In this episode of Out of the Clouds, host Anne Muhlethaler interviews Dina Fierro, creative thinker and seasoned omni-channel marketer with expertise spanning fashion, beauty and luxury. Dina is a specialist in content strategy, cross-platform storytelling and reshaping consumer engagement.
Dina's career has spanned fashion, beauty and luxury, including leadership positions both agency and brand-side, including a few years where she worked with Anne at Christian Louboutin. In her most recent role at Shiseido Americas, she led the organisation's digital innovation group, partnering with portfolio brands including NARS, Shiseido, Clé de Peau Beauté and Drunk Elephant to create highly engaging consumer experiences anchored in emerging technology.
Anne and Dina explore Dina's fascinating journey from her early aspirations in journalism to becoming a pioneering voice in the digital marketing landscape. Dina shares her path from launching one of the early fashion and beauty blogs in 2006, Eye for Style, to spearheading groundbreaking digital initiatives for prestigious brands. The pair discuss Dina's work creating virtual ambassadors for Nars, immersive retail experiences, and exciting gaming integrations that are pushing the boundaries of how brands in the beauty or luxury space connect with their customers.
The conversation delves into the evolution of Web3, AI, and immersive technologies (with Dina offering some explanation for the meaning of the terms), examining how these tools are transforming brand storytelling. They explore the broadcast-to-dialogue shift - how brands in Web3 are moving away from one-way communication toward more interactive relationships with their audiences. Dina explains her vision for a more integrated approach to experiential marketing and how technology can enhance rather than replace physical experiences.
Anne and Dina exchange thoughts on their favorite platforms in 2025, discussing platforms that really reinforce the dialogue between brands and consumers. They share insights on Substack, Reddit, and the untapped potential of audio, while expressing their mixed feelings about Meta and TikTok. The conversation also touches on the hazards of the subscription economy and makes a case for why more brands should embrace audio for deeper connection with their audiences.
Throughout the discussion, Dina reveals her thoughtful approach to both personal and professional growth, touching on resilience, the importance of human connection in an increasingly digital world, and finding balance between control and vulnerability.
A thought-provoking conversation that bridges the past, present, and future of digital marketing while offering valuable insights for anyone interested in the intersection of technology, creativity, and brand building.
Happy listening!
Selected Links from Episode
You can connect with Dina:
Dina's Substack: Yet Another Substack
Other links:
Daydream - AI-powered luxury shopping experience
Xiidra - Multisensory VR experiences
ZEPETO - Immersive metaverse-style app popular in Asia
Unreal Engine - Platform within Epic Games for photorealistic environments
Dimension Studio - London-based studio specializing in Unreal Engine development
Patty Wilson - Renowned stylist who styles NARS campaigns
Vogue Business - Business publication featuring Dina's work with virtual ambassadors
Roblox - User-generated platform where NARS launched Color Quest
Kiki World - Co-creation platform disrupting the beauty industry
DS & Durga - Niche perfume house with Spotify playlists including commissioned music
Barilla Pasta Timer Playlists - Curated music for pasta cooking times
Substack - Newsletter platform Dina uses for her publication
Leandra Medine (Man Repeller) - Fashion writer and former blogger Dina follows
Amy O'Dell - Former Editor-in-Chief of The Cut with original reporting on Substack
Marie Claire - Publication with sophisticated content strategies beyond print
Bloomberg on Telegram - Example of legacy media embracing alternative channels
Meta Ray-Ban Smart Glasses - Wearable technology Dina finds compelling
Tom Petty - "I Won't Back Down" - Song that represents Dina
Michael Pollan - "The Omnivore's Dilemma" - Book that changed Dina's relationship with food
Eric Ripert - Chef whose culinary memoir Dina enjoys
Gabrielle Hamilton - Chef and author Dina mentioned for her culinary writing
00:04
Hi, hello, bonjour and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I'm your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Hello, hello. So I'm just back from a few days in New York City where I had the pleasure of actually seeing my guest in person, but we did do the interview beforehand. It was such a pleasure to be back in New York City.
00:36
I actually have not traveled to New York since 2019, which feels crazy, because I used to be there at least once or twice a year. You know, since I've been a consultant, a coach and podcaster, and before that, I was in New York at least three or four times a year. If you've not been there recently, don't worry, the city hasn't changed too much. I was staying on the Lower East Side and I had the best time. I did take a little bit of time off, but I also worked too much, so I did not enjoy the city enough, and so I want to go back already. Anyways, that's what New York does to me. So my guest for this week is an expert, and I have the pleasure of saying that we worked together for a number of years. Dina Fierro describes herself as a creative thinker and a seasoned omni-channel marketer with a deep experience in digital and emerging channels. So you'll understand that she's a digital marketing innovator with years of experience spanning fashion, beauty and technology.
01:49
Over the course of our conversation, I explore Dina's fascinating journey, from her early aspiration in journalism to becoming a pioneering voice in the digital marketing landscape. So we talk about her early days of the fashion and beauty blogs to spearheading groundbreaking digital initiatives Very early on. We discuss her work creating virtual brand ambassadors, immersive retail experiences and gaming integrations that have pushed the boundaries of how luxury brands connect with their customers. We go into the evolution of Web3. Of course, we touch on AI and other immersive technologies, including VR, and Dina offers her perspective on how these tools are transforming brand storytelling and engagement between consumers and communities.
02:53
Dina also tells me about her favorite platforms in 2025, with interesting insights on substack, reddit and the untapped potential of audio. We air our mixed feelings about meta for me and TikTok for her. We talk about the hazards of the subscription economy and make a case for why brands could embrace audio for deeper connection with their audience. Throughout our discussion, Dina reveals her thoughtful approach to both personal and professional growth, touching on resilience, the importance of human connection in our increasingly digital world and finding balance between control and vulnerability. Without further ado, I give you my wide ranging conversation with the wonderful Dina Fierro. Enjoy, dina, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Out of the Clouds.
03:51
Thank you for having me Anne, it's a real pleasure.
03:54
Yeah, it's so nice to see your face.
03:56
Nice to see yours as well. It's been a while.
03:59
Yes, I know, but I am coming to New York soon, so hopefully I will see you there.
04:03
I will look forward to it.
04:04
I am coming to New York soon, so hopefully I will see you there. I will look forward to it. So I'd love to start by asking you the question that I've been asking my guests for the past year or so, which is to ask for you to tell us your story. And the reason why I like to start there is we tend to default to what we do in life and only talking about work, and I think that we are more than that and who we are outside of work also influences us to a great extent, and I also kind of like to get a sense of what my guests were like when they were kids, what they wanted to be when they grew up. So that's all right with you. Would you tell me your story wanted to be when they grew up?
04:45
So that's all right with you. Would you tell me your story? Yeah, of course you know. So I will say that growing up, my home life was actually quite complex.
04:52
So I was raised by a single mother alongside my sister, who's actually several years older than me. She's almost a decade older and I think, in part because of that generational divide between myself and my sister, I often had to navigate things on my own. I had to learn to be independent when I was very young. Candidly, my sister struggled with drug use, starting in her teens, and that environment also really required me to become quite self-sufficient early on, because so much of my mother's attention went to my sister. I will say. In many ways and this is sort of the positive side of that growing up in that environment really fueled my curiosity and also my drive. So I ultimately became incredibly resourceful and I often found refuge, for example, in my own creativity, in books and in really the dream that there was a bigger world out there for me to explore and to experience. So that drove a lot of the decisions that I made, ranging from the college that I went to to the career that I've ultimately pursued.
06:01
What did you think you were going to be when you were a kid? What did you think you were?
06:04
going to be when you were a kid? Oh, that's such a good question. You know I went through different phases, but I would say that ultimately I was really interested in journalism, and it was originally my plan, in fact, to go to journalism school here in New York, at NYU, and ultimately that did not wind up being my path forward, and instead I landed at FIT, the Fashion Institute of Technology, and it was there that I immersed myself not only in courses that were specific to, for example, fashion journalism, but also in fashion buying and fashion styling. You and I know one another quite well, and that probably makes some of the choices that I've made in my career make a lot more sense to you, of course.
