Jeremy Langmead is one of the founders of the global men’s e-tailer, Mr Porter, part of the YOOX Net-a-Porter Group. He joined in 2010 to help launch the e-commerce business in 2011 and oversaw the design, branding, content, social, communications and events teams for a number of years.
Jeremy has also served as chief content officer at Christie’s, launched LUXX magazine for The Times in 2017, and was previously editor-in-chief of Esquire, Wallpaper and the Sunday Times Style magazines.
Today Jeremy consults for a number of fashion and grooming brands; writes for The Times Saturday magazine, a grooming column for The Times’ LUXX magazine, the Telegraph, and has published a book on male vanity called “Vain Glorious;” and is the co-host of the podcast “How Long Have We Got?” with his friend Sarah Edmundson.
In this episode, Jeremy tells host Anne V Mühlethaler about his tumultuous childhood, filled with numerous stepfathers and a desire to create perfect worlds as a means of escape.
Jeremy recounts his early days in fashion, his time at Central St Martin’s and the career progression that led him from newspapers and magazines to Mr Porter (and the Mr Porter Post). From his move from the global e-tailer to Christie's and back, he shares the lessons he’s learned and the importance of innovation and storytelling in his professional journey.
Jeremy candidly shares with Anne his battle with prostate cancer, offering a raw and honest look at the challenges he faced. His diagnosis became a focal point for raising awareness about the importance of early detection in prostate cancer (check your PSAs, he reminds our listeners), which is what led him to write publicly about his experience for the Times and the Saturday Times Magazine. He explains how he met his friend and co-host Sarah and how the two of them decided to start a podcast that tries to “take the kerfuffle out of cancer,” in their own words.
Jeremy emphasises the complexities of living (and working) while in treatment, including how his relationship with his body has changed. He and Anne discuss how we can harness the power of storytelling to support patients in their health journeys and the crucial importance of cancer literacy.
Throughout the discussion, Jeremy talks about the intersection of vanity and authenticity, particularly as a gay man in the fashion world. He shares stories with Anne about his own experiences with male grooming (from hair transplant to eyelash dying) and explores the societal perceptions of vanity, encouraging men to embrace their desires to look and feel good without shame.
While the topic of the episode is serious at times, Jeremy shares his story with humour, tact and warmth, understanding the significant influence that the podcast has on the cancer community and those close to someone living with the illness.
By sharing his story, Jeremy not only raises awareness for early testing in prostate cancer, but also offers inspiration to listeners to find beauty and meaning in their journeys, regardless of the obstacles they may face.
An inspiring conversation that shows how humour, resilience and storytelling go hand in hand.
Selected links from episode:
Out of the Clouds website: https://outoftheclouds.com/
Out of the Clouds on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_outoftheclouds
The Mettā View website: https://avm.consulting/metta-view
Anne on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annvi/
Anne on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@annvi
Anne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-v-muhlethaler/
Jeremy on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jeremylangmead
Jeremy on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremylangmead/
Jeremy and Sarah’s podcast How Long Have You Got
How Long Have You Got on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/howlonghaveyougot2024/
Jeremy’s first article for the Times
Jeremy’s follow up article about the podcast with Sarah Edmundson
Death Dula Alua Arthur’s TED talk
What song best represents him : Pet Shop Boys ‘It’s a sin’ and ‘being boring’
Here you can find the Out of the Clouds playlist containing the songs chosen by the guests who answered the question: ‘What Song Best Represents You?’
Favorite books Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood and Bruce Chatwin's What Am I Doing Here?
Cancer Centre at Guy’s Hospital
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00:04
Hi, hello, bonjour and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I'm your host, Anne V Muhlethaler. Today, my guest is Jeremy Langmead. Jeremy is an incredibly talented man who was one of the founders of the global men's e-tailer Mr Porter. For them, he oversaw design, branding, content, social as well as events, and it's around that time that Jeremy and I crossed paths, as we had some good friends in common. I remember a lively dinner in New York City. In particular, Jeremy has also served as the chief content officer at Christie's, where he helped digitalize the auction house and all their consumer touchpoints. He also launched Lux magazine for the Times in 2017. And prior to that, he served as editor-in-chief of titles such as Esquire magazine, wallpaper and my beloved Sunday Times Style magazine. Today, Jeremy writes for the Times. He also has a grooming column which I love to read for the Times, lux, and he wrote a book which we talk about called Vainglorious on Male Vanity. Jeremy also publishes a weekly podcast called how Long have you Got, which he co-hosts with his friend, Sarah.
01:40
Aside from that, Jeremy consults for a number of fashion and grooming brands, so today we talk about it all. He tells me about his early beginnings in fashion, his time at Central Saint Martins and how he landed his first job. I asked him lots of questions about Mr Porter because it's a business that's been close to my heart for a long time. We talk about content, career, media, trying to understand and speak the right language for men to shop online and, of course, grooming, and then we pivot to talk about what Jeremy and I laughingly call the cancer chapter, starting with how he wrote an article for the Times two years ago revealing his prostate cancer diagnosis, his treatment and surgery. He also tells me about how he has been on a mission ever since to raise awareness for prostate cancer testing. He decided to join forces with a new friend, Sarah, also a cancer patient.
02:44
Together they host how Long have you Got? But in their own words, they try to take the kerfuffle out of cancer. So there's a lot in there. We talk about semantics of cancer, what words to say and not to say death literacy. I asked Jeremy how he relates to his body. We also talk and laugh a lot when he shares about how enthusiastic he found himself to be writing his own eulogy, and he offers this beautiful advice to just do it aka try everything. I'm thrilled to be bringing you my conversation. It's thoughtful, honest and funny despite the subject matter. It's thoughtful, honest and funny despite the subject matter. So, without further ado, I give you my interview with Jeremy Langmead. Happy listening, Jeremy. It's so nice to see you. Welcome to Out of the Clouds.
03:37
Thank you, nice to see you. It's been too long, yeah, absolutely.
03:41
So tell me first where am I finding you today?
03:49
So I'm in Primrose Hill in London. I mostly live in the Lake District in Cumber in the north of England. I pop up to London for work, treatment, see friends, and I'm really lucky. My sister has a house in Primrose Hill and I have a designated bedroom that's mine, so this is where I am when I'm in London. I used to live in Primrose Hill, so it really does feel like coming home, so that's where I am today.
04:06
That's gorgeous and I have to say I'm really loving the green behind you.
04:09
She loves the colours, so yeah, there's colour everywhere. It's not necessarily a flashing one against my skin tones, but I can live with it.
