In this episode of Out of the Clouds, host Anne Mühlethaler interviews Francesca Hogi, a TED speaker, host of the Dear Franny Podcast, and internationally recognized expert on dating and relationships. She's been featured in media outlets such as The Today Show, Marie Claire, The New York Times, Harper's Bazaar and The Huffington Post, and is the founder of The True Love Society, a community for people seeking deeper self and romantic love.
Anne and Francesca’s conversation begins with Francesca sharing her life story, revealing how she was a deeply romantic child who devoured her older sister's romance novels, foreshadowing her future career path. She was working as a corporate lawyer when she began her journey toward love coaching by blogging about dating. She then turned to matchmaking for several years before finding her true calling as a love coach.
Francesca tells Anne about her holistic approach to helping people find love. She also discusses some elements of her book, How to Find True Love: Unlock Your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships, in which she breaks down four key components for readers to establish the foundations for a true love relationship: mindset, heartset, soulset, and skillset. Francesca challenges the conventional hierarchies of love, explaining how we tend to put romantic love up on this pedestal, thinking of it as the pinnacle and then assuming failure if we don’t find it in our lives. Instead, she advocates for adapting our intentions to have love through all parts of our lives.
Then Anne and Francesca delve into the realities of modern dating, particularly the evolution and impact of dating apps. Francesca pointedly reminds listeners that "swiping on a dating app is not dating — going on dates is dating," and emphasises the importance of "developing the skills — because it is all skill — to be able to meet people more organically as they live their lives."
Francesca explains what she asks her clients (and readers of her book) to develop more self-awareness, like: "What do I actually believe about myself when it comes to love?" and "In the love story of your life, what is the role that you play?" She highlights how many people hold beliefs about themselves and their romantic possibilities that are not truly in alignment with what they want, and these questions guide us back to our focus.
Their conversation turns to exploring the deeper spiritual dimensions of finding love through what Francesca calls one’s soulset: considering faith and connection to a higher power. She adds that serendipity, for example, is something that you can court intentionally, and how practicing gratitude makes you more aligned with love. She offers that having that soul-level connection and understanding our romantic energy is essential because while often we understand mind,emotion, and action, we tend to misunderstand energy.
To conclude, Anne asks her favourite questions, which has Francesca share her grounding practices, in particular her daily morning and evening journaling sessions, and her love of walking in any weather.
A warm, insightful, and empowering conversation that challenges conventional wisdom about modern love and offers a refreshing perspective on how to center love in all aspects of life.
Happy listening!
Selected links from episode
Out of the Clouds website: https://outoftheclouds.com/
Out of the Clouds on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_outoftheclouds
The Mettā View website: https://avm.consulting/metta-view
Anne on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annvi/
Anne on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@annvi
Anne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-v-muhlethaler/
Find more about Francesca at FrancescaHogi.com
Her book, "How to Find True Love: Unlock Your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships"
How to date with intention, Francesca’s online course
Francesca’s True Love Society on Patreon
Find Francesca on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dearfranny
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dearfranny
On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DearFranny
Follow Francesca’s podcast Dear Franny on Instagram
Or subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts
Selected links from episode:
The princess industrial complex
The Love Inside, a book by Jessica Faith Graham
U2 I still haven’t found what I’m looking for
The book The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer
00:05
Hi, hello, bonjour and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I'm your host, anne Muhlethaler. Hey, hey, hey, I'm so happy to be back. It has been a few weeks since my last episode, the interview with the wonderful Sari Azout, which, if you haven't heard, please make this your next podcast. Listen coaster.
00:49
In the last four weeks, I have managed to relaunch my main business, which you may not know about, called avm. It was called avm consulting. It now is called le trot, which in French means the number 30. There's plenty of stories behind the naming and you can look in the show notes if you'd like to discover more about that. So, yes, it's been intense and, despite the fact that I have several wonderful interviews up my sleeve, I haven't had a chance to finish up the episodes. And so here we are, here we are. So I'm delighted today to be introducing you to Francesca Hogi. She's known by many as Dear Franny, as it's her nickname, and it's also in the name of her podcast.
01:32
Francesca is a love coach and a dating expert. She helps people find true love, both inside and out. She's a TED speaker and I had the pleasure to see her on stage in Vancouver in 2023 and she is just about to release her first book how to Find True Love, unlock your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships. So in the book, which we discussed at length, she distills her years of expertise into actionable guidance. So over the course of our conversation, we cover Francesca's journey. We talk about her early personality and how she devoured her sister's trashy romance novels at the very young age of nine or ten, how she always had a very strong head on her shoulders and how she went through life not quite knowing what she wanted to do, but marking still an arc of connection to love and romance, as she started to blog in 2007 and then became a matchmaker following her corporate lawyer career. In the book, as well as the TED Talk, Francesca challenges what she calls the fairytale industrial complex.
02:57
We talk about how to bring more love into our lives, starting with changing mindset. She tells me about heart-centered practices, which speaks to me a lot as a loving, kindness teacher, before talking to me about soul set and skill set, meaning our connection to faith, to a higher power, but also in the real connection that we can find in trusting gratitude, connecting to abundance as well as serendipity and our own intention. We talk about what modern dating looks like because, of course, when she started as a matchmaker, the apps looked very different. What can we do in this day and age to advance on our true love journey, to find the right match? That's the topic of the conversation, and you'll see that Francesca really is making it her mission. She could not be more passionate about bringing people the right questions, the right reflections and the right skill sets so that they can become their own matchmaker. So, without further ado, I give you my insightful conversation with Francesca Hoagie. Happy listening, francesca, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Out of the Clouds.
04:22
Thank you so much for having me, Anne. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
04:26
Yeah, me too, actually, because I've been listening to some of your interviews on other podcasts and your own podcast. There's this strange feeling that I know you really well already. So if at any point I start to ask questions and it sounds like I'm your BFF, I apologize. You are, I've spent so much time with you.
04:49
It's all good. We are truly friends.
04:52
Yeah, and I heard you say somewhere else that it's kind of funny because your podcast is called Dear Franny. Do you find people go to your nickname immediately when they?
05:00
meet you. Sometimes, you know, it really depends. It's one of those things. I mean, I've been called Franny my whole life and usually if people meet me through friends they will kind of immediately call me Franny. So I think it's similar, Like sometimes people meet and they're like oh my God, you're dear Franny. Hi, that's fun.
05:23
As you may already know, I love to start the podcast by asking my guests to tell me their story, and the reason why I like to start there is to go for a more holistic view of who we are, because I think that we often go more directly to what we do, and I'd love to find out about who Franny was as a kid or as a teenager, what you wanted to be as you were growing up, and anything that you feel like sharing. I know it's a big ask, but so would you tell us your story?
05:53
No, it's great. I much prefer this question. So what do you do? I hate when you meet people and that's the first thing they ask you. I'm like I do a lot of things, a walk, I live.
06:04
But yeah, my story, I mean, I definitely grew up with no clear idea of what, I quote wanted to be. When I grew up, I really hated when adults would ask me that question Because it was like it was very blank. I really didn't know. But I had a very strong sense of who I was my whole life. So as a kid I was, I was outspoken, I was curious, I was impervious to bullies.
06:35
I was like like I was very self-possessed, what they used to call a precocious child. I don't know if they really use that term anymore, if you can think of a kid who was very people pleasing and wanted everybody to like them. That wasn't me, which it's not to say that I didn't have friends. I was actually always very social. I was a good kid. I had great parents and my mom is still alive, thankfully, but my parents were. If there was a rule that they had and I'm like, oh, this makes sense, like no problem, like I will totally follow that rule. But if there's a rule that I'm like, I see why you have that rule, but like no, I totally disagree with it. I was less inclined.
07:16
You really had your own mind. It sounds very precocious, right, you weren't taking rules. Oh, that's sort of interesting, given what you do now. You weren't taking rules. Oh, that's sort of interesting, given what you do now. You weren't taking the rules, just for what they were.
07:30
Yes, yes, and I was also a very romantic child. You know, I grew up just really loving love stories and I was reading romance novels by the time I was like 10 years old. They were like way too old for me, by the way, oh my. But I had an older sister my sister's 12 years older than me. So she had all of these books that were like I think we would call them like trashy romance novels. And I remember I picked one up one day and I was reading it and my mom saw me and she was like you're too young for that book. And I was like, okay, and then I read all of them. I was like, okay, that's my cue to read every single one of these books, every kind of these books that I can find, and that's what I did.