06:52
Yeah, it does. And what made you switch? I mean NYU for someone who, like you, was interested. When I was younger, I was also interested in journalism Sounded like the dream school, and FIT, of course, is an amazing school, but why the pivot?
07:09
Yeah, I think at that stage of my life I was really interested in exploring different kinds of avenues, and for some reason there was always something about the fashion and beauty industries that held a lot of intrigue for me, whereas when I was considering going to NYU, I think I was really considering a much more traditional journalistic path. But the reality is that journalism, even 20 years ago, was already shape-shifting and it continues to shape-shift, and so I just felt like going to fashion school would perhaps counter-intuitively open up a world of other opportunities to me simultaneously.
07:55
And how right you were. I love the word that you use that. It was intriguing. Did you have a sense from like a young age that? Did you have a strong attraction towards fashion?
08:10
You know, I've always been drawn to creative people and to creativity, and I think fashion in particular is very interesting to me and I don't think that I'm going to say anything profound here, but it's such an important avenue for presentation and also for self-expression, and that's what I, and I think so many people, find so powerful about the industry. Right, I think it was Bill Cunningham who once said that fashion is really armor for everyday life, and there was something that I found very appealing about the industry and about the ability to shape others' perceptions of me, to use it as a tool in that way.
08:54
Yeah, it's interesting because knowing you then later on pivoted into beauty. We could also see beauty as the modern woman's armor for those who choose to use beauty to put up a face, essentially for everything.
09:11
Absolutely. I mean, beauty is creativity, it's self-expression, it's self-care. It's more complicated than that. There are also dark sides, obviously, to beauty standards and to the beauty industry, but I do think that's what I find so appealing about those spaces in particular.
09:29
Now I'd like you to tell me about your early career.
09:35
Sure. So you know, I graduated from FIT and I was initially drawn to editorial Again unsurprising, considering sort of what I thought I wanted to be when I grew up, when I was a teenager and in my early 20s. But, as I mentioned, even then the magazine industry in particular was in the beginning of what ultimately became a collapse. And so, like so many people who've worked in editorial, I pivoted, because there's a natural synergy between marketing and communications and the editorial space. And so I began my career, initially working in-house at a multi-brand retailer where I stayed for about a year. The company doesn't exist anymore.
10:19
It was a retailer called Girl Shop, and I think the closest comparison I would make today would be a multi-brand retailer like Shopbop or Revolve.
10:28
So it was largely a contemporary destination and it was a retailer that actually introduced a lot of really incredible young brands to the fashion ecosystem. So that was a wonderful experience, but it was also a challenging experience because it was a startup environment. I took the opportunity around a year later and made a leap into an agency role here in New York where I was working on clients, for example, like Uniqlo. I actually launched Uniqlo here in the States, but at the same time, there was a lot happening online in terms of the emergence of social media, communities and forums, and it was a space that I I will use that word again found really intriguing. It was in those very early days of social media and online community that I made the decision to launch a blog, so my own editorial outlet, which was called embarrassingly enough, in retrospect it was called I for Style, but I for Style launched in 2006. And I was part of what was a very small, tight-knit community of fashion, beauty and shopping bloggers who found a foothold in the broader fashion and beauty industries.
11:41
I find that so exciting and intriguing because it's true that, having for a while forgotten your aspirations as a journalist, I can see how it made so much sense for you to enter the space as a blogger. What were you blogging about?
11:56
I for Style was really a shopping blog, and you can see this throughout the course of my career and you've already kind of made mention of it that I have gone between the fashion and beauty industries over the past 15 to 20 years that I've been working, and similarly I didn't necessarily want to niche myself, even in those early days of blogging, and so it was really a fashion, a beauty and also a lifestyle destination.
12:25
Yeah, it's funny because recently you've launched a sub stack and I remember very accurately your last post. You're coming back to your early loves because you were speaking to my personal favorite category shoes and showcasing a number of really exciting styles of relatively affordable for the spring. Is this something that you're finding exciting? To come back to your roots and have that mode of self-expression?
12:54
I have to say I really do find it very fulfilling and very invigorating to be publishing online again. We didn't necessarily talk about the entire trajectory of I for Style, my blog, but I did blog at I for Style for easily over a decade and I ultimately just felt a degree of fatigue and I also knew that it was not necessarily my path in life to be an influencer or an online editor. I was actually much more interested in the business of fashion and the business of beauty, but at the same time I love having an editorial outlet and it very much speaks to the small community that I've built over social media over the past several years. But I am someone that people often do come to me with questions, for example, about what shoes should I buy, what moisturizer should I be looking for? Is there a great Japanese sunscreen that you would recommend? And so I really use my sub stack kind of as an avenue to answer a lot of those questions.
13:58
This is so great. Next time I have a question about any of these. I often have questions about SPF. I like to wear SPF 50 every day and anyway, good for you so yay, this is brilliant news for me and anybody else who wishes to get some help in that regard. Now, from this position as a blogger, I mean, you did create a decent sized community and you then moved into agency.
14:29
Attention was it called Attention was one of my first agency roles and that was in the earliest days of social media marketing, and I have to give the founder of that agency credit, actually, because the year is 2025 now and we still have thought leaders and journalists talking about what is ultimately the attention economy, and that was something that Curtis Hoagland, who was the founder of that agency 15 plus years ago, recognized even then that attention would become the new currency. And so Curtis and I had crossed paths a little bit earlier in my career and he placed a lot of trust in me in that moment to come on board and to essentially help him develop a fashion and beauty practice in attention. And again, these were the very earliest days of the internet, so we were really introducing brands to the concept of online content and community social media, having more of a discourse, for example, rather than a monologue with your audience. And then it was also again the very earliest days of influencer marketing, and so we were introducing brands to the influencers that mattered in their respective vertical, creating meaningful experiences for those influencers to gain mindshare and to ensure editorial coverage, and also doing, in some cases, much more creative and even groundbreaking kinds of partnerships.
15:57
So, for example, I think back to one of my favorite clients at the time was David Yerman, a really renowned American jewelry brand, and we launched, for example, a very interesting social commerce experiment on Facebook easily 12 plus years ago with David Yurman, where we had five different influencers, including Tina Craig from Bag Snob who is now the founder of YouBeauty, for example, but we had those five influencers essentially curate all of their holiday selects from David Yerman and they were presented exclusively on Facebook for purchase. So now it's 2025 and we have TikTok shop, for example, breaking through in the US and launching I think soon, if not already throughout EMEA, and it feels like social commerce, for example, is finally reaching a degree of maturity. But the reality is that a lot of the trends that we talk about now as bleeding edge have actually been bubbling beneath the surface for the past decade plus.
16:59
There's a reason as well why I remember the name of that agency, by the way, for the same reason that you mentioned, because attention feels relevant. Right, I remember seeing your resume and I remember the name and the experience and the expertise that you grew under Curtis and what you created for the brands that you worked for.
17:21
It was a really formative time in my career, honestly, and I look back at it fondly. I still have former colleagues who are now friends and it's really interesting to see where everyone's career has taken them, and so many of my former colleagues from attention are now very senior leaders across the best imaginable brands, ranging from entertainment to fashion, to beauty and beyond entertainment to fashion, to beauty and beyond.
17:47
Yeah, starting so early with something that has become such an intricate part of our lives as consumers and, of course, for brands as well.
17:52
And then we met, and so we had the pleasure of working together for a number of years I can't remember how many years that was actually I think I was with Louis Vuitton for about four years and it was again another formative time in my career and I am forever grateful to you actually, and to the team, for taking a risk on someone who was coming from an agency background and had never worked in-house. It's such a special company and I still have so much affection for the brand and my time there much affection for the brand and my time there.
18:29
Yeah me too, and we did work on some really interesting projects. I must say we really did. Now, you stayed at Louis Vuitton for four years and then you went from one sexy Frenchman because you know Red Souls and Christian definitely sexy to another very sexy and rebellious French man. When you moved on to work for Francois Nas and for those listening to us who don't know about Nas he famously created the best-selling blush of the brand, called Orgasm, back in 1999. And it's still a bestseller for the brand. It's still renowned the world over. So I'd love to hear from you what was it like to move from fashion and shoes and into such a prestigious beauty brand?