04:16
On camera it looks good. You seem to have a bit of a tan. So, yeah, that works. Yeah, that helps. That helps. Yeah, it helps if your background is arsenic green. So, as you already know, what I like to do at the top of the podcast is to invite my guests to tell their stories, and to tell it quite freely. I'd love to find out who Jeremy was as a kid, what did you want to be as you grew up and what brought you to be the person you are today.
04:48
Okay, that's a big question and I'm not sure one that I should share. I suppose my childhood was about kind of about running away and creating perfect worlds which I didn't feel were the worlds I was in when I was young. My mother quite an amazing woman, but she is very keen on getting married and she's been married five times. There were a lot of new dads every sort of 10 minutes when I was a child, and my actual dad. They had a terrible bit of custody battles with sort of social workers, lawyers, the local MP quite a big traumatic. So that happened. And then she married a guy who turned out to be an alcoholic and died at the age of 39. So that was quite traumatic. And then she married someone who was very nice but had undiagnosed bipolar condition. So one day he was just carted off to a mental institution and we didn't see him again. And then there's a few more after that. So it was quite a unsettled childhood, one could say, and so I think I asked to go to boarding school. I must be one of the few people who begged to go to boarding school. So I went off to boarding school, which was a respite from the rather tumultuous home life and I think that really messy childhood gave me a desire to create perfect worlds and wonderful worlds and fantasy worlds, and I think that's probably fed into to where I ended up.
06:05
For many years. This is true. I was at a Roman Catholic boarding school. I wasn't a Roman Catholic myself, but I really went for the Catholicism and I decided. A little bit of me hasn't given up on this ambition, despite being a few rocky roads on that path is I wanted to be Pope and I would still quite like to be a Pope. There's a few obstacles I'm married to a man. I'm not actually a Roman Catholic. I may not have led a sinless life. However, I think obstacles can always be overcome and papacy could be around the corner. So that was my challenge. I used to go around blessing people all the time, practicing for when I was Pope Jeremiah I or II.
06:43
That's lovely, Gosh. I love that. That's a very unusual ambition, but I do appreciate it. It was unusual. Was it the gold bathtub that was drawing you?
06:54
I think the clothes were quite an important part of it, and plus the room and splendor. But I think eventually I gave up on papacy and ended up in fashion, which isn't always a million miles away from that. And I think another of my escape routes after boarding school was I bought all those fashion magazines, like the Face and Blitz, and just saw these pictures of these really cool club kids who seemed to be having an amazing time, and they always were students at St Martin's School of Art. So I thought that's where I have to go and so I applied to get into St Martin's and luckily I did get in and I studied fashion, but I hated making clothes and sewing and so I specialized in the fashion, journalism and communication part of the course and then one thing led to another. So it was all running away from things led me to things. So I'm glad that I ran away from things when I was young yeah, that's amazing.
07:44
how was St Martin's when you were there?
07:47
It was so fun?
07:48
Yeah, because it sounds like it was just the most amazing place to be.
07:52
It really was. It was in the middle of the. I went there in 1985, so I was there, bang in the middle of club world and crazy clothes and John Galliol never just graduated and St John was there and I wasn't. It was all about going to nightclubs and dressing up and we went to the same two nightclubs every Tuesday and every Thursday and they would just, you know, lee Barry would be dancing away and everyone was dancing and you had to wear a different outfit every single time you went to these clubs. So it was all about creating outfits and it was really fun.
08:19
I wouldn't say I learned a huge amount on my course, but I learned how to have fun, I learned about dressing up, I learned about socializing and I think the useful thing was it was a four-year course and in the third year you did a year out of placement year and I did placement at Cosmopolitan, the Daily Telegraph, and ended up working for Vogue Men. It used to be a Vogue Men section in British Vogue all those years ago and the fashion director then was called marcus on ackerman and so I ended up being his assistant for two or three years actually, while I spent saint martin's, I continued being his assistant after the placement year, and so it ended up in in that bonkers but rather fabulous fashion world and then moved into journalism from that. I didn't want to just do clothes and so I ended up lifestyle and beaches.
09:04
Do you? What was the? So? First of all, that sounds like a really wonderful study plan. As someone who dropped out of university, I feel vaguely envious, because there was nothing remarkably as fun as what you did in Geneva, Switzerland. We're not known for our clubbing, to be fair, so did you feel an attraction to the written word before you got started?
09:31
I did. Yes. I lived in Norway as well with one of the husbands for a few years, and when we lived in Norway I didn't speak Norwegian and couldn't watch TV because it was in Norwegian, couldn't go to the cinema it was in Norwegian. So all I did was read. So I was a prolific reader. I'd read every Dickens novel by the age of nine. So that made me love storytelling and writing. And then obviously I learned a bit more at St Martin's. A little bit more.
09:52
But I was lucky on the last week of the course and I wasn't really sure what I was going to do once I graduated and the Jessie Wood was the secretary in the fashion department at St Martin's and she wasn't in her office and her phone rang and she was quite old. So I thought I'll answer the phone. She'll never make it in time. So I picked up the phone and it was a lady from the Sunday Times, said that they were looking for a junior sub-editor. Would St Martin's be able to recommend anyone from the fashion journalism course that might be appropriate to interview for the job? And so I said yes, there's someone called Jeremy Langmead who I recommend highly. I will happily send him along. And I mean, he didn't tell anyone else about this, so I was, he counted it and I got the job and I didn't even know what a sub-editor was and so being a sub-editor where basically you're correcting and editing, to tell a story succinctly, so it was just luck that I landed up there and landed in this job, that's fantastic.
10:46
And so you went on to have a really amazing career in working in some of the best loved titles. So you went to work at the Evening Standard.
10:52
Yeah, I started off at the Sunday Times and then I went to Nova Magazine and then I went to the Evening Standard so you've worked for some of the most amazing publications across your career.
11:12
So you started at the Sunday Times, and how did you go on to the various places that you then spend time in?
11:18
yeah, I launched the Sunday Times Style magazine, which was really fun you launched it I hadn't yeah, because it was a newspaper supplement and then we made it into a magazine, so it was a style section. But oh gosh, that must have been 95.
11:32
Because I still read it. It's one of my favorite magazines, oh good, no, it's fun. I actually have the app on the iPad. Oh, do you? Specifically because I love to read the Sunday Times style and I do love to read Kate and Moran as well, on in the Saturday.
11:43
Yeah, I love okay, but yeah, it's very much a fashion magazine now. It was a feature section of the newspaper when I was there so it was very much on the week story. So it was quite exciting because you were the features part of the newspaper, because you just went to press two days before, three days before the Sunday came out, so it was quite last minute and we always used to work to four in the morning, mostly leading up to press night. But it was so fun being on a big newspaper in the heyday of newspapers and you could be mischievous, naughty and so many people read it and it was a really exciting, sexy job.
