a coach called Tara Moore. So I've, I've visited my inner mentor. She has a really funky name. Her name is Professoressa Nani. Don't try to make sense of that. She's teaching something, essentially. She said, trust the process.
And it's funny because someone I mentor just gave a speech yesterday. And that was her takeaway. Keep going and trust the process.
Etain Lavelle: Good advice.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Thank you, Nani. Thank you, Etan.
Etain Lavelle: Thank you. So. I enjoyed that. Super. I think it was really
Anne V Muhlethaler: good. So Etan, um, how, how have you found me as an interviewee? Are you satisfied?
Etain Lavelle: I think you're a very thoughtful interviewee and you're very eloquent and it's been an absolute delight speaking to you today. Next time we'll have to do it in another language. I can't speak all of yours, but Maybe just French. Oh yeah. That could
Anne V Muhlethaler: be fun.
I hope that in the near future we are going to have more conversations and perhaps not just the two of us. Yes, I've, I've got more ideas about that, that I can't wait to share with you by the. I agree. So we should organize to get on another call. It's going to be very exciting. And I really appreciate you taking the time to help me tell my story.
One of the things that I need to tell our listeners is. I pride myself, as I think you do, of trying to ask questions and not talk too much, not interrupt and not, not share too many of my own stories over the stories of my guest. And oftentimes when I do, I actually edit myself out. And I had a few friends who had said, but we want to hear your stories.
When are we going to hear more about you? And of course, even though we know each other intimately, there's a lot of things that we can share or discover about each other when we ask those kinds of questions. So I really appreciate you making the time and the space to making this happen because it's, it's a different kind of experience for me, for sure.
Etain Lavelle: It's a, yeah, it's a different kind of conversation, always as interesting as ever, but I think it's, it's really interesting for everybody to understand exactly what you do and where you've come from. The journey that we've all been on, yours has been particularly interesting, I would say.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Well, thank you so much.
Have the most wonderful rest of your day. Say hi to Pat and the whole family for me.
Etain Lavelle: I'm going to go feed him now because he's very cross. He's hanging out by the bowl, waiting desperately for his supper. And Nandi is, uh, falling back asleep. Patch is food led, as we know. Nandi doesn't want to eat anything, ever.
He needs some of the gourmandise. Tell Patch I'll bring him more treats very soon. Oh my god, yes please. Come and stay, yeah, come and stay. Bring Patch some treats and come and stay on the top floor.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Okay, that sounds wonderful.
So, friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice. And if you'd like to connect with me, you can find me at Anvi on threads, on Instagram, Anvi Muhlethaler on LinkedIn, if you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes, or on Instagram at Anvi.
underscore out of the clouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website, outoftheclouds.com. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the Metta View, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, and much more.
conscious communication, and the future of work. That's The Metta View with two T's, themettaview. com. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe, and take care.