19:17
You know, I think it's interesting because, beyond the cultural connection, there's a lot in common between Christian Louboutin and also NARS. I talked a little bit earlier about how I've always been drawn, I think, to founder-led brands or to creative-led brands, and I've also always been drawn to brands that have genuine lore, a real story that is ideally rooted in creativity and artistry. Francois Nars is an incredible creative. He is clearly a provocateur at the same time. I think just you referenced orgasm, but Nars has been kind of a provocative brand over the course of the past 30 years, yeah. So, yeah, I felt like there was a lot of commonality actually between the brands, and my experience at Louis Vuitton was only beneficial to me, even transitioning into a beauty brand versus a fashion brand.
20:15
So I came on board at NARS at a really interesting time, initially in 2018 as a consultant, and then I joined the brand in a full-time capacity in January of 2019. And I was given a pretty broad scope in that my role was really focused on digital touchpoints globally, and that was encompassing not only kind of content and editorial, but also media, social and innovation, and the innovation piece has really been, I think, a through line in my career, obviously through that early embrace of online communities, social media, influencer marketing. But at NARS I was given an opportunity to take that to a new level, in part because of the brand's history of innovation, but also because of the time period in which I was working at the brand, which intersected, for example, with COVID and that initial lockdown in 2020, which led to a lot of really compelling digital experimentation for brands.
21:16
Yeah, I did not think to connect the two, but yeah, it must have been really interesting. Now, before we go a little bit deeper and talk about some of the innovation that you spearheaded for NAS, I'm thinking that some of our listeners may not be super familiar with terminology like NFTs and Web3, though at least I think everyone is au fait with what AI means. So would you mind giving us a sense of what these terms mean specifically as well, in the realm of the beauty brands that you've worked with?
21:52
Sure, and just to add a little context to that, I mentioned at least that experimentation and innovation during my tenure at NARS, and a lot of that experimentation was in, for example, spaces like gaming, more immersive environments and also in Web3. So when we think about Web3 in particular, there are technical definitions, although, I'm going to be honest, I feel like there is still, even now, in 2025, not necessarily an agreed upon definition of Web3, which is perhaps one of its problems a conversation for another day. I personally like to take a very expansive view on what Web3 means To me. That is really. It represents essentially the next iteration of the internet, one that is more immersive, more personalized and participatory. And I think one point that's really important you mentioned AI, and I think that, rightfully, so many industries and so many brands are focused on AI implementations in this moment, because AI is definitely a transformative technology, but the reality is that Web3 and AI are interdependent in many ways. So there are some very interesting intersections there, which I don't want to go too deeply down the rabbit hole, but when we think about, for example, AI, we're seeing a rise in synthetic content, for example, and deepfakes and one of the ways in which we can guarantee the authenticity of content is actually through technology like blockchain, which is part of Web3. It's very interesting to just think about how those technologies intersect.
23:30
You also mentioned NFTs. This is a very jargon-heavy space. An NFT is a non-fungible token, but I think, to express that simply, an NFT is really just a digital asset, and so that can be many different kinds of things. I think one of the more compelling use cases for NFTs and digital collectibles over the course of the past few years has actually been in the fine art space.
23:55
I was thinking the same thing, absolutely. That's the only space that interested me when I saw that.
24:01
Yeah, there are incredible artists who are working either in exclusively digital mediums or who are combining physical work with digital representations to create, like that digital twin effect, which is something that we're also seeing a fair amount of conversation around in the luxury fashion space in particular.
24:23
Yeah, yeah. Would you explain for people who don't understand what that is the digital twin?
24:30
Sure.
24:30
So a digital twin is essentially just a digital representation of a real world product, and so I can give you two tangible examples.
24:38
I think, first and foremost, when we think about gaming environments or immersive spaces like Roblox, which is not technically a gaming platform, people want to express themselves in those digital environments in the same way that they want to express themselves in the real world. And so, let's say, I'm styling my avatar in a platform like Roblox. I might want to wear a digital twin of the Valentino blouse that I currently have on, and so there is a future in which brands are producing digital versions of their goods to allow people to style their avatars, for example, in all kinds of immersive environments. And then there's also a very interesting digital specific fashion ecosystem. So we don't need to get too deeply into that space, I think, for the sake of our conversation. For example, there is a fashion, a digital fashion collective called Psyche, which was founded by the former chief digital officer of Ralph Lauren and also an alum of Burberry, and you have an incredible roster of digital fashion designers who are creating digital specific work for avatars, and those are then being sold, by the way, as NFTs.
25:53
So I know that gets a little bit complicated to understand and it's also still, realistically speaking, it's quite niche, but there are some more practical implications around digital twins as well, and Anne you might be familiar with this, but there are some more practical implications around digital twins as well, and Anne you might be familiar with this but there's some impending legislation, for example, throughout the EU, that will require brands to have what's called a digital product passport, and that is essentially a way for brands and for consumers to have a constant thread of communication, and it is something that can be implemented as easily, in a way that is as simple to access as, for example, a QR code, and it will allow you to access information about the manufacturing of that product.
26:42
It will allow you to confirm that product's authenticity, it will allow the brand to push updates to you and or to cross sell, etc. So there's a lot of interesting implications there, but a lot of care and repairs definitely. And we do see, by the way, a lot of really big luxury conglomerates that are quite invested in digital product passports. For example, lvmh has implemented these through many of their most prestigious brands, ranging from Brunello, cuginelli to Laura Piana and Rimowa. Anyone who is purchasing product from those collections has the opportunity to engage with a digital product passport to register their ownership of that product, et cetera.
27:26
I find it very interesting indeed, but for our listeners who've not tried to create an avatar and use an avatar on any of the platforms that we've talked about, it is surprisingly annoying to actually have a digital version of yourself out there and to have it very badly dressed. It took me about 30 minutes of being on roadblocks to just realize how annoying that would be, Because it sounds so strange. But if it's going to have my name on it, it needs to have some kind of connection to who I am in the world, and it could be an amplified version or simplified Any other. I could explore any number of avenues to creatively express myself online, but I could. As early as I tried to play with it, I noticed the real value that this can have If we think that we in the future could interact at that level.
28:24
And who does not want to get made up to go on Zoom? There is something to be said about using your avatar. If she's already NARS ready, Valentino Bedeckt, there are some interesting opportunities to explore. So now that we're a little bit clearer on the terms, I'd love for you to tell me some of the most interesting projects that you spearheaded for NARS and there's a few that I explored and read about, but perhaps you can go to the ones that you felt were the most interesting or exciting in the space.
29:06
Sure. So we did quite a bit of exploration at NARS and a lot of that work was genuinely exciting. There are probably two projects or types of projects that I will spotlight. The brand really did quite a bit of exploration during my tenure of gaming and immersive environments and beginning in 2020 with an Animal Crossing integration, actually, and then moving in 2021 to partner with Zepeto, which is an immersive metaverse style app that is quite popular in Asia. We learned a lot from those early sort of gaming integrations and partnerships.
29:40
I think a couple of the unlocks. For me, there are really two. First and foremost, it is validating virtual goods as a very powerful means of connecting in those spaces. So you were just talking about, for example, how challenging it was to create maybe an avatar that truly felt like Anne within Roblox. I will say Roblox has probably evolved a bit since you've tried, but there are also other platforms that allow you a much more compelling expression of your personal style, and Zepeto is one of those to do so, because you can customize everything from the shape of your eyebrows to the size of your nose, to the expression of your lips, to, of course, your entire sort of beauty, look and style, and so we created some really compelling digital exclusive merchandise for Zepeto. But, more importantly, we created some very compelling artistry looks that were sort of first of their kind within that ecosystem. And so it allowed users on Zepeto to have kind of a NARS approved look that featured hero products including, for example, orgasm Blush, and they could literally just put that beautiful artistry look on their avatar and change it out depending on the day and on their mood and what they wanted to express about themselves. And those virtual goods and those virtual artistry looks they were enormously resonant. The project itself it was maybe a three or four month flight within Zepeto that encompassed multiple touch points and we saw close to 900,000 virtual goods that were sold within that ecosystem. So it dramatically exceeded our expectations. And keep in mind, you know, obviously buying a virtual artistry look is not the equivalent of buying a $40 lip gloss at Sephora, but at the same time it just really reinforced that that was something that users within those spaces felt really strongly about. So I think that that was one piece.