12:15
I loved it one of my favorite jobs. I think.
12:18
And then because the style section was quite influential, I've been offered jobs on magazines and I thought it'd be fun to do magazines. So I did Nova for a short while and then Evening Standard again very exciting, because that was back in the day when there were four editions a day of the standard and I had to get into the office at seven, I had to present the features list by eight and then you had to get the features out of the afternoon's paper. So it was really last minute. But again it was really exciting because everyone you knew lived in London. So London was really last minute. But again it was really exciting because everyone you knew lived in London, so London was the only place that mattered back then. So it was really good fun.
12:50
And then I got asked to go to War Paper magazine, which was a completely bonkers world, and then Esquire, which was lovely to do a men's magazine, and then I got asked to go to Mr Portia. And that was there's two times in my life. One time I remember seeing an ad for a star letter for the Sunday Times when I was quite young and I thought that's the job I want and I applied for it. I didn't get it for years because I was still at college but I knew that was the job and then I got it. It was so amazing.
13:20
Years later I really hope Natalie Massenet calls me because I really want to get into the e-commerce world and the digital world. I've done enough print and then, amazingly, that call came and I ended up helping launch Mr Porter and myself for eight years and that was really exciting. There's so much change happening in menswear and e-commerce and digital content was such an exciting place to be at the time and they were really. I've been so lucky to have jobs where I've learned things, so to be paid to learn things is just the biggest treat and joy in the world, I think.
13:50
Yeah, and you worked with such an amazing team. I mean I don't know the teams that you worked with at Wallpaper or at Esquire so much, but at Mister you guys had the most fantastic group of people putting it together. And it was funny because I was in the wings as a supporter and we tried with Toby and your buying team several times.
14:13
But it was just not. They were against working with Mr Porter. It was the bane of my life, but it was really exciting because there was a very different tone and personality to this website, as from any other e-commerce that I've come across. Do you mind talking a bit about how you guys worked together? Because it really felt like Mr was like a someone and I also brought out a paper which at the time, was quite something.
14:42
Mr Porter Post yeah, it was Eric Torstensson and the crew at Saturday where they were at the time was quite something. Mr Porter Post yeah, it was Eric Torstensson and the crew at Saturday where they were at the time and it was their idea to launch a brand called Mr Porter under the Net-A-Porter umbrella and they presented that idea to Natalie Massenet and so they have to take the credit for coming up with the idea of Mr Porter. But then I got there, and this was the title and this was going to be roughly a look at it and I had to fill in the gaps and create the words and how we would talk and what we would write about and what the visuals would be like and all the customer touch points, how Mr Porter would sound. And it was really fun because you just create a world that doesn't exist. And that's what we got to do and we work very closely.
15:18
The buying team and the creative and editorial teams work very closely together. I went on the buying trips. The buying team were very involved also in the content and it really was a cohesive approach to making men feel comfortable buying clothes and buying fashion and enjoying it. No one really was doing that properly in the digital space and that was the idea. I remember Natalie at the beginning said what are everyone's ambitions? I said I wanted Mr Paul to be synonymous with men's style, and that was the ambition. And also wanted mr porter to appear in a rap song and it did. Asap rocky mentioned us in one of his lyrics and I said okay, job done, I'm done.
15:55
This is fine. But it was just thinking about how men tick and how they think and how they shop. And actually it's probably changed. It will have changed over the last decade, but back then men shopped very differently to women. So Net-A-Porter was very successful then and knew what they were doing. But we had to rethink that all for men. It was a different way that men shopped and thought and Net-A-Porter would say to its customers this is the Celine bag of the season, buy it. But you couldn't say that to a guy. If you said this is the bag of the season, I'd tell you to bog off. So you had to think of different ways of giving context really to clothes in men's lives and why they might want to buy it. And men ask a lot of questions and if you can answer those questions they'll buy. And so we had to make sure that every question was answered and you have to gain their trust and their confidence and that's why we really went for the style rather than for just fashion.
16:46
We didn't want to frighten anyone away it's interesting because it's also style, as a term invites a sense of timelessness right, which means that you're no longer victim to the trends, for example, which again is. It helps establish trust because you feel it's that retail vocabulary of investing in something.
17:09
Yeah, and I think that's true. And you've got to make men trust you and understand you. And at the beginning it's changed that At the beginning we never showed the models heads, because we don't want the men to think, oh, that's too young for me or that's too old for me or that's not right for me, because I think men can be quite literal, or they were then. We're far more sophisticated shoppers now, a decade later. So you had to just not frighten people off or make them think it wasn't for them, and so we really had to think about that and how to engage them.
17:40
And it was a really fun challenge. And what were you trying to do?
17:43
with the Mr Porter post. I suppose we were creating all this content and and it seemed a shame that it was only digital and not everyone might have seen it, and also it was a bit we who are we to dictate where men should read what content we created, and we should give them a choice. They could find us on social media. They could find us, obviously, online through a newcomer site, but also, if they wanted to, they could find us in print, and I didn't think we should be dictatorial about where people read about clothes or read about us, and we should be in whatever format they wish us to be, at whatever time of day, and that's why we put ourselves everywhere in everything that's great.
18:17
I remember I read it. It had such great writing and as a woman, I was enjoying reading about men's style.
18:25
Good, but that was also the point that the female customer was a big men's wear customer. Particularly from October towards Christmas, 30% of our sales were to women buying for men. So it was really important that to try and make it easier for women to understand how men dressed or what size they might be, or what would an architect wear, what would a builder wear, what would a fashionista wear, we wanted to answer all those questions for all the shoppers, so it really was just trying to make sure there were no questions unanswered in everything that we did so see a seamless service yeah, fascinating, because then, yes, you're making it a much more compelling retail experience if people can find their answers yeah, exactly finding the answers and also enjoying it and that was another reason maybe for doing a print edition is it was also a nice marketing tool.
19:12
But also, sometimes you just want to lean back in a chair and read something like that, and sometimes you want to scroll Most of you want to scroll but sometimes it's more relaxing and the journey from reading to basket is a less streamlined one obviously from print to shopping basket online but it still works.
19:30
Yeah, I'm sure it does and I think it probably also, just as you mentioned before, creates a sense of connection to the brand. So the trust, the loyalty, the understanding, it stays in the consumer perception. And I remember on occasion hearing guys around me, including, really funny, my solicitor who decided to share I don't know over what context, over a cup of coffee how much he enjoyed putting things in his basket.