08:18
So I always had a very strong interest in romantic love and I was very lucky to have parents who really loved each other and they showed each other that every day. So I had a very strong example of like what it means to be in like a happy, committed partnership. Not perfect, of course, because nothing is perfect, but I, yeah. So I grew up really knowing that I wanted love and knowing that I wanted adventure, knowing that I didn't want what I called an ordinary life, just like working a job that maybe you didn't like it so much, but it's what paid the bills, and you went on vacation a couple of weeks out of the year and that was your life. I was like no, I don't want that. I want to have more fun than that.
08:59
How old were you when you formed this idea?
09:05
That's a good question. I mean, I have I my best friend. We've been friends since I was 13. And and she says that I always said that. So at least by the time I was 13, I knew that yeah.
09:19
That's amazing Okay.
09:21
I was young. Yeah, I was very like early bloomer in some ways and then a very late bloomer in other ways.
09:29
Yeah, how did the boys at school or around you match your expectations, given your romance novels?
09:37
Oh man, they were so disappointing, you know, in elementary school. So up until sixth grade, when I was like 11 years old, I had really big crushes, but none of the boys that I liked liked me Right, and so I definitely had an insecurity of, oh no, everybody I like doesn't like me. Is this going to be a problem? And then when I got to seventh grade, I started having very close friendships with boys and I started having boys that had crushes on me and I had my first boyfriend when I was 13, actually in eighth grade, and we were over the top. I love you. We used to talk about getting married. It was so extra and frankly it was too much for me. It was too much too soon. So I had that experience and then I just sort of avoided romance for a long time, actually for years.
10:43
So back to just having crushes and not really having relationships for years? Yeah, so you had this very strong mind and not obeying by rules unless you found them to solidly make sense in your life. What did you think you were going to be as a grownup? Did you have any romantic career ideas for yourself?
11:01
No, I definitely didn't. The closest idea that I had. When I went to university I didn't know what I was going to major in. So I just went through the course catalog and I just said, okay, I'm just going to take classes that sound interesting to me. And so the classes that sounded the most interesting to me were all sociology classes. So I started as a sociology major, right, and I was taking all sorts of classes like about, like education and serial killers and everything.
11:31
Again, I can see your relationship to your work now.
11:35
I'm like, ooh, society, like people, they're so interesting. And then I discovered communications and I loved communications. So I actually was a dual major in both sociology and communications, specifically TV and film. When I graduated from college, I had the idea that I would make movies. That was my original plan and my first job out of college was actually working on a movie. I was a production assistant and it was a really bad experience. This was like the nineties and the movie industry was just so misogynistic and abusive and just it was not good. So I was like, hmm, well, this isn't going to work because I'm not going to put up with this treatment. So I kind of then went into this like, oh no, well, this was the plan. I was going to go, like work on movies. And now what do I do?
12:28
So I was kind of just flailing for a bit, working at a children's museum, like just trying to figure it out, and a lot of people were just saying to me well, you're really smart and you should think about going to law school. And I was like, oh okay, maybe you know. And people said you can do anything with a law degree. So you know, you should think about going to law school. So I decided to go to law school, and I didn't go to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer. I wish that I had a better reason for going to law school Then. I didn't really know what else to do, but that's the reason. It's actually interesting, though, because after I graduated law school and I found myself as a young lawyer working at a big firm in New York City, which is my hometown, I realized I want to have relationships, I want to date, I want to have a boyfriend, and I don't really know how to make that happen, so I need to figure this out. So I embarked on this journey to like teach myself how to date, and so I signed up for matchcom.
13:25
This is many years before dating apps and you know, and back then, on online dating sites, it was very much about you hope nobody that you know sees you. You just want to meet someone as quickly as possible, and then just get off and then lie about how you met. Like that was like the big joke back then, but I realized that I actually needed experience dating, so I really took it as an opportunity to go on a lot of dates and just learn a lot about myself and like how to date and what compatibility looks like and how to flirt and how to you know, okay, I get one date. How do I get a second date Right? Like, how do I say no when I don't want a second date?
14:02
There's so many things that come up in dating that I was intentionally just immersing myself in as a way of learning, because I was like I want this great love, that I yeah. So I actually started a dating advice blog back when I was still practicing law years ago, which was just something that I did for fun, because I had learned a lot about dating and I saw a lot of other people who were struggling with things that I used to struggle with and I felt like, okay, this is fun for me, talking about this is fun for me. And actually a friend of mine had invited me to be a contributor to her blog and she had originally said oh, you could like write about the law. And I was like, okay, I'm not writing about the law in my spare time.
14:50
Yeah, it's not quite the same passion project as it is.
14:53
I was like I am not and she's like, oh well, you can write about whatever you want. And I thought about it. I was like, well, the only thing I really think I would enjoy writing about about is dating. And that was my first foray into my professional love career. However, I didn't think of it that way at all at the time. I just thought this is just a fun thing that I get to do.
15:14
It's so fascinating to see how early interests can sort of pave the way and really show the arrow right, the direction that your life is going to take you. Did you find any enjoyment to practicing law while you were dating, or was it just like the thing you did on the side of practicing yeah?
15:36
What I did always appreciate about being a lawyer was I did really like the client service aspect of it. There was always something that was very satisfying to me about a client needing something done and then being able to deliver that and having them be like, yes, this is what I needed, I always found very gratifying. So I knew that I didn't want to practice law forever, but I didn't know what else I wanted to do. I'm skipping over this whole five years that I took off from the law to move to Los Angeles to actually then decide to pursue a movie career from the producing side, and so I had a whole stint in that independent producer Hollywood world and again I came out of that like I just don't like this industry. I just don't like I love movies and I just cannot deal with these people. So after that I was really like, oh no, well, that was the only dream that I had. Now what do I do?
16:38
So I found myself back practicing law again, cause I didn't know what else to do again, and but that was when I was really like, okay, I need to. This is not. I know this is not the worst job in the world, but this is also not what I'm on this planet to do and I need to figure. I don't know what that is, but I need to figure it out. So when I was in this process of figuring it out, you might think of me like well, you like writing about dating, maybe there's something there.
17:06
I did not think that I wish I could be, like, well, I'm gonna. It wasn't that simple, but what I did realize was I knew that I wanted to work with people individually on something that was very important. So I wanted to have that client service aspect, but I wanted it to be something that was really meaningful to people. It was a while before I started to put all the pieces together and it was like oh wait actually. But also now it's not unusual to meet a love coach or a matchmaker, but I mean, I'm 50.
17:39
So it depends where you are in the world, because you're definitely the first love coach I've ever heard of.
17:44
Oh, really Okay, okay, okay.
17:46
I mean, europe is a bit like just the word coach in Europe. You think of a football coach, you know, or a tennis coach? In my case, we don't know any other kind of coaches. Now there's life coaches, including myself, but you know, communication coaches are coming up. Maybe there's another name for it in different countries as well.
18:05
But when you think about how we, as human, hire experts to help us in so many other areas of our lives, it makes sense right To have someone to help us with this most essential part of our human journey.
18:23
Yes, I totally agree, and I think it is a problem that, in general, people are not taught about love, they're not taught about relationships. They're not taught about dating. It's the most important thing in life. That we're basically told to leave to chance and just hope it works out. That's a very dubious strategy. So well you know. So, just as you're saying, I'm the first love coach you met. I think I actually had met one love coach before one became one, before I got into the industry, but it was like oh my God, I didn't know such a thing existed. So it's not like growing up in the eighties I was like I'm going to like help people with love one day, like that would have just been such a foreign concept, other than like understanding that matchmaking was a tradition, like Fiddler on the Roof.
19:10
You know Exactly.
19:14
You know, matchmaker, matchmaker like I understood that was a tradition, but it never entered my mind as something relevant to me. And it wasn't until I one day was at a barbecue and I was talking to a woman and she mentioned that there was a black male matchmaker that she followed on Twitter and I was like I'm sorry, what there is. Who's this person? I had never heard of such a thing and I started following him and he's somebody who'd had an MBA. He had been an investment baker and he left that to start a matchmaking agency. And he was really smart and he was really very committed to really helping people to get into healthy relationships.
19:55
And I was like my God, this is so awesome. Like I can't believe this is his job, like how cool is this? And one day he tweeted that he was going to be speaking at the Matchmaking Institute conference in New York and I was like I'm sorry, there's a Matchmaking Institute, they have conferences, right, and it's in New York. Like I'm in New York, I'm going to go. And so I went and I met all these people who were just regular people, but it was their job to help people get into great relationships and I was like what could be more satisfying than this. And so I decided right away okay, this is what I'm doing. And I went on Facebook and I updated my status and I said hey, everybody, I'm a matchmaker. Now send me your singles and everyone's like what.