31:48
It was really that work, for example, in Animal Crossing, in the luxury styling game Dressed, and also in Zepeto that led to the brand launching ultimately on Roblox, which is for those people who may not know, it's like a user-generated platform. A lot of the user-generated experiences on platform are games. However, it isn't inherently a gaming platform. It just takes in, for example, game mechanics and that kind of inspiration. So we were able to create and this launched in 2023, nars ColorQuest, which was actually just the second branded beauty experience to launch on Roblox and I have to give Givenchy credit here actually the second branded beauty experience to launch on Roblox, and I have to give Givenchy credit here. Actually, givenchy launched their experience on Roblox literally five days before we launched NARS ColorQuest. So it was a slightly sad moment for me, but I also had to applaud, obviously, how quickly they were able to move.
32:39
So NARS ColorQuest was, I have to say, an incredible project to work on, because it was a very expansive experience that was rooted in the DNA and the lore of the brand. So there were so many elements in play, including, for example, our founder, francois NARS, who appeared as an NPC on the home island. There were dedicated environments within the experience that heroed key franchises and there was even really a quote-unquote metaverse. First, in that we introduced a feature called Lookbook that allowed people to create fully customized makeup looks for their avatar within the experience. So that was again like a very successful element of the experience and it really, I think, was quite successful in reinforcing NARS as an artistry-led brand.
33:32
Yeah, when you talk about specific franchises, can you tell me more?
33:36
So you know, I think beauty and this is true to fashion as well to a degree it's really essential to beauty to have a few core kind of products that consumers come to you for time and time again. And so for NARS, that is a brand that is really rooted in complexion and also in cheek in terms of category, and so you referenced, for example, of course you know, those iconic blushes like Orgasm, but blush and all different kinds of formulas, all different shades are really important to that business. And similarly NARS is renowned for some of the best in class kind of complexion formulas, so foundation and also concealer. So we created, for example, an environment that really heroed one of those core complexion groups of products which was light, reflecting that's very interesting complexion groups of products which was light reflecting.
34:26
That's very interesting. If I'm correct, you also did, but that was in 2022,. You had another project where you spearheaded virtual ambassadors for the brand, and this was for a matte lip right, and I was very interested in this project. So first, the virtual ambassadors were coined MetaHuman, they were nicknamed the Power Players and their names were Maxine, chelsea and Sissy, and they became virtual influencers for NARS digital projects, and I would love for you to tell me how did this come about, how did you create these avatars, how did they come to life and what did that bring to the brand?
35:13
So that was another really intense but very fulfilling project ultimately, you know, and I think when you say intense, can I stop you there?
35:23
How intense are we talking? When you say intense, can I stop you there?
35:24
How intense are we talking? I think for all of these projects we were really figuring it out as we went. It's like you have this idea, you identify the platform, you identify the partner, but then there are inherent limitations to technology. So that was just a very complicated project with many different stakeholders and a lot of visibility. So we were immersed in the development, I would say, for easily seven or eight months, and that was probably an ambitious timeline actually to create three metahuman ambassadors from the ground up.
36:02
I mentioned we had some incredible collaborators on that project. We worked with a really amazing studio based in London called Dimension. They do a lot of work in gaming and also in entertainment, and their specialty is development in Unreal Engine. So Unreal Engine is a platform that sits within Epic Games and it empowers the development of photorealistic environments and people, and so that was really the technology that we leveraged to create these virtual influencers.
36:38
We brought in some very interesting, very close brand collaborators, including, for example, the global artistry director for NARS, lena Coro, who created the makeup looks for all of the avatars, and then we brought in a woman who is a legend in her own right and that is Patti Wilson, who styles all of the NARS campaigns and Patti, for example, created the outfits for each of the avatars.
37:02
Yeah, I think a couple of important points to note is that we did want to create a degree of representation of the NARS consumer in every way imaginable, and that's challenging to do with only three virtual ambassadors, but we wanted to make sure that everyone could feel a degree of representation and that the avatars would be globally resonant and, in particular, that they would be resonant in Asia, notably China, for example, where consumers have a very different relationship with virtual ambassadors and they are widely accepted and drive tremendous engagement, not only through the social ecosystem but even in spaces like live commerce.
37:43
So we wanted to make sure that we had that foundation in place and each of the avatars was also ultimately inspired by one hero shade of Nars Lip. So, for example, maxine was one of my favorite of the three avatars and she was inspired by Dragon Girl, which is an iconic Nars red, and so everything from her persona, her personality, which we did a lot of work on, narrative and personality, but also, of course, her makeup look and her outfit were designed to kind of bring the concept of dragon girl to life.
38:15
So I felt a little bit annoyed that I missed the live activation of this trio of avatars, and I found something super interesting that you said in one of the features that came out around the time I think it was in Vogue Business, and you were quoted to say there's a wealth of inspiration to be found in shade storytelling.
38:38
And at first I was intrigued I think that's the word of the day and compelling to think of storytelling based on shade or texture and brand artistry and and and. In about a half second I completely understood that there's so much that you can communicate to a client. There are a few shades that I'm really wedded to, but, for example, I love a metallic or rose gold nail polish or a pale gold nail polish. It became almost like a signature and I'd never thought about it until I read those words. And it's true also of lip colors. I'm very faithful to the few lip colors that I have found that I like. So I wonder, working with the Web3, these immersive gaming environments, the possibilities with the avatars and now with AI, the possibilities with the avatars and now with AI how do you see storytelling shifting or opening up for brand campaigns?
39:46
Yeah, it's such a good question. I think the reality is that storytelling is always rooted in connection and the desire to connect. But what changes in more immersive environments or in Web3 is really how people engage with that narrative and even own that narrative in some instances. And so, when we think back to the early days of digital marketing and social media, brands were very focused on broadcasting their story. So really one way communication on broadcasting their story, so really one-way communication. And you and I both know intimately that social media really changed that by allowing for conversation and more community engagement. And that continues to evolve even now, right, in terms of how a platform like TikTok changes how brands even luxury brands at the pinnacle of their respective spaces. It really changes how brands even luxury brands at the pinnacle of their respective spaces. It really changes how they engage with their audience and with their end consumer.
40:46
But I would argue that Web3 really takes that a step further by theoretically giving consumers a stake in the story itself and some of the things that people working in these environments like to talk about. One of the things, in particular, is really around the concept of co-creation, and that isn't necessarily a new idea, right, there have been new, and not even new. There have been immersive and co-created experiences for a very long time. One could even argue that a brand like Glossier was ultimately co-created with input from its community to become an industry leader, and I think there's a lot of very interesting technology and there are also platforms now that really reinforce that dialogue between brands and consumer, and I think that we will continue to see that relationship shift and consumers have a more meaningful stake in the brands that they care most about.
41:43
As for where we are now, I know that you and I have faced our share of obstacles when it came to digital innovation and that was, for me, was pre-Web3, and none of the clients I've worked with in the last few years have wanted to dabble in this space, and I was wondering if you have any learnings to share from the last few years that you've been trialing and testing these new technologies, any kind of learning around how to foster innovation, especially in an environment where the technology is advanced very fast and where a lot of people within the brands so across the different business units don't necessarily understand the technology and the opportunity in terms of connecting with the clientele.
42:37
Yeah, I think there are a few fundamentals, I would say, that really help lay the groundwork for innovation work or for at least shifting mindsets within organizations that might be a little more traditional. First and foremost, it's really important to build trust within an organization, and I think that there are a lot of different ways to do that. A few tactics that I have always relied on are really centered in education, and that can be depending on the individual and their role within a company. I think that can look really different.
43:12
In my last role at Shiseido Americas, I was essentially the champion for innovation within the group.
43:18
I took every opportunity to inspire and educate my peers across every imaginable functional area, and that could be something as simple as dropping a compelling link into a Slack channel. It could be compiling a weekly newsletter, for example, on advances in technology, innovation, on platform having, brand activations, etc. And then I also did quite a bit in terms of both virtual and real world programming. So, for example, I would bring in the founders of what I considered to be high potential fashion and beauty startups and I would have them sit with me to talk about what they were building, and then I would invite Q&A from the audience who had been invited to that to help everyone in the room come to their own opinion, better understand, kind of the macro challenges facing the group and also the challenges facing the brand, because ultimately it's never effective to lead with the technology. It's like you really want to understand why you're tapping into the technology. What problem is that going to solve for the organization? What opportunity will that open up?