19:59
Oh good, that's good to hear. I love solicitors they're quite good shoppers, actually and also the brands like to see that there was print as well as digital content. And at the beginning, not everyone was convinced that they needed to sell online. And before we launched, I remember again with Natalie, we'd go to Milan, we'd go and see Dolce, we'd go and see Prada and we'd say, look, this is Mr Porter, you need to be on it, it's. And they were good, yeah, we're not so sure it's important, the online shopping. And then you're crazy. And then, of course, they did come on board and and now they're all very good at doing it themselves, but they did the fact that they got the prints as well as digital content.
20:34
It was good for brands as well as for us yeah, and you guys also did some really funny and cool activations. I remember our good friend Emma, who was particularly excited.
20:44
It was right when that TV show Suits, suits, yes, that was such a huge, insane project, my God, it almost killed me.
20:54
I'm sure it did. I can't remember the ins and outs of it, but I just knew there were a lot of guys in suits on bicycles in Manhattan, yeah.
21:01
We had a fleet of guys cycling through Manhattan. We opened a shop downtown in Soho. We did a big fashion show on the High Line with Nick and Mark and all the guys from Suits there. It's insane that we managed to pull these things off. It's hilarious, it's brilliant.
21:16
It was fun really fun. And so what prompted you to go away from Mr Porter and what happened next?
21:24
if I may ask, I'd been there, for I was at Mr Porter a few years and I left for a year to go to Christie's to be chief content officer at Christie's, and I shouldn't have gone really, but the CEO was. He was very persuasive and, won't deny, they offered me a lot of money and also I thought, good, I don't know about the art world, it'd be really interesting and they want to be chief content officer. So I went to be chief content officer at christie's, but at the time most of the people at christie's were quite against digital content, sure, and and so I had quite a few battles to fight there. But it was quite exciting but insane and they were a bit behind the times. They're better now and and luckily, he asked me to go back to Mr. Porter and I thought you know what a year at christie, that's enough. I need to go back to Mr Porter. I thought you know what a year at Christie's is enough, I need to go back to the modern world.
22:05
And in fact it was the decision to go back to Mr Porter from Christie's was the CEO who hired me at Christie's was fired, and then the next day we wrote an email. The senior team got an email saying Stephen's left. We now need to slow the pace of change. I thought, oh my God, can you imagine Steve Jobs writing that to the team at Apple? I cannot work for a company that wants to slow the pace of change the worst words ever. So I went back for a few more years and this reporter, but then it was enough. I don't think you should stay too long in jobs because you're not fresh. You need new ideas. You need younger people who can see different things to the way you've done it, and so I always feel that you've got to let the new generation take over, and it was time for me to let them do that.
22:51
And I also wanted to leave, having enjoyed it and not fade away, I want to just go pop on. That's very smart. I admire you.
22:55
Who knows, it was a good decision, but I think it was.
22:58
And so what are you doing at the moment, if I may ask, yeah, so consult, but can you tell me more?
23:06
Yes, doing at the moment, if I may ask, yeah, so consult, but can you tell me more? Yes, so yeah, I live in supporter and it was locked down literally the week. My last day at mr porter was during lockdown, the first week of lockdown, and so I had a reset. I moved to the lake district, to Cumbria, and I really want some time off. I've been working in offices I'm working really hard for 28 odd years, so it was really nice to have a break. And I wrote a book because I got a bit bored during lockdown so I thought, oh, I'll do a book. So I did the book and then I started in consultancy. And so now I write for various newspapers and I do consultancy and I do a podcast. And then I got ill and then it's quite hard to work out work when you're ill. It's a tricky, it's a dilemma which I still struggle with.
23:45
Thanks for mentioning that. We can get into that a little bit more. I had not worked out the math that you'd left Mr right at the beginning of the first lockdown. What do you think I?
23:55
know, I think I was quite lucky because I didn't have all that hassle everyone had of trying to work out how to navigate the teams during lockdown. So I was just in the Lake District sitting outside the garden thinking phew.
24:09
Thank God, at least that I'd love to talk a bit about the book that you brought out. Actually, Can you tell me the story behind Vainglorious?
24:19
Yeah, I'm quite vain and also I've worked in industry. That's all about clothes and grooming, and I write a grooming column for the Times too, and I've always felt it's a bit unfair that the word vain gets a bad press.
24:31
I agree with you, which is why I wanted to lead on that question.
24:34
I know it's made me cross. It's unfair. Why shouldn't men want to look good or feel good, and it's totally a choice. I don't think you should have to look good, but if you want to, don't be embarrassed about it. And the stupid thing which I learned from working at Mr Porter and other places was men don't ask each other about these things, so they suffer quietly. Or I think the great thing about the Internet was men would be able to anonymously Google things and no one would know what they're asking. So that's been a great change for the way men dress and for the way they may want to look.
25:06
But I would have friends who worked in finance or big corporate jobs and I'd go to a dinner party and someone would mention that their hair was thinning and they'd all chuckle slyly and say, oh, I don't know what you're going to do about that, and I think I could tell you what to do about that. But they didn't ask each other. But they did feel comfortable asking me, basically because I was gay and had worked in fashion for the last few weeks, basically because I was gay and had worked in fashion. Oh, we can ask the gay guy, that's fine. So I got asked lots of questions by men about grooming and can I do this and can I do that?
25:31
And I was writing about different grooming treatments for the times, and so I said you know what? I'm just going to put this in the book. And then if guys want to know about this stuff, it's here. And it was a rally, for it's okay to care about how you look, and so I just wrote this book based around what I'd done and my feelings on vanity and some thoughts about vanity from childhood to adulthood and then, plus some of the treatments that you can do and, for instance, I the time to answer. You're going into your this guy, one of the top hair transplant guys on Harney Street, and I went to interview him and and I said to him I don't really know much about this because I'm very lucky, I don't need a hair transplant, but I'm intrigued to learn more and I could see him look at my hair.
26:08
I know I love that part of the book and he would say that you would know he didn't.
26:15
He got that and he said your hair has receded. I knew it receded a bit but I didn't really notice because it was so slow. But it had gone a fair bit back on my forehead and he took a marker pen and drew where my hairline used to be. And as soon as someone shows you what you did have and could have again, you want it and I thought, okay, we'll just make a copy. So great, I'll do a hair transplant. So I did the hair transplant and it was a great day out.
26:38
You're an amazing painkiller, so you're as high as a kite. You just sit there eating Haribo, watching telly while they spend seven hours moving all these follicles right through your head to the front of your head, and then you got hair again. And how great is that? If you want hair, lots of people look great without hair. But some people worry about not having hair and there's quite a few men who I've sent to this guy to have their hair done really quite macho city guys and they said it's changed their lives. They feel so much happier, more and more confident to have their hair back. And so I thought, oh God, I'm putting this in a book, and I don't care if I'm out there as Mr Vanity Pants, it's not again.
