Arthur Gourounlian (@gourounlian) is an Armenian-born professional dancer, choreographer and television personality, and most recently one of the three judges on Dancing with the Stars Ireland.
Arthur has performed and toured with some of the most beloved performers of recent time, from Bananarama to Beyoncé, Pink to Kylie Minogue, and many more. After a successful career as a dancer, he went on to take a leading role in casting, coaching, movement directing and choreographing music videos, world tours, media campaigns, and trade/fashion shows for Christian Louboutin, Diesel, Puma, Jean-Paul Gaultier among others. He has also appeared on television and movies, fashion shows, and advertising campaigns himself, and performed in Britain's Got Talent, Celebrity X Factor, the Brit Awards and The Royal Variety Show.
Arthur and Anne met in 2010 when she was working for Christian Louboutin. They collaborated on a project for online platform Fashionair, when Arthur trained Christian for his first and only dance performance, which culminated in a viral video that saw the famous shoe designer tap dance his way in a dream sequence on a London stage.
In this conversation, Arthur shares with Anne his harrowing journey from Armenia to Belgium as a refugee with his family, escaping the war when he was just twelve years old. Then how, while their refugee status was still being decided, his family was rocked by the death of his father. Shortly after, young Arthur left for Brussels to try his hand at hairdressing, only to find himself being picked out of the crowd and selected as a dancer. From there, Arthur discusses his many surprises and successes, how he went from Milan to London, and made his mark on the dance scene as a performer before turning to choreography and creative direction.
Arthur dreamt of making it big, an homage to his father, and moving away from the refugee status he carried as an adolescent. The successful and charismatic personality is also the other half of one of Ireland’s most beloved celebrity couples, as he is married to Big Brother alumni/star Brian Dowling. The two of them recently welcomed their first child into the world, Blake Maria Rose, and Arthur shares the ups and downs that have led to this most joyous moment.
Arthur’s story is quite unlike any other. As Anne reflects to him, it’s epic enough to be hinting at Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey. A sparkling, touching and deeply positive interview with someone who will certainly light up your day. Happy listening.
Favourite quote of the episode: ‘I only keep things that Arthur wants to keep because I only keep what I think is best for me. Why would I listen to you? It's your journey. I want to create my own journey.’
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You can out more about Arthur on his website: http://arthurgourounlian.com/
IG - https://www.instagram.com/gourounlian/
Facebook - Arthur Gourounlian - https://www.facebook.com/arthurgourounlian
and his Youtube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/user/arthurgourounlian
and Vimeo - https://vimeo.com/arthurgourounlian
The Fashionair film Dancer in a Day Dream featuring Christian Louboutin and Arthur - https://youtu.be/esXVbslAvVY
The making of the film - https://youtu.be/ZxwocNpdl4Q
You can also discover Arthur's new venture, AG Socks - https://theagofficial.com/products/the-gourounlian
Notre Dame de Paris, the musical - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris_(musical)
Sous le Soleil TV show -https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0172057/
The podcast Mamia & Me featuring Arthur and his husband Brian Dowling - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dont-wake-the-baby-with-brian-dowling/id1570246269?i=1000559798535
The blooper real with Arthur and Brian touching up their hair - https://youtu.be/MPMxXk0usVI
The song 'Maniac' by Michael Sambello - https://open.spotify.com/track/7CML07e8m56LrmgkC4Bl3Z?si=9462b40d81fb4e98
Dancing with the Stars Ireland - https://www.rte.ie/tv/programmes/dancing-with-the-stars/
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Anne V Muhlethaler:
Hi, hello, bonjour, and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I am your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Today, my guest is Arthur Gourounlian. Arthur is an Armenian-born professional dancer, choreographer, and television personality. Most recently, he has become one of the three judges on Dancing With the Stars Ireland.
Arthur and I have known each other since 2010, when he creative directed and choreographed a wonderful film featuring my then boss, Christian Louboutin. Arthur was not just in charge of teaching Christian choreography for the piece, which was commissioned by Fashionair, a fashion platform at the time. Arthur also had to train Christian to learn to tap dance over the course of a week. That was quite an adventure, and by the end of it, all of us were besotted with Arthur.
Arthur's got quite the story, and dare I say, has lived through many an adventure, although some of them have been incredibly difficult. Arthur, in this interview, tells me the story of how he and his family left Armenia during the war, when he was 12 years old, and left everything behind on the pretense of going on a holiday to Denmark. They were able to settle, for a while, at least, in Belgium. But a couple of years after they arrived, Arthur's dad suddenly passed away.
This was a catalytic event for Arthur, and he shares with us how the then Armenian shy boy ran to Brussels and decided to live his life to the fullest, first becoming a hairdresser, then starting to dance as a go-go dancer first. How he made his way up the ranks without professional training and yet built a very successful career as a commercial dancer, before turning to artistic direction, and choreography, and much more.
Arthur has an incredible positivity and a very generous personality, and I was very inspired by the way that he was able to shrug, let go of advice and negativity around him, and how he pick and chose what would serve him, what would serve his ultimate goal. Earlier this year, Arthur and his other half, Brian Dowling Gourounlian, welcomed their first child, a baby girl called Blake. And so, he also tells me the story of love, and family, and surrogacy.
So overall, just not your average interview. I mean none of them are. None of my interviews are average interviews, I believe. But this one is extra, extra special. Anyway, without further ado, I give you my beautiful and excitingly inspiring interview with Arthur Gourounlian. Happy listening. Arthur, welcome to Out of the Clouds.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Merci beaucoup. Thanks for having me.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's such a pleasure to have you live in front of my face. As you were reminding me, we haven't been in the same room together since 2014.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my god, a long time.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's been a while. But you have the most amazing Instagram feed, and so you've been lighting up my days on a regular basis over these past few weeks, so it's an absolute joy to have you here.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you so much for having me. Honestly, it's a pleasure. Sometimes they say you meet someone and they will always stay in your life. Doesn't matter if you see them every day or once a week, but then when you see them... You are in front of me right now. I feel like we never left. I feel like I remember when we met in 2010, that's the first time we met, and we always spoke. We always seen Instagram. As you said, Instagram became a part of our life. So I feel like you've always been there. You always, you change your life, you change your route, what you're doing now, which is absolutely incredible. So I feel like we never left each other. But then some friends, you don't even talk, and you don't even pay attention what they're doing. I don't know how to describe, but I hope I'm describing right, if you know what I mean.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I know what you mean. But now I need to ask you, does it ever happen for you not to spark with people? Because you are a very sparky and sparkly kind of guy.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Do you know what? I love life. I'm very positive. I think because from where I'm coming from for what I have in my life, I always, always stay positive. So when I meet someone and I get on, I'm very bad at telephone calls, but I'm very good at emails, WhatsApp, or old-fashioned way, fax, let's say. But I'm really bad on talking on the telephone. I don't know why.
Because I think my whole life is so hectic all the time, so the phone calls describe what I want to say on the phone call, but WhatsApp, I can send a voice note, or I can actually text you straight away, and then we can communicate. And during the day, where I communicate with several different friends from around the world, which is amazing, but I always spark with people. And if I don't spark Anne, which doesn't matter, not everybody can love you, it's life, c'est la vie, so I will say, "Thank you so much and goodbye." That's it. I don't get upset.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You are very much of a philosopher when it comes to that. It took me many, many years to come to that same point. So as you may have heard, I love to start our podcast conversations with exploring who my guests are, and for them to tell our listeners about where they come from, what they were like as a kid, and how they came to be who they are today. So I know it's a big question, but would you tell us your story?
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's a great question. Of course I'll tell you my story. I mean, it's a long story, but I'm going to try to compact everything for you. I'm from Armenia. I'm a Dutch-Armenian. We left Armenia back in November, 1992. Obviously, the reason we were left Armenia, I was a young boy, I was 12 years old, so my family wanted the best for me and my sister, and they got this visa that was meant to be going to Denmark. Because at the time, everybody was trying to escape Armenia because of the war, but you couldn't get out of it.
So what I remember, we had that visa, we pretended we were going on holiday, we just packed our bags. I remember I had a mini bag with me. And then we just left. That was a massive blur. And obviously, we went through all the different countries, but we never made it to Denmark. I remember train after train, it took us about three weeks to get to Cologne in Germany, and then that's it. We didn't have money. It was my mom, my sister, my dad.
And my sister lately reminded me that she was standing there, and somebody thought she was homeless, and one man just gave money to her, and that money helped us to go to Belgium, where my uncle was. So we end up in Belgium. It's a long story, but we end up as refugees and seeking asylum in Belgium. So Belgium was the last spot we stopped, because we couldn't go to Denmark. We didn't have money. So yeah, I was a refugee asylum seeker. Again, I was very young. I was going on 13, 14 at the time, and it's my mom did everything. My mom did everything.
I have your paperwork now sometimes, when... I haven't even read all the paperwork. But the things they've done for us, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. We end up in Brussels, there's this place called Le Petit Chateau. It's a little castle. That's where they put all the refugees. So they put you there, and that they deciding what they're going to do with you. Either they're going to accept you, or, "Thank you so much. You have to go back to your country."
I mean, if they said to us, "You have to go back to your country," we were done. Because we left our home, we left everything, we didn't even know what was happening. And then, I think after the Salvation Army was helping us, and then after couple of days, because we were family, because we're not individual, they took us to another refugee camp, which was in Dinant, Yvoir. I think it's apartments now apart. Probably it's all gone. But it was the refugee camp, and that was the straw where they decided which family goes where.
And we were kind of lucky. We ended up in this little mini village called Malmedy in Belgium. We were the first Armenians. And this is going to sound such a big headed thing, but we became so known there. My mom was singing in the cathedral, and my dad started working for Red Cross. Obviously, we left Armenia in 1993, in November, and '94 went up in Malmedy, and then everybody started get to know us. We were the first big refugees. They're like, "Oh my god, what's going to happen with you?" Literally in two years, everybody knew us.
And then, unfortunately, being two years there in Belgium, my dad passed away. Two years, and then my dad, in 1996, my dad passed away, November, and my life changed because we didn't know what's happening. Obviously, we still, as refugees, two years there in Belgium, we don't know our status, what's happening. It's left, right, center. My mom and dad has to go. They have to go to Brussels to do the interviews. I can't even tell you what they were doing, because they were just going, "Everything's fine. Everything is good."
I remember we had this little apartment. We walked in, and the only thing they gave to us was a mattress. Jaffa Cakes, that's why I'm obsessed with Jaffa Cakes, and a bottle of Coca-Cola. Cola. That's all I remember literally there in the room. And then, when my dad passed away, I was 16 years old. At the time, I started doing hairdressing. My life completely changed, Anne. Completely. My dad's dream was to go to Paris to see the Eiffel Tower. When you're Armenian, Armenians are in France or Los Angeles. My dad's dream was to see Eiffel Tower.
And I remember, my life completely changed. I said, "I am going to live my life to the fullest. I do not care what people think about me. I do not care what's happening. I'm going to make things happen." Bear in mind, I'm still a refugee asylum seeker. Bear in mind, I don't have a passport. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know where I'm going. But I was doing hairdressing, and I was very selfish. I left my mom and my sister in that little village, and I moved to Brussels to carry on my hairdressing. And I was 17 at the time, 16 going to 17. Living on my own, I hustle and bustle, nothing can stop me. But obviously, I felt guilty leaving my mom and my sister, but I couldn't cop to live in the village. And I was like, "Where am I going with this?"