44:47
Yeah, of course I was very interested to hear about these fireside chats that you were introducing to the group. Is there anyone in particular that you had that you invited that sort of shown particularly brightly and brought on that level of understanding within the guests that were attending?
45:05
Sure. So I had a wide mix of kind of founders and creative directors on over the course of my tenure. I think a couple of the startups that I find really compelling One actually is rooted in co-creation, and it's a company called Kiki World. So Kiki is both a brand and a white label platform that is disrupting, I would say, largely, the beauty industry. The founder of Kiki is an alumni of Google and Sephora, so it's hard to have more credibility in beauty. Yeah, that's pretty great. And she's essentially building a space where not only brands but also creators and personalities can co-create product with their community. So she's worked with some very interesting retailers like Ulta Beauty. She's worked actually with some of the international Vogue additions to, for example, crowdsource a cover. So there are all different use cases, I think, for that technology.
46:12
And that was definitely something that sparked quite a bit of ideation internally that new channel that opened up the possibilities of connection. One of the things that I was wondering is, as you were trialing these new avenues and projects, first at NAS and later at Shiseido, who were the target markets.
46:31
So I think the answer really depends on the brand and on the project.
46:35
So, for example, for some of those early gaming implementations or the Roblox experience that we developed at NARS, a lot of that was about engaging kind of the next generation of consumers, so that could be younger Gen Z consumers.
46:50
Or even, for example, priming Gen Alpha, which has become a really interesting kind of beauty consumer, at least here in the US over the past couple of years, a really interesting kind of beauty consumer, at least here in the US over the past couple of years.
47:05
I think in part. I hate to again cite the rise of TikTok, but TikTok has been really transformative to how consumers discover and engage with brands. In some cases it was about reaching that younger demographic, but then for other brands within the portfolio they were more focused, for example, on an upper millennial or a Gen X consumer, and so the tactics that we took to animate those brands were very different. So, for example, one of the last projects that I worked on actually during my tenure at Shiseido was for the flagship brand, brand Shiseido, a really beautiful multi-sensory VR experience that lived on the floor of Macy's Herald Square in New York, which is a highly trafficked department store, as anyone might imagine, and that really allowed us a very immersive and engaging way to tell the story around a particular product franchise for Shiseido, which was, by the way, the most premium skincare franchise for the brand.
48:04
I did find some and I will put the link in the show notes for anyone who wants to have a look at it. I did find a couple of links that still give a sense of what that immersive environment was like, and it looked absolutely stunning. What was that like to put into play an element of immersive Web3 into such a prominent physical retail space?
48:28
I mean, I think that's a space that I'm very interested in. Frankly. It's kind of that more integrated approach to experiential. I really do think that the retail environment, in particular, brands that succeed in retail are brands that will embrace the more experiential elements, and technology is a very powerful way to bring in experiential elements. So, for example, for that Shiseido experience, we built that in partnership with a very cool female-founded London-based startup called Zydro, and one of the things that made their product so compelling is that it is ultimately a multi-sensory experience.
49:11
So you are stepping into a pod, you are putting on a state-of-the-art headset, but you are also experiencing incredible sort of Dolby surround sound. There are experiential elements like wind that can come through the pod, and then you're also able to play with elements of scent, and so it is much more of a true immersion versus what you would generally see with a tech implementation at retail, and we saw, for example, that some consumers had an incredibly emotional experience, and that is actually the power, by the way, of VR. I don't know what your relationship is to VR I'm certainly not spending a lot of time in VR personally but it is an incredibly powerful tool for empathy and for experience. So, yeah, that was a very interesting project and definitely one that engaged kind of a higher end and older consumer.
50:06
Yeah, I'm super interested in that.
50:09
I personally already, about a year and a half ago, two years ago VR before I decided to go in person and in person has an objective of creating more of a community.
50:29
There is a different level of immersion, but there's a part of me that still really really wants to create and host something that has this hybrid element. I don't know what it has been like for you for the last few years, but, of course, you and I worked across distances with a lot of other team members for so the idea of working and being online behind a zoom screen or any other kind of screen is something that's very familiar to me and that I don't find. I don't find it much of a constraint in terms of creating and fostering relationships, and perhaps I could even go as far as saying that I've developed some really meaningful relationships with people that I've met online, and so for that reason, because we are far apart, I do really like the idea of creating interesting, different immersive spaces with VR, but if they can have something in common, if there can be a through line with something that's real and physical, I find that even more exciting.
51:37
I agree and, to be clear, there is no digital interaction that is a substitute for connection in the real world. But I do think that technology, whether it's VR or other technology, opens up a lot of avenues for accessibility in all of its meanings. And then I also feel and I touched on this a little bit ago, but it's really about how technology can enhance rather than replace those experiences. And I think, in looking ahead, the near term, the midterm, increasingly, I think it's less about choosing between digital and in-person experiences and more about seamlessly blending them together to create something that is essentially greater than the sum of its parts and that really allows us to elevate brand storytelling in some very compelling ways, to strengthen consumer connection and, I also think, to bring it back to the branded implications. It does make retail spaces or branded experiences that much more engaging does make retail spaces or branded experiences that much more engaging.
52:42
What of exclusivity when we talk about digital? Which is digital, Horrible word.
52:49
Horrible word, I know, but I quite like how it's spelled.
52:53
But what of exclusivity? When we think of Web3, when we think of Web3, when we think of immersive experiences, have you, in the work that you've done and the tests that you've done, has it always been about a broader reach of a specific demographic, or have you ever had a chance to go very narrow for something that was really for a handful of very good clients?
53:20
That is a very good question, I will say I think, generally speaking, most of the projects that I've worked on in this space have been about acquiring and engaging new audiences to the brands and or shifting perception, but, at the same time, even thinking about an experience like the Zydrope, which was the partner on the multisensory VR experience, the Zydrope experience at Macy's Herald Square, that was ultimately only maybe 400 or 450 customers actually had the opportunity to have the full multsensory VR experience within Macy's Herald Square, and so that was reserved for actually a very specific group of Shiseido clients initially.
54:10
And then, of course, having an experience like that at your counter peaks a lot of curiosity from passersby, and so, even for customers or prospective customers who weren't able to have the full immersive VR experience, I think that just seeing that implementation on the floor of Macy's Herald Square at the Shiseido counter, that is sometimes enough to at least spark curiosity in the brand and in the franchise and the product that they were promoting. And, that said, we of course use the content as well across social media to allow us to reach a much broader audience, so that we weren't just kind of engaging those, let's say, 450 customers.
54:55
Yeah, that's super interesting and I guess that beauty in general has a different price point and has a different breadth and reach than the luxury fashion brands that you and I have worked for. I do hope that I see more being done to really foster a sense of connection to a specific clientele. I have a feeling that it could unlock a lot of loyalty, a lot of excitement and a different opportunity for engagement.
55:24
I agree with you. I think there's a lot of opportunity from a clienteling standpoint in particular, and when I think about the luxury brands that I have a relationship with the Gucci's or the Balenciaga's of the world those are brands that are still largely reliant on sales associates and their relationship and communication channels like WhatsApp, and it definitely feels like there's an opportunity to kind of make that much more personalized and much more engaging.
55:53
Yeah, and I know that there are a lot of people who have tested and built some tentative new solutions in that space and right now I haven't yet seen something that breaks the mold and that goes towards that immersive experience. But you know, who knows?
56:12
I'm sure there is work being done behind the scenes. We'll see if it launches.
56:17
Exactly. If yeah, we'll see if it launches Exactly Now. One of the questions I selfishly wanted to ask you is what are you finding are the most interesting platforms in 2025?