27:10
It'll maybe be a little bit helpful to a few people.
27:13
I really enjoyed that story, as I did the one time you got your eyelashes tinted.
27:20
Yeah, that wasn't. I look like Joan Collins.
27:22
That was an appalling thing to try, yeah terrible, and it's such a simple thing I love drag queens, but I don't want to look like one.
27:32
Yeah, one doesn't know what one looks like until you try what they call blue black, and that's what it was, and everyone was too polite to mention it in the office.
27:44
We started talking about working and what's it like to work with being sick. Yes, so perhaps we can now move our attention to that. Yeah the cancer chapter. I was doing my best not to call it a journey.
28:00
I know so hard.
28:02
It's really hard. But I laughed so much when you were saying to Stephen Fry anything that's got the word luggage in it seems more cheerful. Experience chapter voyage I like the idea of a grand tour yes, I like the idea of a grand tour.
28:19
Slightly over sells it, but it gives hope.
28:22
Yes, exactly so I read the article that you wrote in the Times in 2023 about your experience with cancer and you mentioned it just a few moments ago that you got sick and I first, before getting into it, I was wondering you've obviously been in and around the media. You were editor in chief at a number of publications. You were, you're used to having, let's say, a media persona, but that's still a very, you know, tender topic. I can imagine. Yeah, how did you feel about putting yourself out there in that way?
29:01
I did think long and hard about writing that piece, not because it was personal but because so many people have such bad versions of cancer and have had worse stories than mine so far touchwood. So I didn't want to be oh a pity me story. But I did really want to raise awareness of prostate cancer testing because you know, if you do your PSA test as early as possible and you catch prostate cancer very early, it can. You can be fine, you can be cured. If it's too late, then it can spread around your body, it metastases and then you're in a dangerous position. So I thought it was really important and so I wrote that piece and, as you say, I had a bit of a media profile and I sat many years ago and my wife and I amicably separated, but she was writing a column about our relationship already and the observer and so that column ended up being about our marriage ending and there was some Sundays when I'd get the observer and on above the masthead it would say indianite, on my husband, blah, blah, blah.
29:54
So I was used to that a little bit. I'd had a baptism of five many years before. I just say, I just thought it was an important thing to write. And again, going back to the men don't talk to each other, and this is another thing that men don't talk about is the health and having medicals and checkups enough, and that's why I did it. And do you know what was? I just actually saw my gp yesterday and when that piece came out he diagnosed six men with prostate cancer who come in having read that piece. Four of them it was caught early, two of them it was more advanced.
30:22
So I'm so glad I did it because even if it was just those four people whose lives are potentially saved by reading that piece, what a useful thing for once that I've done, having spent her life.
30:34
When people ask what I write about or what I cover, I always say all the unimportant things in life, slightly jokingly but slightly true, and so it was quite nice to do something that was more serious and and hopefully helpful. And what was also nice was I literally got hundreds and hundreds of messages from men comments under under the piece, online messages on LinkedIn, messages on Instagram from complete strangers, and it was men and some women sharing their stories of prostate cancer, some of whom were soon to die, some of whom had had better luck and I just felt and I know it sounds a bit corny, but I just felt so privileged that these people shared their stories with me and I was able to connect with them. And so it was. I felt very honoured to was able to connect with them. So it was. I felt very honored to be able to write that piece and, yes, it was a very open and honest piece, but I thought it was quite important.
31:21
Yeah, I learned a lot. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I need to send it to a few people. It's useful.
31:27
I didn't know really about the prostate or prostates before. It never crossed my mind and, as I wrote in a piece, I had no symptoms. I didn't feel really about the prostate or prostate before, never crossed my mind and, as I wrote in a piece, I had no symptoms. I didn't feel ill and if it hadn't been for that blood test that my gp had done, I would never have known I had prostate cancer and whether they've caught it early enough I don't know. Yeah, I'm still in that process because I had the operation and unfortunately it came back quite soon afterwards. And then I did a course of radiotherapy and I'm on hormone therapy, which journey the words I found but still use myself. So, yeah, it's. If it's something that men need to be aware of, the prostate cancer is on the rise, it's. I think it's the second biggest killer of men in this country. So it's an important subject and men need to be aware of their prostate, what it does and how to test that it's doing okay for you.
32:13
Yeah, so I am very grateful that you shared it because I think that cancer touches most of our lives. I know both my grandparents died on my mom's side from cancer I'm sorry and my half-brother lost his wife to cancer two years ago. It was the end of the pandemic. Half-brother lost his wife to cancer two years ago it was the end of the pandemic. And I have a friend, as I mentioned to you, who was diagnosed only four days after. I joined a foundation called Pritak in Geneva, which is the Swiss branch of a new form of breast cancer testing that's developed by a gentleman called Dr Frank Hoffman in Germany. His work is called oh, I'm going to forget that now I'll have to double check, but it's all about using blind women who are taught how to manually test for much smaller tumors than what doctors can find.
33:08
And so I was sitting there at that table listening to a doctor and the rest of the board because it was a board meeting and I'm joining them for communication and I was thinking, gosh, she says one in four or one in eight. She was talking about the numbers and I was like none of my friends have been diagnosed with breast cancer and boom, yeah, that was a Tuesday. On the Friday night I was in tears behind my phone. That was a big video. The Friday night I was in tears behind my phone. That was a big. That was a big video.
33:36
The statistics are really shocking. One in two people will either have cancer or be affected by cancer. So it's a big thing and so I feel really happy talking about it. I also started a podcast with a friend of mine who has secondary breast cancer and unfortunately she's only 38 and her cancer is treatable but it's not curable and fingers crossed the treatment she's on at the moment. It's spread to her bones, it's everywhere. But the chemo she's on at the moment is holding it at bay and giving her longer than perhaps she was told she would have initially. So fingers crossed.
34:08
But we do the podcast together to raise awareness and also to make people feel part of a community and it can feel a bit lonely when you get diagnosed with cancer because there's so many questions you have and to hear other people's stories and experiences, tips and insights can be. It's a cancer community and actually do you know what? It's a really nice community. The people I meet and talk to are courageous and positive and inspiring, and so it sounds like a depressing podcast, but actually it's the sadness within it, but it's actually can fill you with joy. Sometimes we just hear how extraordinary some people are in the way they deal with these things.
34:48
Of course, and actually I was listening yesterday to the episode with Tessa I can't remember her last name the one who had the very rare form of eye cancer.
34:56
So she tells her story beautifully.
34:59
Yeah, her eye cancer is great.