And then I remember that the last straw was the letter coming to Marmady to say that, "I'm sorry. You guys have to evacuate Belgium." That's it. Even though we just buried my dad, three months later, we have this letter saying, "Well, you have to go back. That's it. We don't want you here." And the mayor, which was absolutely amazing, he said to me, not to me, but to my mom, said, "Maria, I'm going to pretend I didn't see this letter. But when Brussels people coming, I can't do nothing. But right now, I'm not going to push you to leave Malmady." And that actually saved us couple of weeks, a few months.
And then my mom fell in love with someone, Paul, who actually saved our life. It's so weird, because Paul's wife, that exact same time as my dad, November, 1996. It's so weird. It's like they were meant to be meeting. And then he said, "You're not going to go anywhere. Are you crazy? You're not going anywhere. I'm going to marry you now. I'm going to marry you now. You are not going anywhere. Not going anywhere." And then, I think two years later we got a passport after one year that Paul got hemorrhage and he got paralyzed. It's so funny. Not funny. Sorry, why am I even saying funny? It's weird. Paul had an hemorrhage and he got paralyzed for 13 years. It's like they were saying to my mother, "Well, he saved your life, but now you have to look after him for the next 13 years."
He was paralyzed completely. He couldn't do anything. He saved our lives. And after three years... It's just so weird how everything kind of aligned. It's like he's saving us, but then now my mom's saving him. And he said to my mom, he said, "If I wasn't married to you, I had this, I would've been gone, because my family would've never, never looked after me. Thank you so much." And my mother always said, "Thank you. You saved our lives. You saved our lives." And when I got my passport, I was 18 years old, and that's when I went bonkers and said, "I need to start traveling. I need to do things. I need to do something with my life."
I always been ambitious, but I was very shy boy. I mean, now if my friends say, "You, shy? I don't think so." But I was very shy. Oh my God. Before 16, I was like, "Hello everybody, how are you doing?" But after my dad, I was like, "No, I love life too much." And when I finished hairdressing, I always wanted to be a dancer, or perform, or do something arty. I always want to be arty. In Armenia, I was always trying to show myself, performing and everything. Still being shy boy, still very shy. I feel like I'm an exhibitionist. But then behind, closed doors, I'm like, "Oh my God, don't talk to me. I don't know my name."
But I remember I got scouted by an agency from Paris. They were in Malmedy. And I was a little bit tall for my age. And they wanted to take me to Paris to sign me to an agency. And I said, "Oh my god, I would love to do that." But obviously, my parents said no. So when that's all happening, I'm finishing hairdressing, and I said, "Do you know what? I want to be a dancer." And everybody laughed because I never been trained, I don't know where to start, I don't even know if I could be a dancer. I'm still kind of a refugee, bear in mind. I don't know where I'm starting. I'm just doing hairdressing courses.
I was in a club in Antwerp, and I literally was just dancing. And I was around 19 years old at the time, and I start dancing, and then one of the girls came to me, said, "Can you come with me?" And at the time, I wasn't speaking really well French, no English, and Netherlands. I wasn't really good at Dutch. So she said to me, she said, "Do you want to come with me?" And obviously, I was straight at the time, so I'm like, "Oh my gosh, she's hitting on me. This is cute. I like it. Okay, I'll come with you. Nothing could happen. It's in a club."
So I went upstairs, and you know when you're walking in, you're like a Kansas store, all the dancers, performers, glitter everywhere. I mean, what the hell am I doing here? What's happening, and why am I following this girl? And my friends downstairs, they're just having fun. And she said to me, "Can you get the shorts and go on and dance? Because between everybody, you were the good mover. You can move. Are you a dancer?" And I said, "I'm not a dancer, but..." And then she said, "Oh no..." Before I said I'm not a dancer, she said, "All your friends can have a free drinks."
And for a 19, 20 years old man, saying your friends can have free drinks, I mean, you're not going to say no. So long story short, you're putting these shorts, I think PVC shorts, and I had these massive angel wings. Massive. Only, never been on a podium, but it's like a mirage. It's like, I don't know what's happening to me. And she said, "Okay, you have 15 minutes to go and go-go dance." At the time, go-go dancing, I mean, it's not big now maybe, but at the time, being a club dancer, it was elite. It was like, "Oh my god, the dancers, they're like the gods."
So I literally went on the podium, music started, and my first song, it was Stardust. And I remember I literally stood there, music playing. It's like they were waiting for me, but they were not. In my head, they were waiting. With my massive angel wings. And I went, "Oh my God." And I just went crazy. And I remember everybody was heads up, staring at me at this Café d'Anvers, the place called.
And I start dancing four times. My friends are having fun. They're like, "What the hell are you doing there? What's going on here?" In the end of the night, this lady just came and paid me. And I went, "Oh my God, why are you paying me?" She's like, "Well, you kind of danced. You were working." "I mean, you paid me for me to have fun, and my friends having free drinks? Are you kidding me? I've been killing myself as a hairdresser doing everything and not even getting this much money." That was from Belgium at the time. And she said, "Yes, next week, same time." And she said, "Are you a dancer?" That's when she asked me, "Are you a dancer?" "I mean, I could be. If I did this now, do you want me to be a dancer? I could be. That's fine."
And she laughed, and she looked at me. I will never forget that look, from toe to head, head to toe, scanning me. She went, "Okay." This is pretty much my career. That's how... And I went, "Okay, what?" And she's like, "Okay, I'll book you next week." I went down, said to my friends, "Oh my God, I think I'm a dancer. I just got booked to come back next week now, to Antwerp, and start dancing." They literally laughed. But good laugh, like, "Oh my God, are you kidding me? It's like a movie. That's not possible." And I said, "It is possible. I'm actually going to be dancer." They're like, "Yeah, right. Of course, you are." And they were hairdressers. They were not even a dancer. They're just normal hairdressers.
And I remember, I went home, and I was living on my own, right in the middle of Brussels. I sat on my bed, and I went, "What just happened?" The best feeling in the world. People like, "Oh my God, are you going to be dancer? We heard you..." I was going back to salon, and I said, "Yeah, I'm going to finish." And I said to my big boss hairdressing, I said, "Listen, I don't want to work anymore, but I want to go to be a dancer." And he said, "No, no, you're amazing. You got huge career in hairdressing. Why don't I keep you?"
Because again, that's another story. When I was doing hairdressing, I was very frustrated because I was a quick learner, and I want to do big models and everything. And they still laugh on me saying, "You can't do that until you have diploma, darling." And I said, "But I want to do TV." And they're like, "You can't. You're only third year. You can't do TV."
And I remember my first TV work for hairdressing was for Eurovision, for Belgium. And I proved myself, and they put me there straight away. And I was the first boy in third year doing people's hair on live TV, basically. This was before dancing, even, before I got spotted as a dancer, because I was, again, very driven. And when I said to him, "I'm leaving the hairdressing," he said, "No, you're not. Okay. You can leave, but you're doing hairdressing for me at the same time. I mean outside, so Miss Belgium, all that stuff." And I went, "Okay, why not? Some money is great." He's like, "I never done this before, but you're going to work for me as a hairdresser, and you can dance."
Basically all of the refugee things gone out of my head now. That's it. Even though, but I never wanted people to feel sorry for me. And I never said, "Oh, I'm..." They know I was Armenian, but I'm never say, "Oh, I'm a refugee." I didn't have that words until my passport. Because I wanted to be... Because when I was in Malmedy, I was wearing Red Cross outfits, I mean clothes, and people laughed, and I was getting frustrated. I mean, I shouldn't, but my parents couldn't afford to buy anything. And I was getting frustrated because why they laughing at me? One girl saying, "Oh my God, that's my cousin's jacket which we dropped in the Red Cross, and you're wearing." Oh my god.
And when you're like 12, 13, 14, the teenage years starting, so I was always like, "I'm not going to make people feel sorry for me. I will do like I'm this power dog. I'll do anything." Do you know what I mean? No fear. I have no fear. Yeah. And I just left hairdressing. I started dancing. And it went into a rollercoaster. Things started happening. People like, "Oh my God, there's this new boy on the block."
And I remembered my first booking from that lady. I even forgot her name. One day, maybe I need to find her. I got booked in the gay club. And this is a big revelation. I wasn't even gay at the time. I know hairdressing, loving party, but I wasn't even gay. Being an Armenian, thinking you are gay, oh my God, no way. And I remember next week, I got booked into this gay club. And I remember standing there waiting for the girls to arrive. And I went, "Boy, boy, boy. What's happening?"
And I said to one of the guys, I said, "Where are the girls?" He said, "You're joking, right?" I went, "No, what do you mean?" And I was 19 at the time. I was like, "What do you mean you're joking?" I was like, "There's no girls." He's like, "It's a gay club." And I kind of had to stop myself, because I was like, "Oh my God, what my family would think? Oh my god, I'm in a gay club. Oh my God. Oh my God. That's it. I'm dead. I'm dead. I'm dead. Something going to happen." But I wasn't even paying attention, dancing a boy or something.
And then obviously, I danced, and I was loving it because you got all the attention, being in a gay club, topless with shorts and everything, so I was loving life. But then, because I was blocking my life, so much in front of my eyes. In Armenia, you got girlfriend at 19 years old, 21, you're married, by 23, you have kids. So that's how it was drilled in my head. I discovered myself, that I love both. And I remember I was the... And I started doing one or two classes there, and I met this guy, and one day I was cutting his hair, typically. I was like, "I'll cut your hair, I'm a hairdresser." And I just went out there, and I said, "Can I kiss you?" And when I kissed him, it's like I've been gay all my life, but without knowing it.
So it's like in one year, not even one year, a couple of months, so much has changed in my life. It was mental. I was like, "What is going on with me? He can't do anything much, but he can pick a move." And dancing in the clubs, it wasn't difficult. You just had to have energy. And bear in mind, I never drank, never took drugs, never smoked, nada. And when I was doing all this, people thought I was off my face, something happening. Never. I was clean. Water, just water. I had always so much energy, people couldn't understand why I'm like this. I didn't need anything.
But again, because I stood my grounds when people were offering me something, I was like, "I don't want it." They're like, "But you know you're not going to work in the industry, because you know how it is." I'm like, "It's okay. It's not for me, but thank you so much." But for some reason, I've seen people losing it because they didn't want to do it. But I didn't want to do it because I knew what I wanted. I think that's helped me a lot. I wasn't like, "Oh my God, let me try." No, I don't want it. It's fine. Thank you so much.
But me being Arthur, I'm so hungry, I'm so hungry, I want more. My husband always said, he's like, "You're never happy with what you have." I'll tell you why I'm not happy with what I have. Because I feel like in my head, I'm always going to go back to that refugee boy, and no money, and have that sad life I had. And I panic. Not panic. I don't really have panic, but I was like, "If I wake up sometimes because I had a dream that I'm in Armenia again." Do you know what I mean? So I don't want to feel that. And I'm always thriving for more. I'm always like, "Nothing will stop me."