20:51
That's incredible. Yeah, I know everyone went what, what did you? What is the wildest thing you heard your friends say when you announced this?
20:58
well, I have great friends. They're very supportive. Most people in my life. At that point they were like I'm sure you're going to figure this out, because they just knew that I was a person who just went for things. And so they were like really Okay, I'm behind you all the way, like go, franny. That's amazing.
21:16
But I did have one friend who, interestingly, is a friend who, long before this was my career, I actually introduced her to her now husband. They've been married for years, they have three kids and she's the only person who's told me she didn't think it was a good idea. Huh, and that's so strange, isn't that so strange? Yeah, look, she has a much more conservative approach to her life. So I wasn't insulted by it. I mean, I think she really just took it as like you're a lawyer, you're going to throw it Like. It just seemed so outlandish to her and I was in a relationship at the time but it wasn't like I was with my forever partner. So she also felt like, oh well, you know, can you help other people? And like you don't. You haven't really found that person. And that was her perspective and I understood it. I just didn't let that impact me. I said I understand how you, why you feel that way, but don't worry, it's all going to be fine.
22:15
I'm super happy that you were able to put that on the side, because it's true, when you follow a non-linear career or you make a really big pivot, it can be hard, because it does impact our loved ones, Our own sense of identity and who we are. It does impact other people too, so it's interesting how that plays out. I love the idea that you had this amazing model, this guy who was an MBA investment banker that turned matchmaker and then you discovered that world. What was it like for you when you started working with people? Was it? Did it excuse me for the pun? Did it match your expectations?
22:57
No, that's a great question. And no, it did not match my expectations, because I had. I was very naive at the beginning of my love career. Admittedly, I was naive in the sense that I really felt like, okay, if somebody is motivated enough to hire a matchmaker, that means that they are really ready for love, like they are ready to be vulnerable, they are ready to focus on what's important, you know, they are ready to really show up with authenticity and seek out people who are doing the same. That's going to be great. You know, those are going to be amazing easy people to match. But what I discovered instead was that a lot of people just came with such unrealistic expectations and such a fantasy mindset around relationships and they were really looking at matchmaking as this magic bullet Like now I don't have to compromise, now I don't have to look at my own actions, now that I'm paying someone else, I can just outsource this whole process and I can just have, you know, perfect people, gift wrapped and delivered right to my front door. And that's not how relationships work.
24:12
You're not purchasing a house. This is a human being.
24:14
It is exactly exactly. I have worked with people who the list that they have given of what their requirements are. It is really like they're building a custom house, you know. It's like, and I want this room to have these windows and I want this shade on this wall and I want this flooring here and I want, like it's so specific. And I would have to ask people like because I just started asking people like, okay, well, tell me when's the last time you dated somebody who met this general description? And they say, well, I never have. And I say, okay, well, when's the last time you met somebody you know who fits this general description? Right? And they'd be like, oh well, there was this one person and dah, dah, dah, and he was so amazing. Or then I'm like, I'm like, okay, did you have a relationship with them? No, I'm like okay, so you don't actually know. So I was just trying to get people to see I still exist in the same world and the same reality as you do. I don't have a magical factory where I can just create the perfect person and you don't have to do anything differently. And I actually.
25:15
So that matchmaker who inspired me, I actually went to work for him as his lead matchmaker, and I started my own matchmaking business at the same time. So I was working with these two sets of clients and he had a much larger profile, so he had a lot of people who were coming. You know, he's very like good looking and tall and all these things and so a lot of women hired his agency because they basically wanted him. They're like, find me him right. Those were difficult clients to work with because the their expectations were so skewed. It became very apparent very quickly that the only people that we could match were the people who didn't have these unrealistic expectations, the people who were actually willing to like look at themselves and look at their own patterns and what they were valuing and how they were showing up Like.
26:05
A quick example of this is as a matchmaker, I used to get feedback from not only my clients but also from the dates that I set them up with right. So if I set you up with somebody after the date, I would hear from you, but I would also talk to the person I set you up with Right and so I would get this feedback and there would be oftentimes patterns right Like I would get the same feedback or very similar feedback from multiple people. And there's some clients who, when I would present this to them, they were like, oh, that's just them, like you know. Like say something basic, like you know. Oh, they were rude to the waiter, for instance, right, and we're like, oh, that's, I wasn't rude, that's just them, like you know very dismissive of that Right Versus some people would be like, oh, my God, I was rude, I'm so embarrassed I think I was stressed start to bring some more self-awareness and have a little bit more understanding of how they're being perceived and what role they're playing in the dynamic that's being co-created.
27:08
Those are the people that we could match. And the people who were just like I just want what I want, and they weren't willing to look at themselves, they were really difficult to work with, frankly, and they were nearly impossible to match. And because matchmaking is about making introductions but being introduced is not enough, it's really the people who are looking to come to a whole new level of agency within themselves and how they build relationships. That's the factor that's reliably getting people into relationships. And so I realized it was the coaching and so I was like, okay, well, I can just stop doing this matchmaking thing which is taking years off of my life anyway, because it's so stressful, sure.
27:49
I can just about imagine it must be very difficult to listen to people who refuse to hear any kind of feedback and are adamant that they deserve the house.
28:01
Yes, exactly, it's, yes, exactly. It is very difficult, and for that reason I stopped matchmaking, and so for the past really nine or 10 years, I've exclusively been coaching. So I don't make the introductions, but, as I put it, I coach people to be their own matchmaker. And so the book you know how to Find True Love is about what I have learned over not only my lifetime, but just over this 12 years that it's been my, as I call it, my bill paying job, paying job. You know, when you have a dating advice blog and you're just giving advice and you're not making any money from it and whatever, it's great, but then this is actually how I pay my bills I got to go to another level of understanding here.
28:55
I wrote myself a little note in red because I didn't want to forget. So she see, see me pop my head down. That's what I'm doing. And I was like did you go back to the blog when you started writing the book?
29:05
Oh no, oh, I didn't. It was just so long ago. I mean, I started that blog in 2008. So it was 17 years ago. Yeah, it was a long time ago and and also this is part of, like, my evolution from starting with advice and then going to making introductions and then becoming a coach. That's been the real work and the real learnings. Right, but at the beginning, first of all, dating culture was very different.
29:35
Yeah.
29:36
Then that it is now.
29:37
Crikey. That's like a whole different ballgame.
29:39
Whole different ballgame. It just so happens that the year that I became a matchmaker is also the year that Tinder launched in the US.
29:47
right, Happy anniversary Right.
29:52
And so I had this front row seat to dating when I was doing it very actively and like in this real learning phase, pre-tinder, and then I became my job and then I've seen how drastically dating culture has changed over the last 12 years.
30:09
At the beginning of my career I was giving very tactical advice about things like oh, here's the photos you need to use and here's the kind of thing to say, and tactics only get you so far.
30:22
So as I became a coach and I was like, oh wait, this is way deeper, there's a lot more going on here. But I really committed myself because I was like, okay, this is an impossible task that I have that I have set for myself so clearly I like a challenge. But I felt very, very committed to this idea that I wanted to get knowledgeable enough about this whole process of finding and keeping love that I could help a lot of other people get there. So this book is the culmination of years of having that intention and just being so driven to get the answers Like why is it easy for Anne but it's so hard for Susan? What is it that Paul believes about himself that makes him very open and magnetic to connection, versus what Bob believes that's actually shutting him down, and how do I help Bob to open up and how do I like? I've just been really fixated on these questions for a really long time.
31:31
That's amazing. When I was hearing you talk about tactics it reminded me that often because I'm a coach as well, but in a different arena though it's in communication, so not far away. But I remember and I noticed in myself when I first started to coach how I would stay at the surface level, so very tactical, very about accountability, making sure they do X, y, z and not daring actually look at the deeper.
32:01
well, because generally when you start working with someone you can tell when there's a big problem right as a coach it can feel a little bit intimidating of saying, okay, I feel, letting the person know on the other side, I can tell that you've got a lot of fear around this. Is this something that you'd like to explore together and actually diving in with them? Because in what you do, I must imagine that you encounter some deep difficulties and a lot of limiting beliefs and things that must go back all the way to childhood, and it's not for the faint of heart, I imagine, to decide to get and to commit to working with you on the coaching journey.