56:31
So I will maybe take a detour and bring us back to social media, because I do think that some of the platforms that I'm most interested in almost bring us back to the origins of social media I was hoping you'd go there and a more human connection. One platform that I'm really excited by is Substack, which we talked about a little bit earlier, and obviously I have my own presence on Substack, but I think it's been quite interesting over the past few years to see the rise of influence on Substack, and that crosses, by the way, many different verticals. But to stay on topic for you and I, there's such a fascinating group of legacy editors, for example, and also OG influencers, who have embraced Substack and built very compelling publications and really engaged communities on platform, and one of the things that I like about that is that it's really indicative, I think, of the rise of independent media, and it also very much connects back to the idea that in this era of the internet we're much more drawn to individuals or to personalities than we are to more established entities, and so that's playing out a lot on Substack and it's a place, I think, for a lot of really compelling intellectual discourse. So that's one platform that I'm very excited by.
58:07
Another platform that I remain excited by and it's certainly not new, but that would be Reddit. One of the things that I always say if I'm talking, for example, to a brand partner, let's say it's like when I want to know what people really think. Reddit is one of the first places that I go, and there's a reason why platforms like OpenAI and Google have very meaningful partnerships with Reddit, and that is because it is hub to so many incredible human-to-human connections and there's again a compelling exchange of expertise and ideas that happens within Reddit communities and I think, in particular, the interplay between AI and the changes that we're seeing to the internet, like Reddit and also established legacy media, by the way have almost like a synergistic role to play with that technology, because they are such important sites for training material for the LLMs.
59:15
Yeah, you know what I know? Reddit is really important. I regularly forget about it up until there's a problem in my life and I take to Google and then I go to Reddit to find the solution.
59:28
I also find audio very exciting. I mean, obviously you and I are connecting over a podcast, but I think that that space is just exploding and some might say there are too many podcasts right, there are many, but I think that it again just reinforces that there is that opportunity for more human-to-human connection and also to longer form discussions and engagement, which I think is really necessary to combat that short form attention span that we all have.
01:00:15
It's true that I still feel audio has a very different way of connecting and absorbing storytelling. There's such an onslaught of content that comes at us through our eyes that I block a lot of it. I'm less excited by Substack than you are, because I feel like I've gotten into too many Substacks and now, as a result, I keep on deleting every time that someone emails me on Substack, even though there are some wonderful people, of course, yourself included. Going back to what you were saying, though, about Substack and the legacy editors, I have to say one of my favorites is Leandra Medans, who I think remains like one of my favorite people to read.
01:01:01
I still love her style, and is there anybody else who you particularly look forward to reading?
01:01:10
I would agree with you. I think, leandra I mean first of all just a tiny detour. There was a moment on TikTok, maybe a year or so ago, when I saw a young creator talking about man repelling style and she had no idea, by the way, that man repeller had been of the earliest most influential voices in the blogosphere. So I love the way that Leandra Medin has reinvented herself, and her sub stack is certainly one of the most popular fashion substacks. There's also a vibrant ecosystem actually of content around brand marketing and growth marketing, which I find really educational. And then I love reading some of the more, I would say, legacy journalists, like an Amy O'Dell, who was the former editor-in-chief, for example, of the Cut she's great who was the former editor-in-chief, for example, of the Cut.
01:01:58
She's great and she does so much original reporting that lives on Substack. So, yeah, there are a lot of outlets like that and I think to your point, it can easily become overwhelming, and I think that's one of the hazards of the subscription economy, to be honest. And so I'm very interested to see where Substack as a platform because it is indeed a social media platform in many ways, following the same territory that's been tread by all of the platforms that came before it. I'm curious to see how they evolve, maybe their subscription and monetization model. So we'll see what's to come.
01:02:40
Yeah, a little bit of a hypocrite, because I did invest in Substack and I decided to also leave the platform, so I've got my feet in both camps.
01:02:45
You can travel all the time.
01:02:47
Exactly In terms of the gaming and immersion spaces. Is there any technology or anything that is making you feel excited in terms of brand work this year?
01:03:05
Yes Again, I think that's a very good question. I think the technology that I find most interesting in this moment would be the Meta Ray-Ban smart glasses. Have you had the opportunity to try all those yourself?
01:03:18
No, I haven't.
01:03:19
It's a pretty compelling product. Meta was quite wise to partner with Ray-Ban for a multitude of reasons, and there are multiple styles available, which that's previously been an issue, I would say with wearable technology, where, oh my goodness, think back to the original Google Glass who, in their right mind, wanted to wear.
01:03:36
Google Glass. I remember when Diane von Furstenberg wore them on her runway.
01:03:41
Yeah, she was my client when we did that partnership with Google and sent them down the runway. Yes, but the meta Ray-Bans it's really iconic styles, including the Wayfarer, so they're very easy for people to wear. And then the technology, I think, is very thoughtfully integrated so you can put on those glasses and you're able to not only, for example, take photos and shoot point of view video, but you can also access meta AI and use that as an assistant. And then one of the more interesting and useful integrations for me is actually around audio. So instead of, for example, having to wear a pair of sunglasses and my AirPods or whatever, when I'm going for a nice walk in Prospect Park, I can just put on the MetaRay bands and I can listen to a podcast in my ear. I can also shoot photos, take video, etc. So I think it's a really interesting, very well done product and I will again be very interested to see how that product evolves because it already has resonated kind of beyond that niche techie community.
01:04:40
Yeah, You're really selling it to me with the audio piece because we agree you're going to be wearing glasses if it's sunny Interesting. I'm not a meta fan, so you know, there's just that yeah there's just that. How do you feel about TikTok at the moment?
01:05:01
I have so many complicated feelings about TikTok. That's why I'm asking. I will try to be succinct. Look, I think TikTok is a very interesting platform. I've mentioned it several times in our conversation today alone. I think it really has been transformative, not only to the social media landscape but to culture and society more broadly.
01:05:23
That said, I definitely do not trust TikTok and I have a lot of reservations around their aggressive push into social commerce over the past 18 plus months, and I think that TikTok shop has only been, in many cases, detrimental to the TikTok experience. And I think that brands also need to be very careful about TikTok shop because it is a very complicated and expensive endeavor to do. Well and I would argue, based on all of the data that I've seen, for example, around average order value or the consumer profile, that you are really using that essentially as a growth marketing engine. You're not necessarily doing anything in terms of brand building. So whatever you're doing as a brand on TikTok shop really needs to be balanced with meaningful brand marketing platform and in other spaces as well, to ensure that that is not detrimental to the brand.
01:06:19
Yeah, if that makes sense.
01:06:21
That really does make sense. Yeah, I was listening I sent you a podcast yesterday that I listened to today in the car by Yancey Strickler and I can't remember the co-host at MetaLabel, and they were talking about the you know, do I or do I not platform, so which platform to be on and what are the advantages for? And they were talking much more in terms of creators, not in terms of brands, okay, but I remember being amused when I heard the guy compare TikTok to QVC, which I mean, to an extent, I can see where he's going with that. Yeah, now we have arrived, let's say, at an enormous crossroads as of last year with the launch of ChatGPT and all of the others. How are you feeling about AI in terms of what it can do, in terms of development of brand equity? Because I think what I'm not seeing in all platforms at the moment is the creation of something that really brings long-term benefits for the kind of luxury brands that you and I have worked for.
01:07:41
I think that's a really profound question and I don't know that we've seen anything to date from the AI platforms or from brands that is ultimately equity building. We've seen some early experiments I think Brunello, cucinelli, to use them as an example again. They created essentially an AI enhanced site that allowed for much deeper narrative storytelling and exploration by the consumer. So I did think that was an interesting experiment, especially for a brand that sits at that end of the market. But when I think about AI and this is a space where, much like TikTok, I have mixed emotions, right, I think that AI is a very interesting technology. It opens up a lot of opportunity for individuals, for solopreneurs, much less brands, but at the same time, I think it is likely to be quite detrimental to interpersonal relationships and potentially to our society at large if we're not very, very careful. That's a big answer, you know. To kind of bring it back to what I think is most compelling, maybe from a brand or a broader internet standpoint, I'm very curious to see how AI continues to transform search behavior. So you know, we've already seen a bit of a shift and it's still early days but rather than, for example, stringing together Boolean search queries on Google. People are leaning on much more conversational exchanges with models like ChatGPT or Cloud in order to find the answers to their questions and also to have you know. To come back to that idea of dialogue versus a broadcast, you can actually have a dialogue with that LLM, with that chatbot, and really go down the rabbit hole on a topic that you might be interested in. So I think that that shift in behavior around search is going to have a lot of repercussions through the broader internet landscape.