35:01
Wow, it's an extraordinary thing. I never knew about eye cancer and to be told your eyes can have to be taken out three weeks after you've been diagnosed. And she just thought there was something wrong and went to the optician thinking it was her contact lenses. But, as Tessa said, it seems so medieval to be told that your eye is going to be taken out. But she I love the way, as you mentioned, that she runs a business and she approached it as a business. So she did spreadsheets of what the doctor said.
35:28
Before each meeting with the specialist She'd send them an email saying OK, I want to be discussing these six points, I don't want to hear about those four points. So she really it was boardroom cancer approach and everyone has different ways of dealing with it. I loved her story and her approach and attitude and also it was just fascinating hearing how she was given a false eye and how now she's going to have a 3D laser printed eye made for her. That was incredible, so how technology plays such an important part in treatments and ailments these days.
35:58
But she also tells her story in a way that's so compelling so compelling, isn't it, I know?
36:03
And she's very entertaining and she laughs her way through this even though it's this crazy operation, because it is crazy and you have to acknowledge that it's just crazy because suddenly you're not in control of your body and it's a really weird thing where you're not in control of your own body and there's some comical things that happen and some horrific things that happen and you have to embrace both of those.
36:24
Yeah, of course. So one of the things I wanted to ask you and perhaps I've missed one of the episodes where you talked about that but I wanted to ask you what were your thoughts about how to tell friends and family about your own diagnosis, what you heard from others? Because I've noticed in my own life I got estranged from a friend because her husband got prostate cancer, but I was not supposed to know. But people talked about it, but I was not supposed to know.
36:52
And then I wasn't sure when I was allowed to talk about it and then she thought I didn't care, so we got all very muddled up. Yeah, that's tough on all of you um, it's, it's okay, but I also understand that some people just don't feel ready to talk about it.
37:06
So no, absolutely. There are some people who don't tell anyone at all that they've got cancer, that they're ill and that that's how they like to deal with it. I obviously wrote a big piece for the saturday times magazine, so my approach did a podcast. That wasn't my approach. I thought it's all content, but everyone has a different way of dealing and everyone's way of dealing with it is is the right way. But I find it easier to share and to share it with other people.
37:31
But it's a hard thing to tell people because as soon as you tell someone you've got cancer, they think you're going to die. It's the truth and it really is the bogeyman disease, isn't it? And the thing that sort of really gets me is now that I have cancer. Every time I watch a movie or a TV program, if someone's going to die or be ill, it's always cancer. And I'm sitting there watching. Please, can't they have a different disease? Don't let it be cancer, because it always seems oh God, here we go. And they always look really ill. And of course, some people do look really ill with cancer, but I look quite healthy inside. My body's not particularly healthy, but I look healthy, which is a bit of a mind-blowing confusion. Sometimes you want to look how you feel. So everyone says, oh, you look really well. I think, oh, I really want to look ill, and they all feel sorry for me. They'll understand why. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But of course I'm glad that I do.
38:16
But there's so many different approaches and if someone told me, oh, I wouldn't tell anyone if I had cancer, and I suddenly thought, well, should I be ashamed of having cancer? What anyone chooses about their own illness is their own choice and the right choice for them. But for me I found it easier to talk about it. But it's hard telling people. It's hard telling your friends and your family, and it's very hard for people to understand.
38:37
And I think when I was first diagnosed, my husband was with me, but I did keep it to myself for a short while because I think that, weirdly, the storyteller in me I'm afraid it even comes out in these circumstances you think, okay, what's the story here? What am I going to tell people? How am I going to frame this? And so I had to work out what the story was. But first of all I had to work out what I felt it was, and then I was able to share it. I needed to know like it was a newspaper story. I needed to know what the feature was. What's the beginning, the middle, I haven't a clue what the end is, but I needed it's fascinating.
39:11
Well, we have a narrative brain. That's the one thing that we all have in common. But I also picked up on that in Tessa's story, because she went as far as also through her husband telling friends and family how they were supposed to talk about it, what she wanted to hear about and what words not to say, and I thought that was an interesting approach, because it is also the story that you're living, right, so true. I was quite inspired by how forward thinking she was. Again, I don't think that I would have thought of that, but I guess the point of the podcast is to also open people to other people's experiences, thoughts, ideas mistakes yeah, some you can adopt, some you can ignore, and Tessa was quite bossy about it in a way, wasn't she?
39:56
She said this is how you're going to talk to me and this is what I'll talk about. And I understand that, because when you get ill and you have cancer, all your friends and family very kindly ask you a ton of questions, but you suddenly get a bit exhausted of all the questions. Everyone expects quite long answers from a good place, but you get really tired of answering questions about your cancer or your illness and often you don't know the answers yourself. And there was someone who actually told me they said to copy and paste is going to be your best friend during this process, and they were absolutely right. You can just send the same reply to everyone, but it does get wearying talking not talking about the illness generally, but answering questions as what did the doctor say, what did the specialist say? And you never want to know, are you going to get better and will you live? And often you don't know the answer. I still don't know the answer two years later, and so sometimes you feel a bit pressurized, not knowing the answers that you're being asked.
40:42
I wanted to ask you about your friendship with Sarah, because A she's really wonderful, she's I love her. She's extraordinary, it's really funny because I've listened to you guys so much like I feel like I'm in the room with you oh, poor you.
40:54
I'm so sorry about that. I apologize.
40:57
You sound like having a grand old time talking about some difficult things, especially when you guys started talking about the intimacy part and how to, because she's trying to date as well, which I think is really wonderful she is.
41:08
She's got a boyfriend now and it's going incredibly well. Who knew? You know you've got incurable cancer and you can still find love and have a wonderful time. But she is amazing. She lives near me in the Lake District and she contacted me on Instagram, having heard through mutual friends I was ill and asked if I wanted to meet her and I thought not really, because I don't know you in a nice way, I don't want to talk to a stranger and then I bumped into her in the pub. It's quite small and latest. You always bump into people and just this bundle of energy and life and positivity and so we just bonded very quickly.
41:39
And what's quite nice sometimes when you've got cancer, it's quite nice to talk to other people who've got cancer. Sometimes they understand some elements of it more than people who don't and you can feel you can offload and be a bit more honest, because you don't necessarily talk about the possibility of dying or that sort of stuff with your loved ones. Sometimes it's easy to talk about with someone you know less well. So we just talked a lot about cancer and shared all stories and insights and things we'd heard and that's when we thought you know what we should. A, we thought why don't? We could do a podcast and share this and let other people share their stories?
42:08
And also the thing for Sarah was she isn't married, she doesn't have children and she's 38. And we don't know how long she's got. The thing that made her sad wasn't the fact that she didn't have children, she wasn't that old. The two things that made her sad was A, she was doing really well in her career and she was going to get to the top and now she won't and so she was sad about that. And the other thing she talked 38. She'd want to just disappear and die and be and that would be that. And so I thought, if we do a podcast, that gives her a legacy. If we do, we did.