32:51
Yeah, yes, everything you just said I can relate to and it's absolutely true. And it's not for the faint of heart, you know, for us as coaches, to take on that role of helping people to uncover those deeper layers of things, and it's not for the faint of heart to be willing to look at it. I mean, I'm not a therapist, right, like I, so I and I have no interest in being a therapist, right? I hear you, we know what you're fixated on. Bless the therapist of the world, but, like, that is not my ministry.
33:25
But there is a therapeutic aspect in that. You need to understand psychology, you need to understand the role of limiting beliefs, you need to understand the power of self-identity and self-belief. There are things that you need to understand, but for me, because romantic love is something that is so triggering, because it is so deeply personal, it's deeply, deeply rooted, and so that was part of what I've been really navigating is giving people tools to address those deeper layers, but also not getting stuck there, because ultimately, I am a coach and you know, as coaches, we're about moving our clients forward, right, it's not about let's talk about the past for months. It's about actually you have goals that you want to achieve in your business, in your relationships right, and that's what we're helping them to do. But I think what it's all done has pushed me to be very thoughtful about how do I develop tools and frameworks that can help people to address these deeper issues, while also moving them along and keeping them inspired and motivated and clear on what the path is forward.
34:36
That's how I navigate that, and I would never want anybody to think that like, oh God, I've got a session with Francesca. Like, oh, this is going to suck. You know what I mean. So you know. Generally speaking, I do think that one of my strengths is like I can help people to release some of the burden and some of the shame and some of the heaviness. My clients often can laugh at themselves and even if something difficult does happen, we can go through that, they can process it and they can come out the other side. So I enjoy what I do and I try to make everything you know at least a little bit fun.
35:12
Yeah, I think you managed that, at least in the book. But before we get into the book actually it's sort of an introduction into the book I noticed that in one of your LinkedIn posts, as well as the entry to the book, you share a brief history of dating, which, by the way, totally made me chuckle because you know, and I still felt surprised. Nonetheless, would you touch on this for our listeners?
35:39
Yeah, absolutely so. I always like to give a bit of historical context which might sound like a weird thing for a love coach to say A lot of things.
35:52
It made me chuckle that in the introduction to the book, that the timeline starts 13.8 billion years ago. It just makes me so happy. I'm like. I liked it. I liked it a lot, thank you. I'm like we need context here, people. But but basically what? The reason that I like to give people that history is because we don't.
36:14
When you feel confused about something, it is very difficult to feel confident and it is very difficult to know what to do and to understand you know why this is happening or why things are set up in this way. And when it comes to romantic partnership, we have so many societal narratives about love and like how it's supposed to happen and what it's supposed to look like and who's supposed to get it, and then you're supposed to have it by this age and you're supposed to like all of these milestones. And I just need people to understand the context in which all of that came to be and particularly to understand that dating right as an activity that we do, which is about us individually going out into the world and saying I'm going to find my partner, I'm going to find my spouse, I'm going to find the person to meet with and that's my, that's something that I am doing, I am choosing. That is something that we've only been doing for about a hundred years, and people need to understand that, because there's this idea like people be like, oh you know, I just want it to be the way it used to be. Or like, like people romanticize this golden era where everybody had the love of their life, and I'm like, what are you talking about? This is the best time ever in history actually to form relationships.
37:29
If you want true love, you've never had a better opportunity to reliably make that happen than now, because the number of societal constraints that we have had over who you married and when you got married, that has been human history. So this is an experiment that we're in this new era of like, oh, I get to decide for myself. It's brand new, it's ever unfolding, and so if you're wondering, like, why is this not working out? Simply one, two, three, it's like, because why would it?
38:01
This is 150,000 years of human existence. We did things in a very different way than how we're doing them now, right, and there has been so much rapid change. We touched on like with dating apps and online dating and like all of this is. It's all still emerging, and so I just like people to have that context to understand. Oh, no wonder there isn't a simple answer here. I think, ultimately, it's what's great about being alive and I tell this to single people all the time I'm like there's literally never been a better time in human history to be single, and even if you want a partnership, that still applies.
38:42
No, you're right, and it's. I mean. It remains not the best to be single in some countries. There are societies around the world that still don't make it easy for either men or women to be single. I love that reframe. It feels really good when I hear you say it like that, for sure.
39:00
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. There are definitely societies and cultures like yes, in other countries, but even here in the US, there's plenty of people, and I see this. I have some clients who I've worked with who the pressure that they have from their family and from their communities is tremendous. And then I have other clients where it's like, oh, nobody's pressuring me, like nobody, you know, like this is totally I'm putting the pressure on myself. But so there is still a lot of that societal, familial, community, cultural expectation that's at play.
39:34
Certainly, and certainly more so in some countries around the world than others, particularly that's how it's tied to like gender rights and all sorts of things. Right, do you live in a place where, if you're gay, you're free to be gay? That's not the case every place in the world, right, but for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in a place where we do have more freedom of choice, this is absolutely the best time, and even if not, it's still the best time because you can start to see oh wait, there's enough. Even if I can't do it here, there's other possibilities that exist. Right, versus, maybe like 100 years ago or 200 years ago if you were a gay 14-year-old girl in Korea or the United States or India or like? What model is there for you to ever have the love of your?
40:22
life. Yeah, tell me about that. But I think this is the perfect point to bridge to an important theme in your book and what you talk about, which was the main theme of your TED Talk and we'll touch on that too which is the fairytale industrial complex. Yeah, so first of all, you had me at fairytale industrial complex, which is one Fairytale Industrial Complex. Yeah, first of all, you had me at Fairytale Industrial Complex, which is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you A very intriguing title. I was at TED in Vancouver on the day, so we met briefly in the restroom you probably don't remember that, but of course, we met in Paris. Yes, your friend Felicity, and I love you, ted Social. So I'd like to have you explain how did you come to this concept of the fairytale industrial complex and why does it matter that we think about this?
41:18
Yeah, such a good question that we think about this. Yeah, such a good question. Well, I was inspired by the term the princess industrial complex. Have you ever heard of that? Have you heard that used? Right?
41:28
Okay, so for anybody who's listening, who hasn't that's basically about, like the Disney princess sort of model and marketing and how it has to do with, like the pinkification of girls and our Western culture. There is for a long time and there still is, this like gender reveal trend, right, and it's like a second you find out it's going to be a girl, she's a princess, right, and everything has to be pink, and just this idea of always pushing this princess, princess, princess ideal and framework onto girls in our culture. So that's the princess industrial complex, and when I heard about that, at that point I was already this was already my job to help people and I could see particularly I saw this very quickly as a matchmaker how much fantasy very smart, very educated, very adult people have about how relationships and how love is supposed to work, and it's literally like the fairy tales that we've been indoctrinated on our whole lives. It starts with the actual fairy tales and the Disney movies and then it's the romantic comedies, which is just another version of that fairy tale story, and it just became clear what a actual impediment this was to so many people actually having relationships. Because they're like, well, you know, I know when I know, and I'm supposed to know immediately, and they take immediate chemistry, that's the sign that this person is meant to be the one. And if you're attracted to somebody, that matters more than how they treat you Right, and especially this idea that women are chosen, that men do the picking and women are the ones who are like we have to be pretty enough and smart enough and cute enough, but not too much, and we can't scare them off and all of that. That is all part of what happens, I believe, in my opinion, as a result of this whole fairy tale mindset and mythology, and particularly how it tells us that romantic love is something that's supposed to be effortless, it's supposed to be a fantasy.
43:28
When you're chosen by the right person and you get the diamond ring and you have the fairy tale wedding, that's the end of the story, literally, you're supposed to then live happily ever after, no more pain, no more sadness, no more loneliness, like happily ever after. And even though we all know logically that's not how relationships work. It does not stop many people who quote, quote, know better, you know from actually still approaching their romantic life through that lens. So I like to talk about it because it is so ubiquitous and this idea of love as a fantasy is used to sell us so many things Like Valentine's Day was just recently, right, that's a multi-billion dollar holiday in the US, right, and I know very few people who are genuinely excited about Valentine's Day, whether they're in relationships or not. Right, where they feel this pressure oh, it's Valentine's Day, so I've got to plan this thing and I've got to buy flowers and I love romance. Okay, I'm not saying like, don't do those things if that speaks to you, but the idea that what started as a greeting card holiday, now people actually base their relationship choices on that, you know. Like the same thing with diamond rings People, many people if you talk to them about, like, oh, the tradition of diamond engagement rings, they think this is like a thousands year old tradition and it's not.