And from then, I always, my dream, Anne, was to go to LA or London. But I was scared. I couldn't speak English. I'm hardly... It's only been like five years I'm in Belgium. I'm speaking French. It was so difficult for me. And I remember when I said, "This is where the dancing world started, showbiz, fake, backstabbing in your back. Not me. I don't care." I try to be me. Hello and goodbye. That's why my mama told me to say. That's all I did. And when I said, "Oh my God, guys, I would love to go to LA," or, "I might move to London." And everybody, literally, everybody part of my best friends, everybody laughed. They said, "You in London? Do you know, I've been in London, it's so hard. London, you get trained and people all over the world go there. You have to train for three years, then you have to have technique." And me being me, I went, "Okay, that's good. That's really good."
But again, I take from right side and come out left side. I only keep things that Arthur want to keep. Because I want to keep what I think is best for me. Why would I listen to you? It's your journey. I want to create my own journey. That's how I think. So long story short, one of my friends, we were dancing together, said, "I'm moving to Italy." I went, "Do you know what? It's not London, LA. I'll move to Italy with you. Why not? Let's go." It was 2001. I will never forget. Between that, I was actually auditioning for Notre Dame de Paris. I went, drove for auditioning, Notre Dame de Paris.
And guess what? And guess what? I went to the end before the show started, went to the end, and the only reason I didn't get it, I remember, oh my God... Max... Oh my god, what was the choreographer's name? She came to me, said, "Oh my God, we absolutely love you," in French, obviously. She's French. She said, but because I was too thin at the time and I was a man in love, she said, "Can you come back next year, or in a couple of months? Please, please."
And again, I was devastated. That's the first time in my life, I'm like, "Oh my God, I could do music. Notre Dame de Paris is amazing. I'm so close." But I was upset just a little bit. But then I'm like, "Okay, let's go to Starbucks. It's fine." Just have a coffee, that's how I react. I was with my... Like, "It's okay." I was there. Somebody spotted me to audition for Cirque du Soleil, for the show. It's a big show. I don't know if you know it.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I remember the name. What is that again?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Cirque du Soleil, it's like a-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Cirque du Soleil, and there's dancers there. And there was a guy who spotted me. He said: est-ce que tu peux venir? I was like, "Yeah, hello." He's like, "Where you from?" I was like, "I'm from Belgium. I just drove three hours to do this." He's like, "Okay. Do you want to audition? There's a show, Cirque du Soleil." I was like, "Oh my God. I know Cirque du Soleil. Oh my God." He was like, "Can you come and audition now?" And I went, "Yeah, I'll come." I auditioned, two hours later they call me, I got the job to be in Cirque du Soleil. And obviously, bear in mind, I was watching the show from Belgium. But once that's happening, my friend is deciding to go to Italy. So now-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]
Arthur Gourounlian:
... that's happening. My friends deciding to go to Italy, so now I'm like Italia, Sile Seoige, Italia, and because I wanted to go to London and LA, it's such a different momentum. It's not French speaking. It's a different language. I let Sile Seogie down. Everything happen for a reason. And I went to Italy. I was on tour in Spain. I came back, packed everything. My mom was like, "You're crazy." But my mama was the biggest supporter. I packed in 2001 September, I went to Italy.
And my new start, fresh, like 21 years old, man. I arrived in September. I got my first job and started working with big artists, Festival Bar. I was actually doing Lara Pazzini. I was working with Titiana Ferra. They were just starting up at the time. And we had another friend in common, she was a photographer, Maité. She was in Italy living near us. And I was there for four or five months. Everything going well. "Oh my God, I'm lucky. It's a dream." And I remember I said one day, again, ahead, "I need more." Anne, I need more. I can't relax. I feel like it's not the end for me yet.
I was on the bed, and I remember that time the Slave 4U from Britney came out, and I remember I saw a Puddin, MTV, and I saw It's Raining Men. It was Geri Halliwell, massive dancers, huge performance. Remember? I don't know if you remember. Huge. That was massive. And I went again, I said to everybody, I was like, "Oh my God, this is what I want to do. It is amazing. But I want to do international stars. I want to go places." And I remember, again, few other dancers said, "Listen, you're a go-go dancer. You have couple of artists, it's great, but this is London, this is LA. It's different level." And I said again, "Okay." So I remember December 2001 we said we're going to London. And I was living with her. I said, "I'm so sorry, letting you down." Said, "Arthur, listen to me carefully. You are not letting me down. Get out. You are going."
So I went Christmas back to Belgium 2001 and 2002, February 3rd, I moved to London with my friends, Miti. We literally arrived to Waterloo with a suitcase. I had bonjour sitting down here. Where do we go? The only place I knew was Pineapple Studios, which is like-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Cool. It's legendary.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I mean everybody's there. Literally the only place I know is Pineapple Studios. So I'm like, "What we going to do?" So we call a girl we met before. And then a friend of mine who I knew was living in Richmond, from all the places, Porsche Place, Richmond. I love Richmond. So I went there and we stayed with her for two weeks until we found our ground while we do. Remember, I can't speak English, I'm still probably can't, I couldn't even say to you what. I'm like, "Hello and goodbye." That's all I could say.
I remember I arrived at Pineapple Studios and I was in awe. I was like, "Oh my God, I'm in Pineapple Studio. Oh my God, where do I start?" And I remember I went... I was literally, I had goosebumps. And when I arrived, there's this gentleman and said, "But wait a minute." He went downstairs and brought this amazing guy, Martin Mathias, who lives in Paris now. He was a dance teacher there. Incredible. Martin Kemp start speaking French to me. I paid to do his class. I went, "Oh my God, thank you so much for helping me. I'm so lost. I don't know what to do." He said, "Don't worry. Listen, we help each other. Do not worry about it."
So I did the class, but bear in mind, nobody else there was helping me. Just Martin. He helped me. But people were just staring because there's so many dancers on. I don't know if I can swear, but about an Armenian guy who comes to London who can't speak English, who cares about him. Do you know what I mean? So thank God he spoke French. He helped me. And I remember I went back that night, and my date, and Juliet asked me, "How was it?" And I'm not upset, but I was like, "Do you know what? It's tough, but nothing can stop me."
And meanwhile my date was struggling. We were there two days, she having anxiety. She's like, "I can't do this. I don't want to..." One week she left. She went back to Italy. When she did that, I went, "Am I going to fail?" But I was like, "I am not going to fail." She literally couldn't. Said, "Arthur, you don't have to follow me, but it's your path." I'm like, "But why are you leaving? Why don't you keep pushing yourself?" I'm a pusher. All my friends, I'm always pushing them to do things. And she left. She went back to Italy. And I think also she met a guy. She was in love, so she head back to Italy.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Give us context.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Exactly. I was like, "Okay." But she was like, "No, it's not even the love, because I want to be a photographer in here." She's a great photographer now. I mean, she's amazing in Italy. She was-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
She wasn't feeling it.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Voila.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
She followed her instinct.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Correct. But at the same time, and now she'll be like, "I wish I stayed." But I think at the time she wasn't feeling it. But when you come to a country, you can't speak the language, you with someone, you think you together, you're going to go up. But then when somebody's leaving you after one week, you're like zutalia, "Where I going?" Literally, zutalia. I was like, "God, what am I going to do?" But I never give up. I just went. And I will never forget, I did my first big casting, which was a dance, I'd say one another class places.
At the time you do castings for agencies. And when I was doing, I remember I turn up, and everybody was like this tight and everything. And I here I am with big hair, with a barbichette blanche. I was androgynous kind of looking. But I looked Italian. Everybody thought I was Italian at the time. So I went there. I mean, "Do you know what? I'm just going to go with the flow." And I auditioned. I literally auditioned, killed it, in my head, killed it, killed it. And there's only, I think, seven boys they kept for the agency. And I was one of them. There was about thousands, thousands.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Which agency was it?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Scott Baker. Doesn't exist anymore. Scott Baker, she looked after me and she signed me. And I remember they asked me to sing. I mean, I'm not a singer, but I can do a song... And I start singing. They're like, "Okay. It's fine. It's fine. You can stay." And I got it. But then, you have to work. I need to make money. I have no money. The only money I have is from the go-go dancing and artist I done in Italy. So next day there was another audition for Great Yammak, like a leisure, Porter's leisure. It's like you go in, a holiday thing, there's performances on stage.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's called Porter's. And I remember, I will never forget, I auditioned two days later, lots of people. They need two boys. I was one of them. I got the job. I not speak English.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I mean this speaks to your talent.
Arthur Gourounlian:
But you see, again, I never been trained, but if I listened to everybody who said don't go, I would've never made it, Anne, because they kind of like, not push me down. But they're like, "Babe," they say, "Non, je ne crois pas que tu vas faire ça. I don't think, no, it's too difficult for you." I mean, "Okay, that's fine. That's fine." And when I did the job, I got the job, obviously I couldn't speak English, I called Martin. "Martin, s'il-te-plait, j'ai un contrat mais je ne sais pas quoi faire! No, no, no." And then at the time there was, because when you do auditions in London years ago, they were like two, three choreographers or casting directors, so they wanted to book me for pantomime. Never mind, I don't know, pantomime. They wanted me to do a pantomime. And I said to Martin, "je fais Potters or Pantomine?" He like, "No, no darling, you're not here for the pantomime. You want to be a superstar." So do Potter's. Make some money for three months. And then you'll see. I was like, "Okay. But they offer me the job." I was so excited. I have two job offer, what do I do?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's beautiful to have a mentor who's literally guiding you throughout.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You absolutely nailed it. He did my first contract. It's like my life, I said to my husband, to my friends, "I have 10 lives." Another time I went to Porter's for three months. That was June, July, August 2002. I'm very freaky with date. I know my date. I know exactly what did I do where. I went there, and I remember again, another thing changing my mind, I was sitting with my friends, which I was actually talking to her a couple of days ago, Michelle, we were watching Star in Their Eyes. I don't know if you ever heard of that show. It's basically people-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And I said, "Oh my Gosh, what is this show? I would love to do something like that." It was similar to Belgium, I was doing something like that. But this is legit. This is the big TV show. And Michelle was so constant, she said, "This is the top commercial dancers get the job." It's hard. It's singing and dancing-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's not very achievable, basically.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Let's basically, basically... I thought, "Okay, great." So August, again, date, August 2002. I finished the contract. Thank you so much. "Don't you want to stay more?" I'm like, "No. The contract was three months. I want to do something else, because I didn't come here... It's great money. But I didn't come here. I want to do artists." I came, there was an audition, free audition, free casting call. At the time, I was doing this little show for L'Oreal. So I had like David Bacon, like a wide stripe on my head trying to be cool for L'Oreal, which, as you do, and I was loving it.
I did the audition. It was for Star in Their Eyes. So I'm turning out to dance at it, lots of people. I was like, "There's no way. No way I'm going to get the job." Plus on everything I've done in my life, it was free class. As a dancer, I never got upset. It's a free class. Why you upset? Instead of paying 15 pounds, or 5 pounds, or 10 pounds, it's a free class, just have fun. Who cares? That's how I actually treat it in my head. So I'm doing a free class. Dancing, dancing, dancing. I didn't get the job. "Thank you so much." I'm like, "It's fine. Thank you so much. Bye-bye now."
Three days later, Scott Baker, Lucy's calling me, "Hi, darling there's this guy saying there's a recall, but I wanted to put you forward." And at the time I had a black hair now, finished L'Oreal. I was like, "Oh Lucy, I think I know which one, but I don't want to embarrass myself. I've done it. It's not going to work. They didn't want me." "No, no, no, you're going. You're going, but relax." Straightforward.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I love an agent that knows that.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's all about the agencies.