42:38
I did another cover story for Saturday Times Magazine to come out and that therefore, she was on the cover of a magazine and that was another legacy and wonderful things for her mother to have. You know, when Sarah eventually passed away, and so it was legacy and held that came up with the podcast ideas, really, and that's when you can use your contacts and your storytelling to help others. I don't just sound kind, I'm not really kind at all. This year is my year of kindness and I'm going back to a complete evil person. Again in 2025, I'll be exhausted of kindness, so I don't want anyone to mistake me for a kind person. I'm just in kind things for one year.
43:15
Okay, that sounds like a plan. You have a lot going on with all of that. Zolidex is it called?
43:22
Oh, Zolidex, yeah, so Zolidex is. So one of the things that feeds prostate cancer is testosterone. So having had the surgery that wasn't entirely successful in the radiotherapy, then, to be doubly sure, they put you on hormone therapy. So they put me on it for two years and it's, it cuts off your testosterone, but really, basically it gives you the menopause. I have all the symptoms of the menopause. All women have this without cancer hands up. Wow, unbelievable how much women put up with and and complaining far less than men do. But also there's a lot of side effects, not very nice side effects, because it's almost like chemical castration and so your body changes. You have no sex drive at all, you have no energy, so there's lots of horrible things that happen with it. I loathe it, I hate it, and two years is a long time.
44:07
It's a long time to have that.
44:09
It's a long time. I've done it a year and I went to see my oncologist last week and I said I'm coming off, I'm not doing anymore. I hate it and even though that's a little bit risky. But also, sometimes you just got to own your life and own your body. And when you're on zolidex it masks the signs of cancer. So also when you're on it, they don't know what's happening. The cancer could have gone, it could have grown, it could have spread. They have not a clue when I'm on Zolidex. So I want it to come out of my system, which it will in a few months' time, and then we can see what the cancer's done, whether it's gone, whether it's spread, and then we can come up with a different treatment approach. I'm really excited, even though it's a little bit crazy, to come off Zolidex. Yeah.
44:46
I felt very connected to you because a year ago I did my first IVF trial and because I have uterine fibroids, they gave me the French equivalent of Zoladex. Except that it's so it lasts three months. A dose lasts three months and it's an injection. And it was really funny because my gynecologist assistant was she was really put off by the thing. She did not know this drug, she did not like it was very thick, she had to mix things together. She was just really not happy to be injecting me and I was trying to calm her down, which was not the really funny thing.
45:20
But, like days before, I'd given my dog a chemical castration. So I was walking around just thinking oh, Anne, that's terrible, I know it's terrible.
45:29
But also the reason why I know it's very similar to what you've got is that I read the fine print. It's the same drug that's being used in France for people with prostate cancer. Ah, okay, so it just blocks basically all hormone production. It was a terrible three months. I also got the night sweats, the kind of which someone it looks like someone has dunked you in water oh, it's awful, I know. And then when you dry off, you're shivering in the corner.
45:54
Yeah, exactly, it's so bizarre, isn't it? And the hot flushes and the mood swings, and I got anxiety as well, which?
45:58
was really fun, but coming out of nowhere, and thank God I practiced meditation because otherwise I would have thought I was going mad. I should be doing that.
46:06
Yeah, that was a sensible approach. It's a shocker. Sarah had breast cancer and she came off it. She hated it too, but it's very important that we say that zolidex saves a lot of lives and a lot of people are able to tolerate it. Usually people who get prostate cancer are older than me, and the older you are, the less testosterone you have and therefore the side effects are less strong. Because I'm young and I use inverted commas in hospital terms, not in anyone else's terms always ask, I always laugh and they say you're quite young. No, I'm not really old, but in their terms, I not in anyone else's terms. I always laugh and they say oh, you're quite young. No, I'm not really old, but in their terms, I'm a nephal. There's more testosterone that you're fighting away from your body and therefore your body hates it more than if you're older.
46:42
That's interesting. I did not realize that.
46:44
Yeah, but some people tolerate it and it does keep some people living for many years with cancer.
46:56
So don't put people off taking it, but for me, hate it. It's also interesting to let people know what that about this part of the treatment which I didn't understand or know about. I, like most people, I just thought of chemotherapy as being like the thing. I think you did one and you're going to do a second episode about the treatments and I think that's really helpful so people understand like a breadth of what are the most standard treatments. Yeah, there's so many different treatments exactly.
47:16
And I haven't done chemotherapy, I've done radiotherapy. But there are so many different types of chemotherapy which I didn't know until I got to know Sarah, and so dozens and dozens of different types of chemo, new ones being invented all the time which hopefully will help people that the current ones don't. But yeah, there's, in a weird way, I looked upon my and I'm not being facetious I looked upon what I was going through as a story and I know it's weird, but that was my coping mechanism. And I've never been to a hospital before until all this began. And to have your abdomen cut open with five metal arms digging down through it to take your prostate out, I thought, wow, I've never had surgery before, so it was painful and very weird, but also quite interesting. And then when I I basically have to do radio therapy, I thought never done radio. So I found it quite fascinating trying all these things. Even though, weirdly, it was to make me live, it was still I.
48:01
I did take myself out to look upon it objectively and think, oh, this I turned it into in my mind. I thought I'm gonna turn this into a story stroke hobby. I thought cancer is going to be a hobby. I'm not going to let it be an illness. I'm not going to annoy more be an illness. I'm not going to let it annoy me more than it should do. I'm not going to let it get in the way of too much, although it has a habit of trying to do that. I'm just going to look upon it as a hobby. Crazy, but that's how I manage it.
48:21
But it's interesting because you're not letting it define you. You're putting a distance.
48:27
It's an interesting point. I have let it define me over the last year about writing, about doing the podcast, but I don't want it to rule me is what I try to achieve?
48:36
Yeah, of course. Now, one of the questions that came up as I was listening to you, which and if I ever speak to Sarah, which perhaps I should follow up with her as well and meet her what I wanted to ask you is how do you, how's your relationship with your body?
48:52
Oh, I never want to speak to someone who's quite vain. You've become less vain, I can tell you, because you're prodded, cut open, zapped. Everyone's looking at all your bits the whole time. So you've certainly become less self-conscious about your body. But one of the weird things about the treatments that I'm on is your body just does things that have nothing to do with you. So I put on two stone. I've that's nothing to do with you, so I put on two stone and I've just managed to.