44:57
It's not even a hundred years old, because it was in 1948 that De Beers, which is the world's biggest diamond cartel, had all of these diamonds and they were like people don't buy diamonds. How can we get people to buy diamonds? And they engaged an advertising agency and actually it was a woman copywriter who came up with the tagline a diamond is forever and this idea to market diamonds as a symbol of love, to sell diamond engagement rings, incredibly brilliant, successful campaign. So if you like diamonds and you like diamond engagement rings, that's fine and that's great. But also understand that there are people who literally make their choice about who they marry based on whether or not a person buys them. Quote the right ring.
45:48
I remember hearing you talk about this with your survivor friend, whose name I forgot, and she was mentioning that she's married to a French man and when she came to Europe she realized that there's a lot less pressure. The whole three months wages should be the cost of the ring. That does not apply here, because I guess that De Beers was not as invested in our media at the time. We're a smaller market, we're multiple languages. It's harder to sell to us maybe, but it's true that it's shocking to what extent there has been manufacturing around one of the most important areas of our lives, which is how we get paired up and perhaps even get married. But there's one part of your talk that I highlighted because it really spoke to me and it gives me a little bit of shivers when I see it, because I thought there was such a wonderful line. You said the more we cultivate the love within, the better it is for everyone, and that's because how we each individually approach love contributes to how we all collectively experience it. Yes, yeah, can you tell?
47:07
me more about this.
47:09
Yeah. So what I mean by that and actually this kind of dovetails back to why I like to give people like this historical context of dating, which is that our culture, our romantic culture, our dating culture, it's not just something out there, that is a default setting that just exists and we have to adapt to it, right? We are all co-creating it, right? All of us, all of us. So, the more that each individual person starts to see themselves as responsible for love, as abundant in love, as their own portal to love, as love is something that they're meant to be growing in, if everyone believed that, I think it's safe to say it would look a lot better than it does, right now.
48:03
If everyone truly was able to experience loving themselves and believing that they were truly worthy of love, right, if we all believe that we were worthy of love just as we are and we don't need to have all of these other things to be good enough, how would that change the world? It sound very like naive or idealistic, but I mean this in a very practical, tangible way. Like just imagine, right, if everyone thought that it was important for people to have healthy relationships. Just imagine if that was a default setting that everyone in the world believed, then how would that change schooling? How would that change the workplace? How would that change how families and communities interact with each other? So that's what I mean.
48:52
It's like we have to all see our connectedness here, because the more that we can spread more empowering messages, more uplifting messages, the more inclusive messages around love, then the more that's going to change individual people's behavior. But there is a tipping point where now it's far more than the individual. It's like, oh, there's been a collective shift in how we approach love and relationships, and so that's what I want so much, anne.
49:23
I really feel it, and I feel the depth of caring that you have, not just for your single clients, but the bigger hope that you have for us. And I have to tell you one of the things that spoke to me as well. I think I would have picked up on that line regardless, but I'm currently working with a wonderful mother of three who's recently divorced, who wrote her first children's book and it's called the Love Inside and it's all to help children cultivate this sense that they are abundant, that they are their own source of love. And when I read this and I thought of her, I was like I need to make a connection between the two of you because, I don't know, maybe there's something or a discussion that could be had.
50:07
Yeah, oh my God, that sounds amazing.
50:10
She only came to write this book because she realized that she hadn't been taking care of herself or addressing perhaps a sense of self-love for a long time. And I have a stake in this too, because I teach loving kindness meditation, which has the word loving it, so it's hard to sell it to a lot of people.
50:30
It should be the easiest sell in the world. It should be. It really should be.
50:34
But it's true that really regularly I mean I teach online on Insight Timer. That really regularly I mean I teach online on Insight Timer and it's interesting because not everybody wants to participate right when it's online and add things to the chat etc. Which I totally understand because I'm the reserved kind. But I cannot help but notice the few times when I have people who do admit that they absolutely cannot send loving kindness to themselves or they feel so stunted in their own self-love that they cannot extend it to anyone. So I think that there is a lot of work that we have to do there definitely is yeah, and honestly I mean I think the work that you're doing is important.
51:17
You know, this book sounds amazing. That's important. There's so many different avenues to approach how to teach and help people to be more loving and have a deeper understanding of love, and it's all necessary, right, I've been very focused on romantic love, but I mean honestly, because it just makes sense just for who I am, my natural interest, but this is really for me, this is a Trojan horse to self-love.
51:44
Yeah, that's what I felt when I was reading the book to be honest. Yeah, that's what I felt when I was watching the talk. Again, I'm glad you said it that way, because it really is what it feels. But well, now let's talk about the book title for a second, because it's called how to Find True Love.
52:05
Yeah, I know it's so bold.
52:08
I love it. I love it honestly, and there's echoes of the one time in my life that someone had said to me oh my God, I heard you found true love which, sadly for us, did not last. But what do you mean by that in the context of the book?
52:24
Yeah, so what I mean. So I'm using this term true love, which in English is very loaded right, because I think the historical, cultural definition of this word is about one person. You were made for each other. We're all like two halves of this whole and we're just looking for that other half, and then it's you complete me. You are the one and I am a romantic person. So I love that idea.
52:53
But at the same time, I also think that we're so used to thinking of love as something that is outside of ourselves, including another person, and we're looking at this person as this person is my portal to love. This is how I connect to love is through this other person, through this, like my one. True love and I both mean the title literally, in that it is a book about how do you find someone to have that experience with, but I mean it more about a type of relationship and a relationship having certain qualities that I'm calling a true love relationship. So when we think about that idea of like, oh, you're with this person and you just love each other so much and it's just your hearts are so open to each other and there's just this amazing exchange of just all of that loving energy between the two of you. If we think about that just as one person, then we're just looking for somebody we're really attracted to, we're really connected to and we're just like all right now. We just got to hope it works out.
53:56
So I mean it literally in terms of how do you get to that true love relationship, but I also mean that you are your primary true love right, and so the way that you get to that relationship with another person is actually by understanding the love inside and cultivating the love inside and normalizing the love inside. So the way that I define a true love relationship is one that has a foundation of unconditional love, unconditional respect, emotional and physical intimacy, emotional and physical safety, adoration, commitment and joy Right.
54:32
And so I love those, the green flags.
54:35
Those are all really green flags, brightly green flashing.
54:39
When you have a relationship that has those qualities, that's the foundation of your relationship, absolutely, it is going to feel magical.
54:47
It is going to feel like, oh my God, this is a dream come true Doesn't mean you don't ever have sadness or challenges or anything else, but that is actually what we're seeking. And when you understand that you are your first true love, you are your primary true love and okay, well, I need to normalize those feelings within myself and those experiences right within myself, like the people that you were mentioning, who might say, oh, I feel so stunted in my ability to love myself so it's hard for me to give love to anyone else. That's actually an incredible amount of self-awareness. I'm, like, good for those people for even recognizing that, because now, hopefully, they're going to do that work to, like you know to, to open that up within themselves. But so many people don't even have that awareness to see the connection between self-love and the love and the relationships I have with other people, especially romantic relationships, because, again, the idea is that you're just supposed to meet the one and it's all supposed to work out.
55:52
Yeah, when I think about it, I see how much of my conditioning comes from the same place as yours, even though we weren't on the same continent. Yeah, so the book. There's so many questions I have for you and we're not going to get through all of them today. I can tell. But let's talk a little bit about how you've divided the book in several sections, and I'd love for you to give a taste of our listeners to what it means, because I think I don't use this podcast as a means to promote people's work, but I like for them to understand what it is that you're bringing to the table, because I feel like the depth of your expertise has built something that's potentially transformational if they actually follow the course of what you've built so you blend mindset, heart set, soul set and skill set.
56:46
Can you please explain to us what that means?
56:49
Yes. So again in this you know decade plus long journey that I've been on of really trying to understand what makes finding and forming a romantic partnership something that is so elusive to some people. What makes it easier for other people? Why are they all these mixed results? Right? And, like I said, as a matchmaker, it became very clear right away that mindset was huge. Right. Just even what, literally? What is your expectation of love? How do you think it works? Right? It's like it's very basic, right. What is your definition of love? What is your definition of a healthy relationship? Right? And I saw that for so many people, their minds were just totally so much conditioning that it was like, oh my gosh, we can't even get into the dating part until we get your head right, basically. So that's why Mindset is the first part of the book.
57:51
The first chapter of the book is called Center Love and it's about having a more holistic approach to centering love in your life and not engaging in these love hierarchies that we so often do, right? So we tend to put romantic love up on this pedestal it's the best love, it's the most special love. And then parenthood is also on a pedestal, particularly motherhood. But then there's like oh, you know well you're friends, it's great to have friends, but you know you're still going to die alone if you don't have a partner. And you know well, you're friends, it's great to have friends, but you know you're still going to die alone if you don't have a partner. And you know, sure, it's nice to love yourself, but you're still going to die alone if you don't have a partner.