"No, no, you're going." I was like, "Okay, again, free class. I'm going back." Now bear mind this is a recall. So the top one, the top, top boys and girls are there. I'm going. And they recognize me. And I went, "I'm going to do it." And you know what? When you got nothing to lose in life, which I didn't have anything to lose in my life, I went for it. They need one boy. Who got the job? Me. I got the job.
And I got the job, and I will never forget, I confronted Michelle Thorne. We're always laughing at something these days, because she's my third job. I had Porter's, L'Oreal, and she's my third job in UK. And I said, "Can I ask you something? I was here two days ago and you don't pick me." Said, "We absolutely loved you, but you had that silly hair. We don't have time to change your hair. We start rehearsing next day." And this is why when you do castings, you have to be prepared. I'm learning. It was a learning procedure for me. Every casting you do, make sure you actually present yourself for that job. I got the job and I did the biggest show for three months. It was insane. I did Star in Their Eyes, it was magnificent.
But again, when I did it, I called Michelle, my friend, said, "I got Star in Their Eyes." She start screaming. She's like, "Are you freaking kidding me? Are you freaking kidding me? This is one in a million to just from where you're coming from." Because so many dancers stayed in Porter's for the next 10 years. The thing is, Michelle, would pull me back sometimes, because I was technically trained, and I will confront her. And she was like, "Listen, you're amazing. But there's a technicality. I wanted people to be in front."
And I love honesty. Because if you don't tell me what's wrong with me, how would I ever know? If you always put me in the back. So you have to kind of confront in a nice way. And I was very punctual, and I did everything I have to do. So I did that. And then, Anne, when I say I was so blessed and lucky, everything kind of fell in place. I was finishing a job, next one was starting. I was auditioned, Snake. And I believed everything happen for a reason. I have to follow my guts and do what I have to do. There was a moment... I don't know if you know Blue Peter. I've got the job-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course, I mean, I can't say that I watched it because it's a children program.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's a children. But I never knew about Blue Peter. So I remember the agency, I auditioned, as you know, Scott Baker. The choreographer, very famous choreographer, Gary Lloyd and Kim Gavin. They're legends in UK. And Gary was doing Blue Peter, and I got the job. And I was like, "Oh, what's Blue Peter?" After Star in Their Eyes, again, people stayed for Star in Their Eyes, I did one season, and I left, because I wanted more. Always more. Don't settle for just, because you're happy. I mean I was happy, but I wanted more. Come on, I want to do tours. I want to do even bigger TV. And I remember I did Blue Peter, and there's a massive accident happened to me, and I thought, "That's it. I'm done." And I was-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
What accident?
Arthur Gourounlian:
I was jumping off the stage and my shoes were very slippy, and my left knee went, my ligaments kaput, gone. And I thought, "That's it. I'm over. I'm done." Literally I was only there for nine months. I was like, "That's it, I'm done." I wasn't even crying because the pain was there, but I couldn't even cry. Because like, "Oh my God, are you..." The cry was internal, not external. So I had to have a couple of days off. I went to my friend's house. Leg was literally like a hippopotamus. My left leg, like massive.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Man, that must be so painful.
Arthur Gourounlian:
So painful. And also devastating. The pain I could cope even though it was horrendous. But there was some jobs lined up. I was meant to be doing Royal Variety. Never even heard about Royal Variety. But I'm like, "Oh my God, in six weeks I have a show." The doctor said a year off.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
In your dreams you're going to have that show.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You're finished, your career's finished. I went to with my friends, I should have never done it, that's why I don't really do much. She said, "Clairvoyant." And she, "I can see you have a dilemma, but you start teaching because dancing is not for you anymore." She told me in Covent Garden, the shops in Covent Garden, where have these clairvoyant shops.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
What a crook.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I swear to God I have that tape, actually. I couldn't even speak English at the time. So I have the tape. And she told me my career's over. I will never forget, my leg is so big, I called Gary and Kim, I said, "I'm coming back." Because the job was for Gary for a little bit of... He said, "Arthur, but you can't dance." "I can. I can." With my swollen leg, after six weeks I was up. Kids don't do this at home. You should not do this. You should rest.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I know. I'm like, this is not good advice.
Arthur Gourounlian:
No, this is not good advice. You have to rest. That being me, I was like, again, I nearly died three times. Literally three times in my life when I was young.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I see what you mean. The impetus for you to go on, to continue, to press on, to work towards your goal was just so insanely powerful that you just had to go. It's interesting because many, many people, especially artists, especially dancers, but a lot of athletes will suffer injuries. And there're great consequences for those who don't rest and give the body a chance to heal. Most of the time it's ego that pushes people to go back. And for you, it doesn't sound like it's ego. It sounds like it's something bigger than you.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Because Anne, if I didn't do this, what do I have? It wasn't ego. I wasn't celebrity. I wasn't power. I was upset. What do I have? This is my career. I just want to be a dancer. I was no one. I was just a dancer between a hundred thousand dancers. I just want to prove that I can do it. But also I was suffering. And when I did the job, I mean I'm not recommending this to anybody today, but when I was doing the job, I was suffering. But I went through, I was sweating, I was biting on my tongue, standing on, it was Palladium in London, standing there.
But also Kim Gavin and Gary were absolutely amazing. They knew I was little energy. They would look at me like, "Okay mate, don't worry." So they were so amazing to me. They're like definition of creator and choreographer who actually feel your pain, but they still love you, and they want you to succeed. And I remember I would still go down... We were doing Anastasia and you have to go on your knees. I mean, I think it's on YouTube, because I have to go on my knees. I was going it, but I was camouflaging it. So it looks like I'm amazing. But so much cheating was going on there.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Huge. It's the idea. I feel like I've seen that Anastasia performance. I know exactly what movie it is.
Arthur Gourounlian:
2002, Royal Variety, Google.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Just thinking about it, I'm in pain for you.
Arthur Gourounlian:
When you watch that, I am in pain from beginning. I mean we're doing different artists because we were the dances for Royal Variety with young Gareth Gates and Liberty X. But again, it's so weird. That day I was dancing Liberty X. And Anne, I have so many stories that the podcast isn't even long enough. 2002, I'm dancing with Liberty X. Don't know who they are. 2003, February, there's an audition for Liberty X. They said massive people going. Oh my God, the first story's crazy.
Again, people said, don't go because we know the choreographer. Priscilla Samuels, she's incredible. She was the woman who created Spice Girls, Waste Life. She's done everybody. Priscilla Samuels was my god. But everybody went and said, "Don't, because she's got her particular dancers." I went there. I was like, "I don't care what you guys saying. I'm just going to go for it." I went for it. It was three dancers got the job. Me, Tony Touche and Princess Laura, Laura Jane. Between, again, everybody. Do you know what I mean? Everybody was there and I got the job.
And I confronted Priscilla, I said, "Why don't you employ commercial, my kind of dancers?" "No, no, it's all lies. It's just because people don't get the job. I love your energy." She said, "I do not like lazy dancers." That's all she said. And she said, "Lazy dancers." And I was there... I was like that, I just came back from jungle. I was like, "I want to get..." And I did the tour. It was incredible. There's so many stories. My point is, I never listened to anybody. I will get the good advice in me. It's like you're peeling something and you take only the good out of it. The negative out.
Yes, I do love myself. I had a negative comment the other day I posted on Facebook, "Me and my husband are enjoying this path." And I'm like, "Oh my God, we enjoy life." Like, "Oh my God, you do love yourself." And I put a comment, I don't normally reply. And I said, "In the words of legendary RuPaul, 'If you cannot love yourself, how the hell you going to love somebody else?'" I always say, "You can love yourself." There's the two things, being arrogant or confident. I'm a confident person. I'm not arrogant. I'm confident. I know who I am. I know what I can do. I know this angle looks great on me. I look pretty. I love myself. There's nothing wrong with that.
When my friends were trying to date someone, they were unhappy. They would start dating and it wasn't working. I was like, "Guys, how can you date someone if you're not happy with yourself, if you don't love yourself." And most of the 99% were like, "Oh frick, you actually right." I was like, "I am right." Because you have to be happy with yourself. That's why I always had things in me. I will do it if it works, oh my God. If it doesn't work, there's [inaudible 00:47:02]-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You have something else.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you so much. There's always something else. I mean, there's so many things like this happening in my life. I have a tattoo saying, "Everything happen for reason." And it really did. The way also, I met you, the way I did Christian Louboutin.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I was about to ask you about that. So by the time we met in 2010, first tell me how did you meet Sojin Lee, who was the founder at the time of Fashionair, who's right now in another startup called TOSHI, who used to be at Net-a-Porter, because she's the one who brought you in and clearly you know each other well.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You're going to die how we met. Again, it's my star over my head. What is going on, is the power, is the energy, right? I was on tour with William Young, we were friends, and one day I was at Rand's House, William Young invited me to go to see a show.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Isn't she friends with him?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Correct. Because [inaudible 00:47:51].
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I forgot.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Because they're all connected. Popeye, all that stuff. So they're friends. Never met this Sojin before. And I met you in 2010, so I'm going back. That was in 2008. So I am going to see Will da, da, watching the show. And then after party we said, "Babe, just come to after party. Can you drive?" I think at the time I was meant to be driving doing Dominic Cooper, Amanda Seyfried and James Corden in my car, in my little Ford Ka to drive to-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh my God, that's hilarious.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And the club that we showed the video for, we were going to KOKO's. So it's like, "Can you just put James Corden next to me?" And I have Dominic Cooper, and then Amanda Seyfried in the back of my car, in a Ford Ka. Ford Ka. I feel like I'm embarrassing, embarrassing of my life. And long story short. And so we at the party and I said, "Sorry." And I met Sojin, "Hi, Sojin." She like, "Hi. We work with Rio Bravo." "Nice to meet you."
Another time, I was already thinking, "I'm going to be 30 in two years. I'm still dancing. I'm not going to do much anymore. I just either going to go hairdressing, do celebrity hair. Or let's see how the life's going to pan out for moi." And I remember, let's say, we said hello and goodbye. She didn't come to KOKO's. I said, "You want to come with me. I've got one more seat." She said, "No, thank you so much." Two years later I get this call, "Hi darling, this is Sojin..." I was like, "Sojin?" [foreign language 00:49:17]. Two years later, I mean, "Oh my God, Sojin," I said, "Yes, of course."
I mean literally this is 2010 November, and I'm kind of still dancing with a retiring moment. We're doing X Factor. That was the X Factor year when One Direction was. And I was assistant choreographer for the show. And I was-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's big.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I still was dancing, but I didn't want to dance. I was just choosing which show should I do, because I'm getting old. And also the 2010 X Factor was the youngest group ever. So I look like their grandpa. So I'm like, "It's time to-"
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's a good reason to stay far in the background.
Arthur Gourounlian:
A hundred percent. Oh my God, Anne, I swear we're dancing, I remember we're doing Kids in America, they were singing the song. And then I remember Simon Cowell said, "No, we need to bring younger blood." Which is true, I look like, all my friends we look like their dads. They even ask us to shave. I'm like, "I haven't shaved for 10 years." I was like, "Oh my God."