01:09:46
There are also some very interesting platforms and products that are probably in the beta stages right now. I think Daydream is one of the more interesting platforms on my radar. Daydream is essentially an AI-powered multi-brand luxury shopping experience, and so, instead of going to bergdorfgoodmancom and entering Black Pump, I can put together a much more meaningful and personal question or query around what I'm looking for, drop that into Daydream and it will allow me to iterate on that, and then it will serve up all different kinds of options from retailers sort of around the globe. So that is a very interesting platform that I think has the potential to be disruptive again, to help people discover, I would say, product and make purchasing decisions.
01:10:41
Very interesting. Yeah To your point about how search is going to change. Very interesting. Yeah To your point about how search is going to change. I have to say I have been using Perplexity AI Pro for a few months and I'm a lot less on Google, and I am on DuckDuckGo as well for privacy reasons. But it's true that I'm using search in a very different way because of the depth of research that gets done by perplexity and the quality of the sources that it comes up, which I think if I were working with a brand right now I'd want to be working on. How do I surface the right content by using Claude or? Perplexity is more interesting because you can click through to all of the search and so, as someone who is really wanting to go down a rabbit hole, you then can access the source material directly after the search has been done by the AI. It's a very interesting space.
01:11:44
I wonder if you've tried and heard of Sublimeapp. I haven't. What is Sublime?
01:11:52
Sublime is a personal knowledge management tool for creatives, developed by a woman that you may have come across in New York called Sari Azout. She had a startup, the name of which I forgot, which she sold. It was an early circular platform that he ended up selling someone else and so she was around New York around the time that you were doing Eye for Style and she's now based out of Miami and the way that she has used the platform is run on open AI. But what they're building essentially is really interesting because their goal is to help curate as well as surface content without tagging, because we see the AI understands concepts without the need to tag and creating serendipity in so doing. It's very cool. It's very cool and they're moving into audio as well and into canvas so that you can also visually see all of the ideas coming together, and I highly recommend it as a tool. I could see how someone could do something similar, but working in fashion. I wonder if what you're describing with Daydream is somehow associated with what she's doing there.
01:13:12
I will take a look and I will come back to you. When you were talking about these different options, I was going to say what I'd like to see brands doing more is leaning on audio more, because it has that sense of intimacy and that directness in terms of the storytelling, and we are assailed, our eyes are attacked almost by the amount of content that we see everywhere. I remember a couple of years ago, I was interviewing a very interesting psychotherapist based in New York City who's an ACT therapist and teaches mindfulness as well, and he was talking about why it's so important for us to go in nature so that at some point there are no messages to read anywhere. Because he was talking about how, when you get on the subway, every opportunity that there is to be branding or marketing something, it's all over the place and it takes a real toll cognitively. As we were saying earlier, I wonder why people are not leaning on audio more when it's so easy, she says holding her microphone.
01:14:16
I do think that, for a lot of brands in particular, it can be an intimidating endeavor, in part because there is not a lot of organic discovery of audio content. You are generally, as the creator or the publisher, responsible for driving audience, so that means that there needs to be not only an investment in talent whether that's internal or external talent but also the investment in production and the investment in distribution. That said, I do think that there are some brands it's a select few, but there are some brands who do some really compelling things with audio. So, for example and this is not podcasting, but hear me out- no, because I was not looking for podcasts.
01:15:02
I was not thinking of podcasts actually.
01:15:04
Yeah, oh, okay, perfect. So the example I was going to give were actually two brands, very different brands, one of which is the niche perfume house, diaz and Durga. So for Diaz and Durga, brooklyn-based perfumer, for every one of their fragrances they actually curate an accompanying Spotify playlist. And that playlist is not only a curation, actually, but it also includes commissioned music that helps bring to life the inspiration and the feeling of the fragrance.
01:15:35
I'm clapping for people who can't see me. That's fantastic.
01:15:39
Yeah, so that's really wonderful. And then a very different example coming from the CPG space but Barilla, the pasta company, actually has dedicated playlists for different kinds of pasta, depending on their cooking time which I just found that very clever.
01:15:56
Yes, I did put that in my weekly digest. It's very funny.
01:16:00
Maybe that's where I discovered it, to be honest.
01:16:02
But yeah, I just thought that was like very funny a very resourceful, low investment kind of way to get a little bit of buzz, resume and recorded the interview and then realized that she was so eloquent in speaking about the way that she tailored all of the pieces that we lifted all of the clips, enhanced the sound, and that they ended up using that with a QR code on the shop floor and heard directly from the designer as to how the collection had been put together and that really created a very different shopping experience, which was interesting for an emerging brand in a very high quality environment.
01:16:54
I love that and can I just tell you as well an idea that I had that I was never able to gain approval on, but we talked about two of our favorite Frenchmen earlier in the conversation and during my tenure at NARS, again thinking about heroing out those shades that are such loyalty drivers for the brand, I had proposed that we actually implement audio on select product detail pages where Francois NARS could narrate, for example, a 15 to 45 second just like insight into his inspiration for the development of that product or the naming of that shade, and that wasn't something that we were able to move forward at the time, but I still think that that has. There's a lot of opportunity there for the right brand to integrate audio throughout the purchase journey in a compelling way.
01:17:43
Absolutely, and it's something that will stay with you because there's so much emotion and tone and you can learn so much about someone from their accent and everything. Absolutely, that's a really wonderful idea. So, before we go to my closing questions, I one of the things that we've touched on is what happens to legacy media, as we call it, so the newspapers, the magazines, the ones that we used to love. I remember I could not get anywhere in a train or a plane without getting on with a good 10 magazines or so, and I was wondering what place do you see taking the legacy media in the future?
01:18:28
That is a difficult question to answer because historically, my feeling is that legacy media has been very slow to adapt to digital channels and there are definitely publications that, for example, have very sophisticated and engaging content strategies that go far beyond the publication here in the US, for example, I feel Marie Claire is a good example of that. They have some really interesting newsletters that they've launched. They do a great job across social media. I think there are multiple podcast series, for example, where they leverage their editors essentially as hosts for very compelling conversations with industry experts, designers, brand founders.
01:19:26
So I think we do see some brands evolving, but I also think that you know I'll bring it back to AI for a moment and just say that there is an inherent interdependence between legacy media and AI platforms. You know, all of the leading AI platforms really need ongoing, relevant, current content with authority to use as training material, and that need doesn't necessarily go away, and so it does open up a really interesting, potentially fruitful path to monetization for media brands that take advantage of that.
01:19:52
I did not think about that. I really appreciate that you bring this up. I did mention to you before, in the email that I'd sent, that I wanted to read up about what happened over the last few days at South by Southwest, which I know that you've attended several times. I've never had the chance, although they are coming to London this year, which I'm hoping to go to.
01:20:14
You may go. Yeah, it's in June.
01:20:16
Yes, yes, it's in June, exactly yeah, and I was very amused by reading about Evan Shapiro, who offered a really radical idea in conversation, saying that the BBC needs a fortnight correspondent. And yeah, I know, but it sort of made sense somehow, the idea of saying that if the legacy media want to retain an audience, they're going to need to also move and be where the new audiences are. What do you think about this comment?
01:20:51
I'm not sure if I agree that the BBC needs a Fortnite correspondence, but I do like the provocative nature of the comment.
01:20:57
I think she would appreciate it.
01:20:59
Yeah, I mean, I will say that we're definitely living in an era of distributed content and the distributed brand, and it's not a BBC example, but we do see, for example, a lot of legacy media publishers who are embracing alternate channels to distribute news. So one of the best examples that I can think of off the top of my head is Bloomberg, which has not only, of course, all of its editorial content online, all of the expected sort of social platforms and distribution channels, but they also have a very vibrant community, for example, on Telegram, and I think that is very interesting, because Telegram and other sort of dark social channels like WhatsApp et cetera that's really a place where people are connecting not only in one-to-one but also in broader communities, and so they do have a very distinct content strategy where they are creating content specifically for that community on Telegram, and you can see that there is a distinct curatorial eye to the stories that are shared in that space, given the demographics of the platform, and then it is also a much more engaged discourse.