58:25
And just this way that we always. That's so grim, I mean. But that's how a lot of people really think about romantic love. They think about it as like that's the pinnacle of love. And if I don't get that, then I failed right. And so I advocate for bringing it down off the pedestal and actually to the center of your life and really bringing your intention to have love through all parts of your life. Okay, I'm not going to go through every chapter, but my point is that's an important part.
58:56
It's an important part, and actually I think it was in that part of the book that you talked about the idea of planting the flag. Yes, and you talk about where am I standing right now, which direction I'm facing, where do I choose to plant my flag. And it really spoke to me also because I recently wrote a guide that's meant to be for purpose and orientation, so it's a coaching guide and I was looking at wayfinding, but there was this essence of orientation, of taking stock of where you are compared to where you want to be, where you want to go, and I love that. So, centering and planting a flag. Can you speak to that a bit more?
59:39
Yeah, the planting the flag. That is really on a spectrum. We have love on one end and we have fear on the other, and we tend to think of hate as the opposite of love. But I actually think of hate as a quote location on the fear end of the spectrum, as a quote location on the fear end of the spectrum. Right, and when it comes to dating and just the approach to finding a great relationship or finding a person with whom you can co-create a great relationship, I should say the relationship is not a fully formed thing. You do it together, but there are so many people who are really operating from a place of fear.
01:00:20
But there are so many people who are really operating from a place of fear scarcity, it's not going to happen, or what if I make the wrong decision? Or what if I get hurt? Or what if I find love and I lose it? Or what if I'm not good enough? What if I get rejected? They're so entrenched in fear on their love journey and so when I talk about planting a flag, it's like understanding fear is normal, fear is human.
01:00:42
The point is not that we need to eradicate fear. That's not what I'm advocating, but I am advocating that we be intentional about saying OK, even though I do feel afraid. I'm still choosing to plant my flag on the side of love and I am choosing to take whatever baby steps I need to take to move in that direction, right, and so that what that looks like for different people I mean some of it is just literally thinking differently, right, not seeing themselves as a failure because maybe you're a certain age and you don't have the partnership you thought you would. Okay, if you let that go right, how much more love could you experience? How much more excitement could you experience? How much more self-acceptance can you experience?
01:01:25
And if you think of that spectrum of love to fear, where is self-acceptance? Which end of the spectrum is that on right? Which end of the spectrum is excitement on? Which end of the spectrum is believing that you're worthy, right? Is that on? And so it's understanding that, like we don't have to be perfect and I say this so many times in the book, perfection is thankfully not required because we don't get to do that as humans but the more awareness we can bring to like okay, wait, I might be standing in a lot of fear right now, but I'm still choosing to turn towards the thing that I want, and that is love, and then act accordingly.
01:02:06
That's beautiful. Now, part of the situation that most of your clients are in which I'm guessing is what we hinted at before is that one of the main ways that they're going to be meeting someone is via the apps. The apps are not in their best place right now, no, and they haven't been for a while, and it's all over the news if anybody wants to look at it. We don't need to go into the details and go in specifics as to which one is doing what, but I was remembering, as I was listening to you on another show, I was remembering a quote. I don't know if you know Scott Galloway.
01:02:48
Yep, yeah, so he wrote a year or two ago a really amazing essay and I remember this quote. He said we have innovated ourselves into isolation. And I remember this quote he said we have innovated ourselves into isolation. And it's interesting because I can see him sort of grow in age and as a father and as a teacher and really wanting to take a stake and supporting, first of all, the world of tomorrow, because he has kids, so he cares, and I think he's also taking a stance for young men in particular, which I think is important, and I think he's also taking a stance for young men in particular, which I think is important.
01:03:24
But I was thinking about this Netflix and chill to Uber, eats is going to deliver, and then you have the apps and you swipe, and most of us cannot sit in front of Netflix or any other streaming without having our phone in our hands, and so it may feel a bit bold, but I was wondering, knowing where we are in terms of our isolation and innovation and the current state of our love lives, I was wondering what would you like to see happen, either in our behavior or, let's say, someone who owns an app or wants to launch one. What would you like to see them do to empower people? What would you like to see them do to empower people? Because clearly, you and I believe that we need to have more love in our lives, that we everyone deserves this, so what would you like to see us do?
01:04:19
Yeah, oh, that's such a good question, I mean, and I have answers.
01:04:25
I don't doubt it.
01:04:26
I think about this. It's what I think about all the time. Well, I'll start with the apps and I'll say I think that dating apps, digital dating it is a useful tool, and I think it's particularly useful for people who maybe they're LGBTQ, tia. If you're gay and you live in a place that maybe there aren't a lot of people or you don't know who else is gay, you're not connected to that community. You don't have the comfort to just go up to somebody you find interesting and just say like hey, and because maybe that's doesn't feel safe or welcome. So I think that there are certain populations in particular that have really benefited from online dating and that you know, and to some extent, it applies to everyone.
01:05:08
However, I was saying, like back in the day when I first did matchcom, you know, back in the early 2000s, it was about this is a tool.
01:05:17
I'm here to connect with people online and meet them in person, and it was.
01:05:22
That pipeline was very clear and that's what people were looking for, right, like, let's meet in person, let's get off this, this platform.
01:05:30
And one thing that's what people were looking for, right, like, let's meet in person, let's get off this platform. And one thing that's happened, as now that we have smartphones, now that we have apps, now that we have a tech industry that's worth, you know, trillions and trillions of dollars, is now the incentives are for people to stay on their devices and on these platforms as long as possible. So the incentive for a dating app like a Tinder or a Hinge or a Bumble, is for you to be a customer of that app for as long as possible. So, in terms of what they need to do, I think their business model is just inherently not good, is inherently flawed. In terms of what needs to happen, I think that the incentives need to be aligned. So how do you both help people to make connections and to build relationships and also get paid? That's what needs to be figured out. I actually have an idea about it, but I'm not going to talk about it here because it's too, relevant.
01:06:32
I'm getting ideas, even as you're describing it. Yes, of course I mean. At the end of the day, if they want to make this a working model, there's an adjustment to be made, but what would be interesting is to see at least one app having a mission that is aligned with the reality of what their customers need.
01:06:50
right, yeah, and it's hard because all of these apps they're VC funded and the goal is to make as much money as possible. Right, and so that's the apps. But I think the larger thing in terms of what I want to see is I want people to feel more empowered and feel more agency over their romantic lives, meaning that you might use an app just like the way you might look for a job on LinkedIn, but if you're really looking for a new job, is that the only thing that you're doing? You know does like looking for a job equate solely to looking at listings on LinkedIn, and that's what dating has become for so many people. To them, dating equals being on an app and swiping on an app, and that is a fundamental missed opportunity that you know, for people to see that as their only portal to romantic connection. So, in general, with our devices and everything, I think we need to be more mindful of what is the actual cost to our mental health, to our ability to connect as humans, to being so technologically dependent. So, on an individual level, we need to make a decision that we are going to engage differently, but I think that when it comes to dating specifically, what I want to see is more people meeting in person.
01:08:17
What I want to see is more people being more bold as they move through the world. You know I call it the meet cute mindset. That's part of you know, in the mindset section of the book I said we didn't get through all the other three yet. I want people to really push themselves, like okay, how can I be more vulnerable? How can I be more present? How can I even even just when I am out in public, am I? How much? Am I on my phone? Can I put my phone down? Can I put my you know phones down? Eyes up, right? Am I willing to make eye contact, to smile, to start a conversation, to go someplace where maybe I don't know people, but I'm putting myself in an environment that I feel called to be in for some reason because that seems interesting or cool or whatever.
01:08:58
Like, I want people to just be more present and more in person. In general. Swiping on a dating app is not dating. Going on dates is dating, right? If you connected with somebody on an app and you're chatting for weeks, you're not dating. You've never met this person, right? Dating does not happen. Move to an in-person activity. So that's what I want to see. I want to see more people developing the skills, because it is all skill to be able to meet people more organically as they live their lives.
01:09:32
Sounds like it could be a great improvement for many people.
01:09:36
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
01:09:39
So tell me about heartset, soulset and skillset.