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's hilarious.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's just so crazy. And then when Sojin said to me, "Darling, can you come to the office? I have this job for you. I would love to see... You told me you were going to choreograph. I remember you said." She remember I said, "I was going to maybe choreographer or creative director." I'm assisting now. But I never called myself a creative director, choreographer, never. Because I didn't want to step on choreographer's toes.
I'm the kind of person, I'm your dancer. Because now everybody's a choreographer. Everybody's a creative director. They're literally doing everything. At the time, I was just a dancer, assisting and modeling left, right, center. That's all I was. And when she come, I was, again, what I got to lose? "I'm in the Fountain Studios, I will finish. I'm going to come to meet you." So I came to meet in a Fashionair Office. So I arrived. There was three. You were not there.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I wasn't there that day. But I remember the Fashionair Office.
Arthur Gourounlian:
So I went, there were three ladies... And I think they had other choreographers there before me. So me going with my coffee, I just walked in, and I start talking. And I have, it's the first confession, I never said this to anybody. You're probably like, "How the hell did you get the job?" I sat there and they said to me, "This is a job for Christian Louboutin." And I went... He said, "No." I said that to... I went, "Yeah." I was like, "Great." And they said, "He does the shoes." I went, "Oh my God, yeah, that's..." Still oblivious. I'm like, "This is amazing." I was like, "Okay."
He's like, "Well, we're doing the shoes because Christian's going to bring first ever male shoe. It's 2010. It's a brand new thing for him. We want to make him dance, but we want to go tap dance, full out." I mean, "Right. And can I see Christian?" And they show me. And I went, "Do you want him to full on tap dance?" And we have only couple of days. And again, sometimes my poker face is good or not. And at the time, I never said this before, at the time, I was in the middle at the table, and they were four ladies sitting there, and I literally went, "Let's create something," to myself. I said, "Okay, the thing we have to do, we have only three days or two days rehearsals. I doubt we're going to do full on tap dancing. Let's have two girls, black and white do this, do that."
And they knew they were going to film in Paris with Christian. I remember. I was like, "What am I doing? What's happening here?" Literally, I went, "Yes, great. And then also the girls can wear Christian shoe, because I know it's boys, but it would be great." And then we like this, talking, and I think you guys already spoken what you seeing visually. And then I literally was creating what we created in KOKO in my head. In my head.
They're like, "Okay, thank you so much." I left. Two hours later, Sojin called me, "Okay, we're going to start. Thank you so much. This was great." I mean, "You're joking, right?" I didn't ever remember. But thank God, thank God, somebody was pulling the things together. And they went, "This is like, we have the two girls, we can style." And we helped to style everything.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And the girls were so great. Love these girls.
Arthur Gourounlian:
So great. Oh my God, Selena and Luanda, they were absolutely delicious. They looked incredible. And I think Chris called them Pearl and Diamond, Diamond and Pearl, that they still have their shoes. But it's so weird. And I was going back to do the single for X Factor, because X Factor does single once a year they have this X Factor. And I was going assist Paul to do the single. And I went, "I just had a meeting with Christian Louboutin." They're like, "What?" I was, "You know the shoe designer." "Are you freaking kidding me?" "But I don't know if I'm going to get it or not. Let's see." And then when I got the phone call, I mean, oh my God, and this is incredible. And then we start creating it. And then I met you. And I, until this day, I said that to Chris every time I see...
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:54:04]
Arthur Gourounlian:
And I until this day, I said that to Chris. Every time I see her, we talk. I said, "You actually keep my career. You guys. That video I will never forget went viral." I will never forget. It was in press. Hilton website. It was so, it is everywhere. The Kardashians. I'm watching, I met Dan Van Stenberg, she told me when I was living in New York, she told me about the video. I was like, are you kidding me? I was like,
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's amazing.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And I said to, because I was going to back to hairdressing. When that kicked off, it's like all the fashioned people came to me. We want need to do this. We wanted to, oh my God, you that, this Arthur, the creative, the [inaudible 00:54:38]. I was like, and I literally took my hairdressing box and put back in the closet again. It's like I just said-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I mean-
Arthur Gourounlian:
At least you've got it. It's in the closet. You can always reach for it if you need is.
Oh, I didn't even know where it's now, but it was in the closet all the time.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
No, I was so grateful. And you guys were absolutely, I mean when I met you you were delicious. You were so amazing to me. I remember meeting you so house, talking to each other, putting all the brief together. You were guys amazing. You were not big headed, sometimes you could have the boss. Yeah darling, don't do this and that. But you guys, you were so welcoming and I felt so good about it. And I remember Vito came out 2010 end of time before Christmas while it was, and he went and I started doing Berlin Fashion Week. I did Milan, London and people were directing the shows and the art, it was just like, I was like, what's happening to me? It's like, woo. I was loving every single minute. That was my new life starting if you will.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's fascinating to see that it was such a pivotal moment.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Hundred percent.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And sometimes you don't know why you meet people.
Arthur Gourounlian:
True.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But that night when you met [inaudible 00:55:49], it was fated.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I guess the impression I gave it to her is she remembered that, wait a minute, there's so many crazy director choreographers. Why don't you go to them? Do you know what I mean? And why are you calling me? It's so weird how?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I know why. Because she liked you because you made a great impression. If I pick a thread through all of the amazing things that happened over the course of your career ever since the beginning and every time you defied the odds, what I'm feeling is the energy that you put out in the world is so wonderful.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That people almost have no choice but to want to be near you. But people will always remember how you make them feel. And I think that's why you are so memorable. People remember how you made them feel. That gets callbacks, that gets yeses, that gets shows and creative direction. I remember very well walking with Christian who was not feeling massively confident about this.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh I remember.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Just be honest.
Arthur Gourounlian:
He said, you were tough. You made me dance. Well that was my job.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But you were so kind with him. And I think that with kindness you can make people work very hard. And he did really well in the end. And we had such a bowl. I mean you guys were separated at birth. You made me laugh so hard that week. I was like, this is really my job. I have to spend half a day in a studio-
Arthur Gourounlian:
It was so.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
-and watch Christian learn to tap dance. This is brilliant.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I mean we did three days and he said to me, I think he did a quote and so on his website said thanks to Arthur Gourounlian my new best Armenian friend that if I wasn't tough on him in a good way, he said he would've never done this. Because that was the first time the world seen Christian dancing. He never done dancing like that.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Well perhaps a part of him always wanted to dance like that. Who knows, well I mean you'll have to ask him to confirm this, but you've been on a dance floor with him since then. You know that there's probably one point that you both have in common or is it two? Both you have extraordinary energy because he really has very big powerful sorts of energy as well.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And you guys love to dance.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Absolutely.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And I've seen him sometimes looking essentially respectfully like the Duracell rabbit. He keeps on turning on the dance floor and you're like, how can he keep going?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Keep going. Yeah. Yeah. But you see live, we love live, we love energy, we love music.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Hey I love it. I love it. I know that at many parties I was the one who would open the dance floor because he wanted to dance but no one was dancing.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You were like me. You were actually the dancer.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I learned to have no shame as long as I like the music because if I don't like the music I'll walk off.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I love it. I love dancing.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Thankfully he likes a bit of Beyonce so we're fine.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh I love it. Actually, one of the positive thing also, I remember I was getting my visa for America. I was getting in Paris and we met up to his house. We had nice dinner and everything and I said, oh my God. It's like you have the lucky charm. Every time I got my visa, I'm in Paris. I wasn't sure if I'm going to get it or not. And he was there that time, me and Brian went to his house, to have dinner. I was like, it's like you my lucky charm. Every time I see you something good happening so it's weird. It's the energy. I think it's the energy. I think the good, it's like, I don't like, I don't want to say don't like, but I don't want to be around negative people. I want to be happy, especially with jobs now, everything I choose to do, I want to be with people that make me laugh. We're having, I'm a hard worker but I want to also laugh. I don't want to be bitchy or I don't want to backstabbing each other.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, I hear you. I think that it takes a lot of courage and self-awareness to change your life around in order to make room for the better things and-
Arthur Gourounlian:
Correct.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
-you get rid of what doesn't work for you.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Correct.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And listen, I don't want to give a bad rep to negative energy because sometimes you need to have that sort of conflict.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Okay.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And it's part of life. Friction also is one of the things that helps us. Obstacles help us get to another side of who we are.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You have to make mistakes to learn from mistakes. And I love whatever mistakes I've made in my life. I'm learning from my mistakes. You have to, people like, oh, how can you make mistakes? But mistakes are good also, it's like similar what you're saying negative will make you stay positive.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Hey, but look at what happened to you when you were 12 and then what happened when your dad passed away? You went through such difficult, difficult times. Because I'm sure it wasn't just like that punctual one week that was hard. You went through a lot of hardship early on in your life and you choose consistently to overcome difficulties and-
Arthur Gourounlian:
Correct.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
-to do your best and do your hardest. It's very inspiring. It makes me feel, do you know the Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell?
Arthur Gourounlian:
No, but I need to know.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Joseph Campbell is a very famous, I want to say anthropologist but I may be wrong. But he wrote this seminal theory about how the fact that pretty much all of the biggest stories since the dawn of time are follow one model, one arc that he's named the Hero's Journey. And you can look it up online, you can buy the book. It can be a little bit academic sometimes. But it's interesting because for a hero to become himself, he must go through very hard things.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And actually you nailed it there. You're true with what I have in my past. Maybe that's how I am who I am, you're right. And I never actually thought about that. It's actually first time I'm actually listening to someone saying out loud. Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You became a choreographer, you did all this amazing work, and then you landed a job in Ireland on Dancing with the Stars, which is as a judge, which is an incredible job. What's that been like?
Arthur Gourounlian:
That's another thing I would've never, when I say this, believe me, I would've never in million years would've thought I will end up on a massive platform like this. Because funny enough, I was dancing with Emma Bunton back in 2004 for Strictly Come Dancing ever before.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Wow. You were on Strictly?
Arthur Gourounlian:
As for pop stars.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Okay.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I went on strictly with Emma Bunton because I remember when they said, oh there's this new show coming on BBC Strictly Come Dancing. And I remember as a dancer Will said, oh my God, who's going to watch Ballroom? Ballroom is not commercial. Bang, bang, bang. It's not Destiny Child or whatever. But it became so huge and I will never forget I was there with Emma Bunton, I think Cricket Song. We were dancing and I was like, oh my God, this looks incredible. But not think of one day I'm going to be sitting there. And then two years later I was talking to Bruno Turner in Soho House because I was working with Bananarama, they're very good friends. He was like, oh darling is one of the best jobs I got there and there it was like, I would love to have your job.
I mean sitting there and talking about your expertise, you know what you're talking about. And just getting paid. I mean in end day it's a job, we want to make money but also enjoy the momentum. But I haven't never thought that one day, I mean what's happened, the pandemic changed our lives because we were living in LA. My dreams was always going to Los Angeles and I got the visa again, when I said to my husband, I'm going to go and get a visa to move to America, he went, ha ha ha. And I said, no, no, ha, ha, I am going to do it. And I said, yeah, but you have to go through much so much, blah blah blah. And I said, but I will do it. And I remember I was saying earlier, I got in Paris, my visa and we went back to hotel and he quiet, said, oh my God, everything you say you actually, I was like, yes, because I want to do it.