01:22:12
I will absolutely look it up. I was going to bring up my favorites, which is the Times in the UK for their iPad app. Their iPad app is so good, it's like having having the magazine and, if you enjoy reading the Sunday papers or the Saturday papers, as a Brit abroad, it is the only newspaper that has managed to recreate what you get in person in your hands, and I am waiting for more newspapers to do the same, because I think that reading T Magazine or any of the other supplements which are so rich in quality storytelling content and that's so important for brands as well as the paper themselves, and I think that it's a real mistake not to engage in creating something that replicates, let's say, the glossiest and most luxurious piece of what their content is offering.
01:23:06
I love that.
01:23:09
So let me take you to my closing questions, and I don't call them a quick fire round, because I like to let my guests sit and reflect. The first one is what is your favorite word? And by that I like to say a word that you could live with, perhaps tattoo on yourself?
01:23:31
So the great irony of this question and answer is that this word is tattooed on me.
01:23:36
It's actually tattooed on the back of my. You're my first guest who has a word tattooed that they want. Okay, what is it?
01:23:44
So the word is liberation, and for me that represents so much, I think, as a woman, as a woman in my 40s, as a woman who recently exited, for example, a very corporate environment. It really represents liberation from expectations all different kinds of expectations, including my own. It represents liberation from patriarchal and societal structures that don't necessarily serve us anymore. So that isn't a new tattoo. I've actually had that tattoo for at least 15 years but it's interesting because my relationship to it and what it means to me has evolved over that time.
01:24:26
Thank you so much for sharing that beautiful word. What does connection mean to you?
01:24:38
This is an interesting one as well. I think I am a consummate extrovert, and so to me, interpersonal connection is actually everything. I find that exchange of energy to be really invigorating and never exhausting, so it's something that I really prioritize, especially now as I'm entering my own solopreneur journey at least at this moment in my career of really making sure that I have not only these very meaningful sometimes virtual exchanges, but that I'm also allocating a good amount of time every week to in-person connection with people that I care about or people that I respect.
01:25:22
Thank you. Now, this is allegedly the hardest question what song best represents you?
01:25:31
I love this question and I felt like there were a couple of different directions that I could take it, but the one that I always come back to is Tom Petty, and I won't back down. Because I think that, because I think that resilience has been a very important through line in my life and in my career, and it's just a song that always reminds me no matter how many times you may fall down, just test yourself off and get back up.
01:26:05
Thank you, thank you. I must remind you that I curate a Spotify playlist of all of the answers to that question, so I'll send you the link. I love it. It's very eclectic. What is the sweetest thing that has ever happened to you?
01:26:23
hmm, this is a tough one answer. I had a hard time identifying one single moment that I would consider to be the sweetest thing, especially about living in New York City for more than 20 years, which I recently passed my 20-year anniversary is that it is very much a city of serendipitous encounters, and I think what's most interesting about that is that I don't even necessarily need to be in my neighborhood or in the neighborhood of a friend or a former colleague or an ex-boyfriend, and New York sometimes just has a very interesting way of bringing people together, and so that's happened to me multiple times in the time that I've been living here, and every time I'm just struck by how much magic those kinds of moments can hold.
01:27:25
Thank you. That's gorgeous, and I do see how, yeah, new York really does have that serendipitous energy to it. What is a secret superpower that you have? So that means something you haven't told us about already.
01:27:42
Hmm, for better or worse, one secret superpower is probably self-control. So, if anything, a lot of the work that I've done from a personal growth standpoint over the course of the past let's say five years it's actually been about letting go of a degree of control. But at the same time I do think, especially professionally speaking, that control and that discipline has been very beneficial to me over the course of my career. But at the same time I kind of want to balance that, I think, with a bit more openness and vulnerability, because you know, the difficulty about holding on to too much control is that it does make it very difficult at times for people to connect with you in a way that feels true and authentic.
01:28:32
Absolutely. I see that what's a favorite book that you can share with us?
01:28:40
So I'm a big reader and I'm usually balancing maybe three books at a time one fiction, one nonfiction and then one memoir. So I will say that from a nonfiction standpoint, michael Pollan's work has been really transformative for me, notably the Omnivore's Dilemma, which really changed my relationship to food, and we've talked about so much in this conversation, but we haven't necessarily talked about food. It's a space that I'm really passionate about. I'm a very avid home cook and I'm a big restaurant goer, and so Michael Pollan's work has been really interesting to me. And then, along the same lines, I will say I love a culinary memoir. So I've read many over the years from chefs like Eric Repair or Gabrielle Hamilton, and I always love that glimpse inside the mind of a chef and the inner workings of a restaurant.
01:29:35
Oh, that's very interesting. You're making me think of a book that a friend recommended to me, from a chef that was French but who grew up in Egypt in the 1950s and who then moved to New York, and it's the most beautiful story and it's interspersed with lots of recipes. I will find it and send you a copy. It's so lovely, I mean, it's very evocative. So I may not remember the name of the book, but, oh my God, I remember the images that came through my mind. It's, yeah, it's really special. I'll take some of those recommendations for my next reads. Thank you. Where is somewhere you visited that you felt really had an impact on who you are today?
01:30:23
This is also such a good question. So I am Italian in heritage and I will say that each time that I visit Italy, I do feel like there's a small part of me that feels like I am returning home, and so I have. I know you've lived in Italy, Anne, obviously, which was really inspirational to see you take that leap years ago, but I certainly have my own fantasy of buying a decaying villa for 50,000 euro, fully renovating it and having my own under the Tuscan sun moment.
01:30:57
Yeah, I'm still caressing that dream as well. Now, imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself. Now, imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself, what do you think is the most important advice that future you can give to present time? You, what do you?
01:31:16
need to hear. We talked a little bit about resilience in this conversation, and I think that if I could step into a future version of myself, the most important advice that she would give me is just that every high and low is essential. The winds feel incredible, but the challenges, the moments of self-doubt, the pivots, the setbacks, the failures that is actually where the real growth happens, and so, while it is important to remember well, it's difficult to remember in the moment. It is important to embrace them, because they're ultimately shaping you into exactly who you were meant to be.
01:32:02
She's very inspiring, thank you. That brings me to my last question what brings you happiness?
01:32:09
So I think my answer to this is probably twofold. And these days happiness definitely comes from a lot of the simplest things. I mean New York. We're coming out of what felt like a very long, very cold winter, and so a sunny spring day like the one we're having today is so incredibly invigorating.
01:32:29
You know me well and you know that I love animals, so spending time with my pets brings me a lot of happiness. I also volunteer regularly with animals and I foster cats locally and there's a lot of satisfaction that I derive from that. And then certainly a good meal, good conversation those really fill me up. But at the same time I am me and I love novelty. So I'm often happiest when I'm really experiencing something new. So that could be traveling to a new place, discovering an incredible boutique or restaurant, or immersing myself in a completely unfamiliar and sometimes uncomfortable environment. I think there's a lot of magic in those first-time experiences where everything feels full of possibility. So for me, I guess happiness is about the balance of appreciating those very small everyday joys while leaving room for the excitement of the unknown.
01:33:32
Thank you so much for sharing that, dina. Thank you so much for spending your time with me, for allowing me to ask you all of my questions. We did cover a lot. There were a lot of them. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your answers as well, and I'm actually excited to edit the episodes, because I think that I will go and check out some of the platforms and the new players and some of the other creators that you mentioned. It always feels good to have a conversation with you. I'm really excited for whatever you're going to be doing next and for seeing you sometime soon. If people want to connect with you, where should they try to find you?
01:34:13
Sure, so I think the best place is probably on Instagram, where my handle is Dina Fierro, and then you can also follow me, if you're so inclined, on Substack. My Substack is called Yet Another Substack, which is just a nod to the very crowded fashion ecosystem on platform.
01:34:31
That's brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time, and I wish you a wonderful rest of the day until we next speak.
01:34:39
Thank you, Anne, this was a wonderful conversation.
01:35:01
Thanks, take care. Anne Muhlethaler on LinkedIn. If you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes, or on Instagram, at underscore out of the clouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website outofthecloudscom. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the MetaView, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, conscious communication and the future of work. That's the MetaView with two Ts TheMetaViewcom. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds For this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe and take care.