01:09:43
Yeah. So heartset is really about belief, and then I know this is something that you, as a fellow coach you see the power of belief every day in your clients. And it's really about understanding, like, well, what do I actually believe about myself when it comes to love, right? What is that romantic identity that I have? Because we all have, we have identities when it comes to everything, right, including romance. So a question I ask is in the love story of your life, like, what is the role that you play? How would you define that character as a way of starting to get a better understanding of how you really see yourself? Because some people see themselves as always ignored, some people see themselves as always taken advantage of, some people see themselves as the one who gives and provides, some people who it's all different sorts of things, but that matters, because how you feel matters. So the Heartset section of the book is really focused on that getting you to a place where you feel more empowered when it comes to love and what you believe about yourself and what you believe about your romantic possibility is actually aligned with what you want, because a lot of people are believing a lot of things about themselves and their romantic possibility that is completely out of alignment with what they want, and that alignment actually matters.
01:11:07
I'm very focused on, again, this is part of this. I call it my impossible mission, okay, because it just came. It came to me one day many years ago and I was just like, well, that's impossible. And I'm like, oh well, all right. Well, I guess that's this is just my impossible mission and I'll just do the best that I can. But I really am very fixated on this idea that if somebody wants to have a true love relationship, they should be able to have it Like period, like it should just be like, oh, if I want that, I should, I like I have that, like it should be an inevitable outcome, if that is what you choose. For me, the four parts of these books is like, the more you can align all four of these things, then that's all leading you to that inevitability, like it will happen, right. So how you feel about yourself on your love journey and what you believe is possible for you really, really, really, really, really matters so much. And, just like the mind, there's so much that needs to be released and decolonized in order to get to that place of alignment.
01:12:20
And then the third part of the book is soul set, as you mentioned, and this is the part of the book that is really about connecting to a higher love. So there is faith that is involved here. Right, there is an ability to connect to the abundance of love in the universe, right, and of the forces of gratitude and intention and serendipity, because these are all at play. Right, and serendipity is something that you can court and gratitude is something that makes you more aligned with love, and intention is something that is powerful. When you set an intention, it does set you on a path and you start to you know, things start to happen and things start to move, having that soul level connection, understanding, like your romantic energy, because we understand mind, we understand emotion, we understand action, but we less understand energy. But the thing is like that's actually the thing that's drawing you to people and that's actually the thing that you know. When somebody comes in, you get a feeling off of them or they get a feeling from you, like that's all our energetic selves communicating. And a lot of people are very, very disconnected from that. They're so in their minds or they're so in their feelings even that they're not paying attention to, like wait, there's some, there's this whole other dimension that's going on here. That actually is going to be the secret sauce here and actually like guiding me to the right people and them to me, and I'm ignoring it. Like, stop ignoring it. And then, last but not least, a skill set, and that is where I talk about really these foundational dating skills that make connecting easier, that give you an ability to understand where you are on your individual love journey through the dating archetypes that I created and you understanding what it is to prioritize when you're meeting people. Just a lot of that nuts and bolts.
01:14:19
How to flirt I have a whole chapter on flirting because flirting is such a foundational dating and relationship skill and dating skills are love skills. So you know it all applies. It's a circle. Yeah, it's a total circle, but even you know just flirting. There's so many people and this is another thing that dating apps have really a lot of people. They don't know what that means and they only have a very narrow idea of what flirting is. But there's actually lots of different styles of flirting. There's eight that I talk about in the book that I've identified.
01:14:53
That's a lot of flirting. It's a lot of flirting, and the point is not that you have to do all of it and the point is for you to understand, like, oh, I think that it has to look this one way, but actually if I bring my intention and I combine that with my personality and I get a little bit better skill at this or that, then you actually become really, really in your own authentic flirting mojo, which is the goal. It's not to follow a formula of, you know, do X, y, z. That doesn't work for everyone, that might be totally misaligned with your personality, with your intentions, all the things. So yeah, it's a big topic. I love talking about flirting.
01:15:29
I can tell, I can feel your energy when you talk about it, and I heard that on other podcasts as well. It's interesting what you're saying about this authentic making in your own, because again, it feels so far from tactics what you describe. It feels like you've bottled up everything you know, but it's not just. Let me read Francesca's book. I was going to say, franny, you can say Franny.
01:15:55
Let's read the book and I will get it. There's some exercises to do. Now there's a part of me that wanted to ask, because I'm also working on a book and I love reading books. I have piles and piles of books everywhere, but there's a part of me that knows that some people are going to read the book and do the exercises and some people are not going to do it. What's your plan for because I know you have one, I can feel it for the people who are going to read the book but are not going to do the exercises on their own?
01:16:25
Well, I mean, if they don't do the exercises, they're really selling themselves short. So I mean, I'm hoping that if people take the time to read the book, that they will also do the exercises, because hopefully I will have done my job of convincing them that this is not a one size fits all thing and that you have the answers within you and here's how to find them. Other than that, it's just the larger mission. It's just like you, like you're writing a book and you're coaching and you have a podcast and you do these, you know. So it's like me, same thing, like I think I. My plan is just to keep shouting it from the rooftops. My plan is just to keep shouting it from the rooftops.
01:17:08
But you also have. You also have a course and you have a Patreon. Now I do. You have a community, I do. Can you tell?
01:17:15
us about that. Yeah, so I have a course called how to Date with Intention. So, cause, that's that's the thing people are like. Well, what does that mean exactly? And it's a 21 day course, it's, actually, but it's short lessons. They're delivered via WhatsApp or text, so very short lessons, but it's just to prepare yourself to.
01:17:36
Okay, what's most important to me right now, what's my immediate love assignment, as I call it right, in service of my larger love goals. Because that's one thing is to say, like, if I go back to myself as a 25-year-old lawyer and I wanted to have true love, I wanted to have an amazing partnership, but I also recognized I actually don't even know how to date, so my goal should not, perhaps my goal should not be to meet my husband tomorrow, but my goal actually should be to learn how to date and to figure out how I even go about that. Right, just like I use as an example of the difference between the high level intention and the immediate love assignment Right, those are not, they're not always the same, right? So that course is really focused on helping people to get clear on what that assignment is, what to prioritize, how to show up in dating.
01:18:31
And then I have my community, the True Love Society, which I actually founded it back in 2020, but we've had different iterations of it and now it's on Patreon. That community is a place for us to come together and I have monthly Q&As so people can come and ask me anything. I have special guests that come and talk and share their expertise each month and, yeah, there's just a library of resources there. I'm just going to keep on doing a lot of things because I have this impossible mission, anne. So what do I got? I just got to keep going.
01:19:08
You're going to have to keep going and it's true that I find it quite natural and extension to think of the masterclasses and to have a direct place to connect right and to come and ask questions. Lay bare the things that you're going through, because I think that when you are going through it, having a community around is probably very helpful.
01:19:33
Oh, so helpful Because it's otherwise. It's like that Scott Galloway quote you were saying you know, dating has become such an isolating experience and, going back to the history, that is not how humans have done relationships for tens of thousands of years. So this idea that we're just on our own, to figure out everything on our own and go through everything on our own, is a brand new thing, and that's why it feels really hard, because we don't really know how to do it on our own. Yeah, people find it very comforting and very validating to be like oh wait, I'm not the only person who had that experience, or I'm not the only person that feels that way. And yeah, the community aspect is really important. We need more togetherness.
01:20:15
Yeah, absolutely. I saw that there's going to be an upcoming call about how to use human design strategy in dating. Yes, that sounded really cool, and actually there's a friend of mine. She's in Switzerland, so I don't know if she can make that one, but I think that that would be very up her alley. So, as you know, the podcast is at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and my goal is to talk about life beyond business, but also to include work right, because it's an important part of what we're here to do. And also I like to use the word living with intention, which I think perhaps resonates with you, and that's why I like to ask my guests how do they stay grounded present? What practices work for you day to day to make you feel connected to yourself and, I guess, to the wider world around you?
01:21:13
yes, um, well, you were asking the right person because I have. I have practices, and well, I, in terms of my physical body, I do stretch and or do a bit of yoga every day and I have to do that. If I don't do that then I'll just be creaky and stiff and achy and all those things. So, especially the hips, like I have to stretch my hips every single day. God bless people who don't have to do that. But I'm also a very big walker, so I walk a lot and that's really non-negotiable for me.
01:21:51
I'm in New York now because I'm transitioning. I actually left California so I'm in New York right now, and so I've been in this very cold New York winter and it's been freezing and snow and like all the things, and I will not let it stop me. I don't care if it's raining, I don't care if it's sleeting, I don't care if it's five degrees outside, like I'm going to walk, and so I'm very uncompromising about that and that's for, like my mental health, my physical health, that's my exercise. I don't like work out but I walk and I love to do it and I think walking is something that very much helps me to stay grounded. It helps me to stay grounded in my body. It helps me to stay grounded in humanity Because when you walk miles a day in a city you see all sorts of people and experiences and I like that. I like feeling connected to people and it just clears my head. So big mental health practice for me is walking. Practice for me is walking.