We moved to America, I moved to New York and then LA it was going great, great, great. And Brian did Dancing with the Stars back in 2020 before pandemic started so he was dancing on it. I'm like, well Don, I love you. I'm going to come to meet you and then I'm going to go on holiday in 2020 and then we're going to go back to LA. But we all know things change. And I remember I was in LA, I called Brian, I said, oh my God, what are we going to do? Because I can stay here, we're having the best time. But everybody said, if you're Irish out from LA, because the time is the unknown, we don't know what's happening. And my friends Donal Skehan, who is actually very big chef, he's got his own shows and everything and he was meant to be coming back to shoot a show and said, Arthur, I'm picking the family, taking the house, we are moving because we don't know what could happen. What if the next five years we don't know too much? We don't know.
And I said, you know what? I'm coming. In three days I packed our house, packed everything. Bear in mind, in the middle of pandemic, everything is shut down. You can't even call people. I don't know how I did it. And then I moved in with my friends, Donal and his family, two boys and Sophie, the wife. We stayed there and we came all together to Ireland. And again, it's like another, am I starting all over again? My God, how many countries have lived so many different countries? But every time it's starting from scratch. But this time was different because I moved in with Brian and since we know each other, we met 2002. It's the first time we spent nine months nonstop.
It was the best feeling. I know it's so sad what's happened. It's so horrible. But for us, it was actually good feeling because I was always gone for two, three months or two weeks. He was hosting a TV show there and there or he was hosting on events. We always traveled. But it was this time, first time as husband as family, we stayed in his childhood room, like this mini room with this big bed. We couldn't even move. It was the best feeling. We were watching movies after movies, there's nothing you can do. And then I remember I was like, oh my God, if we're staying in Ireland, what I'm going to do? We always knew we were going to come to Ireland. We always knew. But in 10, 15 years stay in America, we were trying to adopt kids in America.
We wanted kids, we were doing the procedure, all that stuff. Stay there and then come back and settle here and love life. But I would've never predict that in two years after living in America, I'll be actually moving to Ireland. I remember at the time, and I think 2020, it was still in lockdown. I created my own company for clothing because I worked so much in clothes I was like, I love socks so that's another thing I pushed rather-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Ah-ha. I feel like I knew that about you. Did you tell me already? Or just you must have told-
Arthur Gourounlian:
Maybe you've seen on social media it's-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And maybe also, yeah, you must have talked about socks.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I did. I did tell you, I did. Yes. I always love socks and I not your generic sock like bold, crazy socks. And I remember I was like, do you know what? I work so hard on my life, why don't I have something that I can push myself and let's create socks. Wait on and what are worse can happen? And I launched this year, February is been doing so well, thank God it's great. There's other things coming. Again, look down, brought something new. But I wasn't just sitting and rolling my fingers. What am I going to do? Because also my industry was dead. It was nothing. How am I earning money?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Your industry was decimated.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Finito, gone. I wasn't earning money for two years. I didn't make a penny. I was like, what am I doing? But not only me, everybody around me. When I did that, Brian was like, oh my God, are you sure you're doing this? But this is, Brian is very positive, but sometimes we have to push. And when I push him, he's incredible. But me, you don't have to push me. I'm literally going like a ball. Woo, let's go for it. And it's successful. It's really good. There's more things coming. But then I remember when in 2021 went to Kerry with some friends, just having fun. And then I got a phone call and again, life changing momentums. And that was Eugenia, the producer from Dancing with the Stars, hi darling, it's Eugenia Dancing with the Star, blah. I was like, oh great, you want to speak to Brian?
And he said, no, no, we're calling for you. And I went, oh. He said, yeah, basically you're the first call. We auditioning people for a judging position. And I literally stood there because I think we're having to take away fish and chips or something. And I went, whoa, wait, I need to cut out. I was like, what? He said yes, because now you're in Ireland. We would love to for you to audition. Is this something you would consider? I mean this is a job. Where is the hidden camera? Please show me. I went, oh, oh my God, I absolutely. I said, Eugenia, if you actually call me two years ago, maybe I will say no. Because I was in America. It was different momentum but I'm here again, what do I have to lose? Nothing again in my head. I will never get this. Come on a foreigner non-English speaker in on Irish TV, prime TV.
No way. But me being me, I would like absolutely. So she said, can you send me some tapes and then we'll take it from there. I had to self tape, hello, my name is whatever you do. And I sent the tapes. I didn't hear anything for a month and half. I was like, okay, I didn't go through it's fine. And then I remember September, 2021, they call me this saying hi from everybody we cut down, can we have screen tests with you? And I went, what? I was like, what this is? This is hysterical. I was like, yeah. I was like, of course when? I'm there. And again, I'm actually laughing inside because it's a one in 1,000,001, you can't plan this. Again, me I was like, let's just go have fun. Whatever it is, it is. I went there and obviously I recognize some of the dancers.
They were auditioning everybody. I'm waiting in a hotel lobby, they call me and I walked in the room and you have Lauren Barrow, who's a queen of ballroom. She's one of the judges. She's incredible. I mean she's a legend. And then obviously she's in the middle. And then there's another boy on her left who's auditioning and I'm sitting this right side. I sat there, they told me what to do. Darren, who's the choreographer, creative director, he was presenting like the presenter pretending. And I just have to watch a video. And I just free style as you do, you watch a video. And I stood, I stood at, stood, sat there, and I went, okay. In my head, I mean either this is going to be yes or I'm just going to be completely embarrassing myself, making fool of myself. I just went for it.
Just being myself, had fun. They swapped us, had fun, I had good time. They were give me feedback. I'm just enjoying myself. Literally enjoying myself. Left. Thank you so much everybody. Bye, again called Brian I said I auditioned, but listen. Listen. Come on. Come on.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Come on. What are the chances? A month later, October. Phone call, privately Eugenia. Hi Arthur. Congratulations. You got the job. I literally dropped. I went, oh.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's so amazing.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And it was just the biggest cherry on the cake for me, for as a career for crazy director choreographer to get that phone call to do it. And I will never forget, 9th of January, 2022, I sat in that chair and when Jennifer Zamparelli, the host said, how does it feel? And at that moment, I feel like it was all blur. It's all literally still owns. When you watch a movie, everything stopped.
And I said, either you go crazy, have fun, or you just die and your car crash and you finito. I went the opposite. I went crazy, loving life, enjoying myself. One minute you're working with Rihanna, Beyonce and you're here in the studio. That's why she was saying one minute you're working with those people and now you're here and you're judge. How does it feel? And it's the best feeling in the world, best feeling in the world. And I'm back doing second season. I mean, for me, second season, it's six seasons so when they call me, I was doing-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's great.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I was doing one, I was in my head. Our job is, again, I was only doing one.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I'm so glad because I must tell you, I looked online yesterday quite a bit and I couldn't see confirmation. And there was not that much information there.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Well, it's exclusive, I'm doing it.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yay.
Arthur Gourounlian:
We have the shoot. And I'm... it's a big thing because I'm the first ever foreigner who is on primetime Irish television.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Wow, congratulations.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Live. Yeah, that never happened.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Congratulations.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you so much. For them to take a risk on me, it's a huge risk.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I mean, would you take that risk? It's a huge-
Arthur Gourounlian:
I would, I would make bold.
You see, I love bald people. Yes.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That also, again, I think it comes down to energy because I think that the difficulty that TV must have against all the streaming services is that they need to offer something in terms of entertainment that goes beyond what's being offered, right?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And I think that's where there's such tremendous possibility within these kinds of competitions because there's so much talent, there's so much emotion.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Correct.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And there's so much artistry that comes through and it's hard. Right?
Arthur Gourounlian:
So beautifully put Anne. Seriously, that is, no, you're right.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I think that's why this is one of the things that remains a real value for TV that cannot really be replicated.
Arthur Gourounlian:
True, true.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I wanted to talk about this before talking about the fact that you are half of a power celebrity power couple.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Not all of our listeners will know that you are married to a very famous man.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Very, very.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I remember I watched Big Brother.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Did you? Oh my God.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I did. I need to tell you that I was brand new in the UK. And even though I did speak English, I realized very early on that I would have difficulties in feeling comfortable meeting new people and stuff if I had no idea about the culture. And it's true that I had a very Americanized culture around music and TV and movies. I thought, all right, there's this new thing that's starting, it's called Big Brother. It's sounds daffed, but I'll watch it anyway. And so I watched those two. After that, I let it go. I never watched Coronation Street, but I watched some of the other TV shows. It's EastEnders.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Just getting through the culture.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I want be able to hold a conversation with people anywhere.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And you are right, without social, remember, there's no social media, nothing. And you're right, you want to go-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But also I wanted a little bit of depth, right? You don't want to stay at that surface level. I don't remember everything, but I do remember that Brian was incredibly hilarious, good looking, charismatic. And until I listened to that other interview of you and him on that really great podcast called Mamamia, I think.
Arthur Gourounlian:
That's it.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I had forgotten he was a flight attendant on Ryan Air.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You are right.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Anyways, can you please tell me how did you meet?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God. Well you see, funny enough, I never watched Big Brother. When I arrived to UK it was 2000.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Hilarious.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Just so he was already there. But I never, no, I never watched it. But we have this debate when we met, and I'm always right, we met 27th of December, 2002. Because he's like, no, it's 28. I was like, no, it was 27th going to midnight, which was 28. We have all visitors this debate, but because he was hosting a show called SM TV at the time, and normally every Saturday he's working live, but because he was after Christmas, they prerecorded already so for New Year they can relax. That Saturday, he wasn't working, Saturday 28th so I met him Friday 27th. And I remember there was a big gay club, very famous called Shadow Lounge, which was not far from Old Compton Street.
And then I, it's weird. Again, we're going back to how I think in life, how I stay positive and how I push myself. I was actually dating someone, but just dating, I mean I was just seeing someone and we went out and that night I said, listen, it's not going to go anywhere. Thank you so much. I just arrived here. I just want to enjoy. Bye-bye. And the guy said, are you sure, but I like you. I was like, thank you so much. But I think it's Finito so he left. Me being me I was going to go home. I was literally going to go home, jumble my night bus and go home. But then I was turning away and then Deborah Cox absolutely not. It was a huge song, came on.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God. I was like, that song was absolutely incredible. Simon, do you know what? Turn around. Go on the dance floor. Me being, again, I'm not shy. I went, I started dancing on my own and I started Boogie on my own a little bit before I go home. And I will never forget again that slow motion moment. I see this guy sipping on his Smirnoff Ice with a straw and staring at me. I was like, why is he staring at me, okay. I was like, he was very cute. He was so my type he had blue eyes, this like chisel boy. And I was like, oh my God, he's cute. And he came to me and when he came, he couldn't speak English. He start chatting me up and I went [foreign language 01:17:22]. And he left. [inaudible 01:17:31], Brian.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh wow.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And he went to his friend, another time I was dancing his best friend's brother, sexy Spencer. I was like, oh my God, he's so hot. He was like massively beautiful. Only now I know his best friend Simon said, he said it's okay he doesn't speak English, go just chat it to him. He came back and we started chatting and I said, I'm a dancer. He was like, yeah, of course you are dancer. And then we just kept it like this. But everybody was staring at him. Everybody was like, try to flirt. I was like, either you are, sorry for my language, S-L-U-T or something I'm missing here. Why is everybody trying to rob you, your attention? And then we kiss and then that's it. Nothing happened. We dated for a week without me knowing again, who he is, I don't know his second name.