01:22:51
I also journal every day. So I have a morning pages practice, so I journal in the morning and my morning pages journal has now also turned into a night pages journals and actually I was laughing when I saw this morning what I wrote last night and all I wrote last night was I am beyond tired, there's not going to be any journaling tonight. I always start my day with more with my morning pages journal and then I also actually typically journal again during the day in a different journal. I have more than one. So that's a very big, big, big practice for me. So I'd say walking, stretching, slash yoga and journaling are like really, really huge for me.
01:23:27
And also what I eat is also. I feel I just I don't know, it's just being 50. I used to be somebody who would like go to the gym and then go have, like you know, a cheeseburger and fries for dinner and ice cream, and my body is like we're not doing that anymore. So not that I never do that, but I'm very diligent about eating lots of vegetables. Every day I get my leafy greens in. I drink a lot of water. Like all of that, it makes a difference.
01:23:59
Sure, it sounds like you're. It sounds like you're treating body and mind. It sounds like you're doing all of the things that you need to do.
01:24:10
I. That is, that is the goal. Yeah, that is the goal.
01:24:14
Yeah, I feel like we could have another conversation just to talk about morning pages, because it's one of my favorite things in the world. So, yeah, it's, but let's keep it for another time. Yeah, now I have a few questions that I like to close the podcast with. They make me happy. Maybe one day there'll also be merch. Particularly, I like the idea of having a t-shirt with everyone's favorite words, because all of them are really great.
01:24:40
I love merch, by the way, sign me up, and so I would like to start with. Well, the first one that could get on a t-shirt is the answer to this question what is your favorite word? But I like to give context. A word that you like so much, you could tattoo it on yourself aka live with for a while, so it doesn't need to be the only word of your life. But what's a word that you could have on your body?
01:25:12
Yeah Well, I'm not going to choose love just because. I didn't think you would actually yeah, there's two words that came to mind, so one is the word manifestation and one is the word serendipity. I really love.
01:25:29
Ah, two sides of the same coin, perhaps.
01:25:31
Yeah, they're related. I think serendipities are how you know things manifest. I'll go with serendipity because, next to love, serendipity is my favorite universal force. It's proof that we are loved.
01:25:52
Yeah, and also it's a lovely sounding word, I must add yeah. Yeah, it's good. What does connection mean to you?
01:26:00
connection means coming together and seeing and allowing yourself to be seen.
01:26:13
Now, this is arguably the hardest question in the whole lot. What song best represents you?
01:26:21
Oh gosh, that is a hard question. What song best represents me?
01:26:27
Hmm.
01:26:29
Hmm, hmm, I mean okay, because I think, because there actually are songs that I like to dance to and I don't generally set an alarm, but when I do use an alarm, I use a music alarm so I can have music because I think waking up to like it's like the worst thing in the world. I'm like why is the world doing this to themselves? You're like traumatizing yourself awake, but anyway, that's like the worst thing in the world. I'm like why is the world doing this to themselves? You're like traumatizing yourself awake, but anyway, that's another story. But I don't think that they represent me. I just think they're like a nice fun song to wake up to.
01:27:00
This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go with. First of all, I'm going to choose a U2 song On a choice, because I am a U2 super fan since I was 12 years old. So how many people have the same favorite artist? For they're 12 and they're 50, not many, but I'm one of them, and so I'm going to choose probably one of the songs that made me fall in love with U2 in the first place. Yeah, I still haven't found what I'm looking for. Oh, I love that song so much.
01:27:33
Oh, that's such a beautiful song and also, just you know, there's a playlist with the answers for all my guests and thank you for putting that on there.
01:27:41
Oh, I can't wait to hear the playlist.
01:27:44
That's awesome. What is the sweetest thing that's ever happened to you?
01:27:51
The sweetest thing that's ever happened to me. Oh gosh, I mean, that's hard the sweetest thing that's ever happened to me? Well, I feel really blessed because I feel like there are so many different directions. I could go with that question. I guess this is what's coming up right now. So I have, I have godsons who, I have, twin godsons who are 25, and well, they'll be 25 this year and I love them so much and this isn't necessarily one thing, but when this happens, it makes me so happy, which is that they, first of all, they love me so much and they're so proud of me and like that just warms my heart so much. But they also come to me for love advice, and so I'll get a text message from one of them and be like Franny, do you have some time to talk?
01:28:56
I'm going through something and it just makes me so happy it makes me happy and I don't know them that's so sweet, it makes me happy.
01:29:06
They come me for advice, they confide so much in me, they listen to me and it never gets old, and the fact that they're 25 and they're still doing it, I'm just like it makes me so happy. So the sweetest thing that ever happened to me is just having these amazing godsons who just yeah, they just, they just trust me and they confided me, and it's wonderful.
01:29:36
That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. What's a favorite book? Not the only your favorite, but what's a favorite book that you can share with us?
01:29:54
Oh gosh, I mean yes, okay, I can answer this question more quickly. It's funny. I have a few books that like I have shared them so many times on Audible that I'm banned. Like they won't let me share it anymore.
01:30:01
That's amazing.
01:30:03
You've reached the limit, lady, but one of them is um the untethered soul by michael singer yeah I love that book. I revisit the book. I mean I like the whole trilogy I think is great, but the untethered soul is the first one and that to me, was one of many life-changing books. I mean, there there's. We could definitely have a whole podcast episode just about.
01:30:28
Okay, maybe we should have a second one.
01:30:30
Just about books, but I really, I really love that book.
01:30:39
I must tell you, if you have not read it, given what you do have you ever heard of the 40 Rules of Love by Elif Shafak?
01:30:47
I have. Actually, do I have it? I think I think I have, because I'm, you know, just left out. I've just left California. Most of my books are in boxes, but I think that I actually have that book and I just have not read it yet.
01:31:04
Oh well, you know. Let me know what you think once you've read it.
01:31:07
Okay.
01:31:09
That's the book I had. I bought myself a really beaten up secondhand copy and that's the only way that it will stay in my house, because every time someone has not read it they leave with a copy and then I have to buy it for myself over and over again. It's not the same as the band, but it's pretty close, amazing. It's not the same as the band, but it's pretty close Amazing.
01:31:33
Imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself. What is the most important advice you think that future you needs to give to present state Francesca.
01:31:42
Don't waste your energy stressing out Everything is going to be fine. Out, everything is going to be fine. Everything is going to be as it's meant to be, and you have enough evidence of that to know that.
01:32:00
Yeah.
01:32:00
And to believe it.
01:32:01
Yeah, that's beautiful. And that brings me to my last question and also my favorite what brings you happiness? Last question, and also my favorite what brings?
01:32:09
you happiness. Oh gosh, I mean so many things bring me happiness. Going for a walk brings me happiness. I have an amazing man in my life who brings me happiness every day. He sent me a love letter for Valentine's Day, like in the mail. It's all I wanted, so happy. Every time I see a dog it makes me happy. I mean, I can, I can find a lot of joy.
01:32:40
Yeah, I'm like a, I'm like a heat seeking missile for joy your friends must be delighted to have you around, that's for sure.
01:32:47
I'm pretty lucky. I have some very amazing friends, really long-term friendships, Just yeah. I feel I'm very blessed to have a lot of love and a lot of great relationships in my life.
01:33:00
Well, francesca, it was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for your time, for your energy, for the book, for the TED Talk, which I hope all of these things combined and the community and your impossible mission, are hopefully going to bring a lot of love in a lot of people's lives. When is the book out and where can people get it?
01:33:23
So the book is out April 8th and you can get it. Wherever you get your books Maybe not if you're in Europe, at your local bookstore, but you could still order it through your local bookstore. But any online booksellers yeah, okay, yeah, and actually it's even going to be printed. I just found out in Bulgarian. So if you're in Bulgaria, anybody listening in Bulgaria. Maybe you can find it at your local bookstore.
01:33:53
That's very cool. Congratulations on everything and I hope that I'll see you very soon in person.
01:34:00
Yes, I hope so too, and thank you so much, Anne. This has been such a delight. I'm so grateful.
01:34:29
So, friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. I'm so grateful Anne V Muhlethaler On LinkedIn If you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes or on Instagram, at underscore out of the clouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website outofthecloudscom. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the MetaView, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, conscious communication and the future of work. That's the MetaView with two Ts the MetaViewcom. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe and take care.