Dating, I'm in rehearsal because I'm performing on CD:UK week after for Zoe Burkett]. And I still don't know what's going on, telling my friends, oh my, I'm busy seeing this guy. He's very cute. I don't know where it's going to go. Let's just go with the flow. Next Saturday, January 2003, I'm doing a CD:UK. I'm in a canteen in ITV studios. Oh, I see, I see. It's weird. Weird. I see Brian and Tess Daly walking past the canteen like this.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
No way.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I went, Lisa, oh my god, that's Brian and that bitch, sorry for my language ignored me. I went, what? I mean-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I love it.
Arthur Gourounlian:
This is the guy I've been dating the whole week. And she said Brian Dowling, I mean I don't know the second name, but it's Brian. I know it's Brian. I don't know Dowling, look so short they're calling us to live CD:UK. I'm going to treat me like a lady is the song I will never forget. I am dancing full out while far in distance I see Tess and Brian keep gossiping like two little girls. And obviously they were talking about me. I don't know what either they were saying. Tess was saying, oh, his cute, blah, blah, blah and I mean. Oh my God, you're the guy. But then after that it's like, why do you not tell me? He thought I'm going to be like, oh my God, you're so famous. Oh my God, I love famous. Oh, I don't care about famous people. I do not care. And that's how we met. And obviously fell in love. But we were on and off for four years. We were literally, we had the gap because thing is, when I say he was so famous at the time, there was no social media, nothing on.
And he was so loved. He was doing his MTV and he broke a record.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I remember everyone knew him.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Everybody. And he's the first ever openly gay TV presenter. That's never happened in history. Yeah, he won a BAFTA for it. I mean, Brian's done a lot for, he's been 22 years, he's been in the industry. He's done incredibly well. But again, it doesn't affect me. Famous or not so he doesn't. But because he was so famous and he was young, there was some arrogant in it. He won't kill me because he knows that. And I mean, wait a minute, you're not treating me right then Goodbye. We're on and off, on and over. And I'm done. Thank you so much so we broke up for five years. And then obviously the sparkle, we were single. And again, 2011 we went for dinner and I went, oh, hello, hello. How you doing? And he went and then we start dating again. But we kept it quiet because obviously people knew our stories now we didn't want to say, oh, we're back together.
For three months we dated and then we all, she said, we're back together. And the friends went, are you sure? Because you've been there. And I remember we're back together.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, the friends. Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah, all the friends. Are you sure? We a hundred percent sure. But it was the best thing because I think we had to do our stuff because after that, obviously when I met him...
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:21:04]
Arthur Gourounlian:
I think we had to do our stuff because Astav, obviously, when I met him I was just new in UK. My career kicked off and I didn't want to have, not baggage, but someone like, "Oh, you're getting this job because you're dating someone." No. Can I officially say he never bought me a job? All the things I have, it's thanks to me, not Brian. It's weird.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That wouldn't have even crossed my mind.
Arthur Gourounlian:
But some people would. We were not even going on red carpets, because I didn't care. He was getting invites left, right. I said, "I do not care." I just love the guy because he's so funny, and we never have a dull moment in this household. It's absolutely bonkers. I love it. And when we got back together, he said-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, I believe you.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It literally is.
He said to me, "This is it. Either we getting..." Because he was waiting for me to propose. "Either we get married, or we can't carry on." I went, "Oh, well, give me time. My God, we just got back together."
No, it was perfect. We got engaged 2014. Actually, I remember, I saw James's wedding. We were talking to Holon Moray and Holon was with James. They were married and everything, and they were... I was like, "Hold on, stop it", because he was pushing Brian like...
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh.
Arthur Gourounlian:
... for me to push to ask him, I was like, hold on. No, no, not yet. Not yet. I was like, "Oh my God." Because Brian wanted to get married, but I want to have family. Kids. I was more kids than marriage. But then I think Sochi was June or something. And then in July we got engaged on holiday. So I asked him to get married.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Aw.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And then a year later, we got married in 2015. Which was also another big thing because the referendum, 2015, in Ireland went. The first referendum in the world. And it passed. But people thought we did that because of that. I was like, "No guys, we got engaged 2014. It took a year to organize the wedding. We're not going to click our fingers. It was just happened that it happened the same year."
So the wedding was everywhere. I remember living in New York, people knew about the wedding, living in New York-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, really?
Arthur Gourounlian:
They knew because, obviously, gay world are so small.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Why don't you do a big thing? It's a huge thing. It went everywhere. So people knew. In two hours, I remember that picture went everywhere. 2015. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I mean, it's also probably because you were both very good looking in that picture.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God, stop it!
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You were very good looking and you looked very, very happy. You looked-
Arthur Gourounlian:
I'm so happy.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
... beautifully happy.
Arthur Gourounlian:
We had three amazing days. Oh, it was absolutely magical.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's amazing.
I really wanted to ask you about is, you hinted it already, so you moved to LA and while you were established in the US, you thought you were going to stay longer. And-
Arthur Gourounlian:
Right.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
... you wanted to start a family. And actually, I heard Brian explain that he took your name, as well?
Arthur Gourounlian:
That's right.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That both parents have the same last name, which is important when you have a child.
Arthur Gourounlian:
That's right. Through surrogacy or other things like that.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Exactly. And so you were in the middle of that. First, would you tell me a little bit about what it's been like, your journey for you guys to get a family?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah. When we got married, I remember I always want a family. I even said to Brian, "I'd rather have kids than getting married." Because I'd never really had on my cards, the marriage wasn't there. But I always want to have kids. But also, not even surrogacy, but adoption. Because me being a refugee asylum seeker, I wanted to help other kids, not even refugee or just help kids in general.
So when we were in LA, we started procedure, we went to see agencies, we had meetings after meetings, it was going so well. But then with our luck, pandemic happened, so everything stopped. We moved here and we start the procedure in pandemic. Phone calls, things like that.
It's so hard to adopt in Ireland. First of all, it's good there's not many kids. That's amazing. But also when we say we're gay, it's already taboo, kind of.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Right.
Arthur Gourounlian:
So really like, "Ah, yeah." And also we're getting older, so if there are kids, they're going to go to, I'm 42, Brian's 44, the kids going to go to someone who's in their thirties. So it was very down. It's like somebody's beating you down. Every time we open a door, the door is literally shut into your face. It was such a heavy momentum for Brian and I. We'd been working on this since, only working sounds so businessy. But we want to have family since we got married, because that was our next chapter in our lives. But obviously didn't work, didn't work, didn't work. And then we just end up saying, okay. I was kind of against it because again, I couldn't justify to spend so much money to the surrogacy. It's expensive. If you can't afford surrogacy, it's sad, so many families can't have kids. So even though they want it, but they can't afford the money. And I admit, that was really upsetting me.
But obviously now the adoption is very late for us, and surrogacy was the next thing. But then miracle happened when, because people saying, "Oh my god, Brian's got so many sisters. Surely somebody will help you." You always joke, "Yeah, oh my God, would you do it? Would you do it?" And all of them they say, "Listen, I would've done it. But I've already three kids, one kid. My pregnancy was very hard on me. I wouldn't do it."
But one person who literally saved us, she gave me the most, oh my God, I can't even describe. I always say we'll never be able to repay her back because what she done for us...
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's just selfless. Is that the word, self?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
No string attached. I remember first time she approached us, we were like, "Oh my God, stop it. Yeah, whatever." Joking. And then I think second time she approached, I was like, "Oh my God, stop it." Joking again. You don't think she's... It's a big thing. You're not just going to say, "Oh, I'm going to do it for you."
And then what's happened, we were literally thinking and saying to each other, "We are going to go with Aoife." But at the same time, Brian went on a walk, came back and that was kind of the momentum's there. We are actually doing and it's going to happen. It's actually going to happen. And from there, that was January 2021, and that's all it started getting all together. I'm getting emotional. It all started together and we started the procedure and now here we are.
I mean, it was up and down. It was a rollercoaster of journey, especially in Ireland, because there's no legislation on it, there's no laws, surrogacy. So we don't know where you're going. It's been a massive, massive thing.
But there are things changing here, which is amazing. And everybody should be able to do surrogacy. You're helping families so much.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You have no idea. And people say, "But why do you want to have kids?" That was my purpose. I always wanted family. Always, always my dream to help someone, or I always want to have family. I want to keep that legacy going. The Darling Brunan legacy. I want that to be going. Why not?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
And we have the most incredible little bubba Blake Marie Rose. She's just our life. What was I doing? I was like Thursday, 5:00PM, I don't remember. She literally her changed our lives.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Arthur Gourounlian:
We've been doing a documentary. The reason we did a documentary, again, people will always have opinions, but again, you're just doing it. And we wanted to show how it is. It's not that easy. Because we are happy, we're positive, but because we are happy and positive. Do you know what I mean? It's not difficult, not difficult.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course. Yeah. I think it's because we tend to show... It's like a photo album, right?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Whether it's video or photo, you don't put the really bad stuff in the photo album.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yes. Actually, great. Yeah. You describe that amazingly. Brian was saying that. Brian was saying, "Listen, you see our Instagram, it's only 15 seconds, one minute. It's great." But I mean, I'm always literally happy. I don't believe me or not, I'm always there. But they're like the bad things when they don't work, they didn't happen. The documentary specify everything, and we won't share that journey with us. And I said, "If I help 1, 2, 3, 4 families with that documentary, my job is done. Because I want them, if they want to go through this journey, go for it."
And since we actually came out and say that Aoife's carrying our baby, the amount of messages we have, sisters saying, "Oh my God, I'm going to do for my sister, I'm going for my brother." There's some family starting doing it.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, that's beautiful.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Because they got inspired by Aoife's story. Because people didn't realize... I mean, don't get me wrong, I was very clueless about surrogacy that a family member can carry. And then you educate yourself, you actually learning things. And once you educate yourself, you know Aoife's got nothing to do, she's not the mother, nothing. She's a surrogate. We have an egg and we have the sperm, da da da, embryo, and that's it. So her blood is not even the same blood. Do you know what I mean? So people educate themselves.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course. So, I've been educating myself, too.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah, yeah. Love it!
Anne V Muhlethaler:
[inaudible 01:29:54]
But there is something very interesting about the environment in which the child is cooked, if you wish.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And there are some parts of science that now can explain a lot more how the body, the mother, the carrier, how her state of mind, her general wellbeing in life, and everything else she puts in her body, how much that also does shape the child.
Arthur Gourounlian:
100% percent.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And it's fascinating, because I first heard about how much the environment makes us who we are. And I read an amazing book called Mindful of Race by a famous meditation teacher called Ruth King. And it's not until I had a conversation with a fertility doctor that I then understood that this applies in way more areas than we can understand.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So having a loving family member being the carrier of your child must have-
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's helped.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
... a huge positive impact on the baby as well.
Arthur Gourounlian:
So true. I mean, she's the aunt.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Arthur Gourounlian:
She sees the baby every day. She loves it. And also, she's my superhero. Because the thing is, she's so strong in her mind, she knows it's not her child. Here in Ireland when we go through procedure, going to hospitals, meetings, everything, they keep referring to her, talking to her. She's like, "I'm not the mother, don't talk to me. These are the dads, you have to talk to them." We respect her so much for it. And the thing is, we're still learning things every day. And I think at the end of my life, I'm going to still learning something about surrogacy, about human body. And I can't even, there's no words to describe the feeling. And Aoife's been so strong, Aoife's been definitely so strong. I'm losing my words now, because it's...
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, but that's wonderful.
Listen, so you've been a great source of joy in my life, and Blake has been a great source of in my life, I must say. And she's so cute. And seeing you and Brian being dads is absolutely wonderful. I've heard the two of you on another podcast explain who's lenient, who's a little bit more serious as a dad. But just, clearly, there's so much love going on in that household. That's going to be a very happy baby.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh, the baby's so happy. I mean, she loves the camera already. And we'll be laughing. I mean-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course she does.
Arthur Gourounlian:
... how do you see what we are going... Exactly. Of course she does.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Actually, I really wanted to plug this thing. So I was looking at your YouTube yesterday and one of the Instagram live that you must have done. No, it was not a live. It was your blooper video.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Okay. Oh my god. Yeah. One time.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's one of my favorites. Clearly, it's one of the top watched videos on your YouTube. And this is just you and Brian in front of the camera-
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
... touching up your hair.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my... Listen, how many times did I touch my hair today? Seriously.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I loved it. Loved it. All right, you need to remind me if one day I feel sad or down, I need to just watch that again and giggle.
Arthur Gourounlian:
He hates when I touch my, he's like, "Oh my god." He hates when I-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, he doesn't- No, I love your hair.
Arthur Gourounlian:
See, do you know what? Can I just say something? It's a revelation. I feel like girls love men with long hair, but I feel like gays don't love too much. I think men love men with short hair, but the girls, they love long hair.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
No, I don't love long hair. I love your hair.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yay.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I can't speak to other men's hair, but yours is fantastic. And you wear it well.
Arthur Gourounlian:
It's very voluminous. Thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It's very voluminous indeed. And maybe I have a bit of hair envy, let's put it this way.
Arthur Gourounlian:
We can share on Sharing is Caring.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, exactly. So we've already talked for quite a bit of time. I'm about to go to my closing questions.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Okay.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Is there anything else that you would like to share before I give you my quick fire round?
Arthur Gourounlian:
No. My new chapter starting, it's with our baby and there's new things coming. Again, I feel like I'm changing career now. There's a few other new things happening. Stay tuned. It's coming. So that's very exciting. And obviously, I'm still creative and choreographer, but I feel like I'm changing as a human. Like I always said, from 20 to 30, I was dancer, assistant model, actor, whatever it was, 30 to 40 hours creative choreographer. Now 40 to 50, I feel like there's a new era for the Dowling-Gourounlian household. And I'm actually so looking forward to it. I love challenges. Nothing affects me. I love challenges. And I'm taking every challenge I can have.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
See, you're the hero on the journey. That's what I thought.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you, [inaudible 01:34:30].
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So as you know, the podcast is at the crossroads between business and mindfulness.
Arthur Gourounlian:
That's right.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So one of the things that I'd love to hear from you is, obviously you've been like everyone else, going through a lot of ups and downs in the last few years and a lot of uncertainty. What is your go-to? What helps keep you sane or grounded? Whether it's a physical practice, spiritual, mental.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God, that's an amazing question. I'm not going to lie to you. Do you know what I love doing? People watching. And I think, going back to the beginning of podcast, the way how I start dancing. I remember being on a podium and watching 5,000 people dancing and eating Doritos were so different. I feel like I'm sucking up all their energy, good or bad. I love people watching and it's colony. I just, I'm a ... Is voyeur would you say the words but no, voyeur] is different, right?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. voyeur would be hidden.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I'm literally here in your face. I love it. I think it's calming. It's good. But also at the same time, it's such an incredible question. I don't really have anything. I wake up in the morning, I take day by day. I take my life day by day. I don't plan many things.
Brian will plan the whole year. I will plan day by day. He will. We have our babies christening soon. He will have everything ready. But I don't even have my suit, what I'm wearing. Because I live day by day because I want to enjoy today. I really want to enjoy today. So, oh my God.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I think maybe that's an interesting thing to leave you with. Grounding principle is to live day by day.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah, I am. I remember dating people when I say, they're like, oh, what do you do next? I was like, "Guys, I don't know. I want to live by day. I don't know if what's going to happen to me." I think also my dad changed me a lot, I think because he has so many not memory, things to do.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Plans.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Plans, plans.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
He had so many things he wanted to do.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Never done them. Never. Never done them. He worked his bum off. He never done them. He wants to see Eiffel Tower. I've seen Eiffel Tower about a million times. Every time I go there I don't pray, but I do little thing for him. It's for my dad. Every time I'm there it's for my dad.
So that's why I feel like I live day by day. I don't say tomorrow I'm doing... Of course, naturally, you will do something. But yeah, people watching. That's my go to, really. I bet it's an answer that I don't think anybody will ever say. But yeah, I don't meditate, I tell you, because I'm so hype. You'll never have me in one place. I'm like a Tasmanian devil. I love watching shows, but that's not really my thing. I just would literally go walk and look people all I going to coffee shop, love watching people. That's my-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's beautiful. But I think that's what's lovely. We don't all need the same thing, right? That's why I like to ask everyone the same question, because I get that.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I love that, no.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And sometimes we will find someone who's perhaps going to mirror or inspire us to try something and realize that this is something that we can hang onto. So I guess for you to enjoy the people watching and that's why there's a mindful element to it. You're present, you're actually looking at these people. You're not just zooming out in the distance, right?
Arthur Gourounlian:
I love the way you put that. Yeah. Well, I'm stealing that, the way you just described.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
100% percent. Steal it away.
Now, what is a favorite word that you would potentially, not saying that you should, tattoo on yourself?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Favorite word. Well, actually I am going to tattoo that. Funny you say that. I always say, "Let's do this." It's not a word, but...
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Okay, great. Let's do this.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Let's do this. Oh my god. I'm like a freak. I don't even realize I say that. I will say, "Let's do this," after each sentence. I don't think I've said it in a podcast yet, because I'm having a conversation. But if I do stories or I do like, let's do this. Okay, let's do this. That's my energy. Let's do this.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's the choreographer or the dancer I feel like, or the performer emerging.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You're right. Exactly. It's like, "Come on, let's do this." That's my go-to word with a lightning bulb always in the end. I don't know why.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Amazing.
Arthur Gourounlian:
That's my word. Which I'm actually, funny enough, I'm going to do a tattoo. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I can't wait to see it. What does connection mean to you?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Everything. Oh my God, everything. You may not mean as it connect with people, connect with... I mean, it's sad if you can't connect with people. Because each person, different individual and each person brings something new to me. And I need to connect. It makes me feel warm. It makes me feel amazing when I connected with people.
Sometimes I will sit in a hotel lobby when I'm working, randomly start chatting to someone and you say like, "Oh my God, we've been chatting for hours." We're just chatting about life. And I'm a chatter, as you can notice. I'm a chatter and Brian is a chatter. So we always talk, talk, talk. And connection is everything. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Thank you so much.
Now, this one is very hard. What song best represents you?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God. Oh my gosh. She's a Maniac. Maybe, maybe. I'm a maniac. I'm like...
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, I love that. Just so you know, I've put together a playlist of all of the answers of my guests on that question.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God. I love...
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I'm going to send it to you. It's very eclectic.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Please do. Please. Oh, I think, yeah, like, go there. Give me that war on me.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, yeah. That's a great song.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I'm all over the places. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
What is this sweetest thing that's ever happened to you?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my God. Sweetest thing. In which way?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Whatever comes to mind.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my god. Whatever comes to mind. Do you know what? The sweetest thing. It's my daughter's first smile.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, that's so good.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Actually, Blake, the time she smiled for the first time, because they get [inaudible 01:40:56], that was the most magical moment. Yeah. And I could eat her. She's so sweet. I will literally eat her. That's the one.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
What is a secret superpower that you have? Secret superpower.
Arthur Gourounlian:
I was going to say positivity, but everybody knows. It's not secret anymore.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's why I was like...
Arthur Gourounlian:
Actually, I love that. Stop. I'll tell you why. Not many people love yourself. That's my secret power. I love myself in a good way. Not, again, arrogant or ignorant way. I love myself. Me? I have to be happy. I mean, not many people know that. I think that was the first message when I put it there. Oh my God. But they said, "Oh, you love yourself." And I said, actually find out. You're saying, I do love myself. In a good way. Because you have to be happy with yourself before you carry on in your life. You have to be happy with yourself.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That's a great superpower.
Imagining that you can step forward into the future version of yourself. So future Arthur. What do you think future Arthur needs to tell current Arthur in terms of an important piece of advice?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh, I know that. Stop screaming when you talk. Be a little bit calm. Maybe stop laughing too loud. But then, it's part of me. I think that's the only thing I will say. But I am loud. I am very loud.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I appreciate that.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I'm not the quietest person, so.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Yeah, I wouldn't change it. I'm just going to say maybe sometimes be a little bit quieter or don't. But again, that's me. That's Arthur. I feel like if future Arthur says to Arthur now, it won't be me anymore.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Well, there's a debate to happen between future Arthur and current Arthur.
My last question, what brings you happiness?
Arthur Gourounlian:
Family. No doubt. I don't have big family since I came out. My friends are my family. So family and friends are everything to me. Because you know what? You can strip every glitter, every fabulous hotel, travels, everything. In the end of the day, you end up same place you started. Because no matter what I've done in my life, no matter who I perform from, no matter who I met, where are they now? They carry on their lives. The buildings are gone. This is there. But family and friends, they're going to be there, and you have to keep them near and dear. That's what I say. Everything to you. Because you can just have fish and chips on a Saturday night around the table. Just have fun. That's the most amazing feeling ever. That's it. Material things come and go. But family... Yeah. Family and friends.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Arthur.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Oh my god. Merci for having me. Thank you so much.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It was such a joy to talk to you. I've used the word joy a bunch of times whilst referring to you in the last two hours. This is not my go-to word. It clearly shows, or let's say speaks to the feeling that I've got when I'm around you.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Merci beaucoup. It's been a pleasure.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Thank you. I will put all of the links to your website, your Instagram.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Perfect.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
For everyone who wants to come and check you out.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And I'm going to send you so much love to you and Brian and baby Blake, and-
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you so much.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
... all your friends and family. And I hope that it won't be too long until we see each other again.
Arthur Gourounlian:
100%. You have to come to visit us in Ireland. Please do.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yay.
Arthur Gourounlian:
You are-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Excuse.
Arthur Gourounlian:
We're Irish waiting. I feel like Irish now. We're waiting for you. You have to come.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I will, I will, will.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Merci, je t'aime, je t'aime, merci! Mwah!
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Have the most beautiful day.
Arthur Gourounlian:
Thank you. You too. Bye.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice. If you'd like to connect, you can get in touch with me @annav on Twitter, Anne Muhlethaler on LinkedIn, or on Instagram @_outoftheclouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness.
You can also find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on my website, annevmuhlethaler.com. If you don't know how to spell it, it's also going to be in the show notes.
If you would like to get regular news directly delivered to your inbox, I invite you to sign up to my monthly newsletter.
So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. And until then, be well, be safe, and take care.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:46:19]