49:14
I've just been on a diet for six weeks and I've managed to get rid of most of it, which probably isn't particularly healthy, but anyway. And then your body hair falls out with the radiotherapy and then it falls out with the hormone therapy and then you put little pats of fat cane I think I'm going to get rid of and they're all part of the treatment. So you have no control and it's. And you also talk about the sweats. So it's really weird how your body becomes this.
49:36
Sometimes it feels like it's not your friend, because my body was my friend for a long time and then suddenly it developed prostate cancer and then it did this and then it did that. So you sometimes feel like you're a puppet and you're being pulled by all these strings and you think, my god, it's now doing this, and I'm now doing that, and I'm doing that. And then you have to try and get claw back control, which I went on this diet, and why are you dieting? You've got cancer, sorry. What are you worrying about that for? And? But that's my way of regaining a bit of control is trying to keep my body as it was as much as possible, but it's made me. What's interesting and is I've really struggled with the vanity side, or should you care about how you look when you're getting through it and getting through?
50:14
I think that's super important it's.
50:16
It is important, it's a good subject and you know I do a grooming column and for a few months I did stop doing that column at the times because I just couldn't bring myself to write about skin cream or Botox or whatever. And you know, when I was gay it just seemed tricky. And then I also find it hard that I thought it was a bit weird. I'm doing a podcast that comes out on Thursday about cancer and on Tuesday the wee piece in the times about a massage that makes your bum bigger or whatever. So slightly exaggerating. But you know what. I have struggled with that. But what's been interesting with the podcast and it's mostly women I think that we've spoken to everyone cares about how they look when people lose their hair. They'll all share all these amazing tips about the great wigs or hair systems or ways of keeping your hair and how makeup makes them feel, how clothes and the eyelashes. And all the women I spoke to really care and I suddenly realized it's your cancer, doesn't? You don't care what you look like anymore. In fact, it's really important to try and look like yourself as much as you can, if that's what makes you feel better and if you feel better on the outside, you might feel better on the inside too.
51:15
I have struggled with that because I have I've been developing a skincare line with a doctor on a hardy stream. We've been working on this for three years and it was meant to launch this year but I put it on hold. A because doing all the treatments and also I don't know if I can again do a podcast right cancer on Thursday and then launch a skin cream on Tuesday. It's just and everyone says that's my problem. No one else is going to look upon it in that way, but I haven't quite. I put it back to next year. It's just. A, I don't need the stress of launching a brand this year, sure. And B, I do struggle with the caring about how you look cancer thing. That's my problem, not a problem, it's my thing that I have to work at in my head.
51:52
I think, as you said before, it's just do what feels right for you, right.
51:56
That's the most important yeah, and it doesn't feel quite right yet, even I know it should. I'll get there.
52:01
I'll work through it yeah, I think you can let go of the should.
52:08
I know, but you know to you early on you were talking about cancer and work and how it affects you, and I think that one of the hardest things I've found with having cancer is how it affects your work, because you don't have the energy and you don't know what treatment you're going to be doing and in December, when this Zolidex comes out of my system, they might find that the cancer spreads to my bones and I'll need to do chemotherapy or radiotherapy or whatever. So it's very hard to plan because I miss working and I actually miss offices. I know a lot of people don't miss offices. I loved offices and I'd love to do and consultancy is fine, but I'd be more in control.
52:40
You know what and when you're a consultant you're not really in control. You're suggesting things and helping with things, but you're not really making the decisions and implementing them fully and I miss that. But I think it'd be unfair of me to go and start a job where in six months time I might have to leave it again, and so that's tough. You can't commit, you can't plan, and that's what I find very hard about this. Almost the hardest thing is you can't.
53:00
You don't know what your future is yeah, it's like a limbo it is limbo and all the oncologists they say just imagine it, all's going to be good. But that's easier said than done.
53:13
I also wanted to ask you about nutrition, because I know it came up a lot on many of the episodes I listened to as something that get wielded around, and I think you even said on the podcast and perhaps in in the interview in the pieces you wrote, that one of the first things that you did after you got the diagnosis is you started just to eat healthier and stuff. Is this something that you felt has had a real impact on how you feel, or has it been your friend or your frenemy?
53:43
Yeah, well, good thing. So yeah, when I was first diagnosed, of course I brought every single book about how to beat cancer, and there's lots of nutrition books. Lots of people said tomatoes will cure cancer or cabbage a day will make it go away, which is all lovely, but of course there's certain foods that feed cancer, and that's sugar, does feed cancer for sure. So I went on the vegan diet and I cut out the sugar and I did everything that I was supposed to lost a lot of weight, made me quite thin, so I don't actually look ill, and then the cancer came back. So I thought I'll sod the hell't work. I always ate quite healthy, to be fair, but then I began to eat lots of chocolate minstrels, and I think when your energy zapped.
54:20
I love the story with the minstrels. Okay, now I get it. Love a chocolate minstrel.
54:23
But when your sort of weight fluctuates, energy dips, you crave sugar, so you think it's a false energy high it gives you. So then I did have cravings for chocolate. I probably did eat too many chocolates. And then also I put on weight with the hormone therapy and now I'm on, I fast. Now I already have breakfast. Basically, fasting sounds better than saying I don't have breakfast. I much prefer that Sounds really cool. And then I just have protein for lunch and this is protein and a few vegetables, but I don't have any sugar. No potatoes, no bread. So I've changed that. But that's, to be honest, more for weight than for.
54:58
There's a lot that people tell you and you have to sieve some of it out and you have to edit it down. Also, some of the things that people tell you to do and they all come from a good place, but you'll just have a really rubbish life. It would just be so boring and I would prefer to have a shorter fun life than a longer boring life. If I'm honest and I did I Googled, spent hours Googling wine and cancer, and then eventually I found a website that said yeah, it's great, good, I believe that website, so I do still drink wine. It's hard. Though it's hard, it does have sugar in it and of course, ideally one wouldn’t. You've got to work out a balance where you're living, not just surviving yeah, of course I wanted to actually ask you about something else.
55:41
That's also about living, but it seems to me when I read your columns that somehow within them there's a love letter to your doctors and the NHS in general. Was I reading it right?
56:00
yes, I love the NHS. I, when I had my initial operation, I went private because the surgeon said you've got the bad cancer. It's a really aggressive, high grade one. So, if you do, if you go on the NHS, it'll probably be done in about eight weeks. If you go private, it'll be done in three weeks. And to do what you've got you need to do the three-week ones. I thought that.
56:19
But then after that I went to the NHS. It would be too expensive to do radio therapy and continue everything doing it privately. And my God, I know there's generosity from the nurses and the doctors and the oncologists and when you do radiotherapy you go every day. For seven weeks you have radiotherapy and they make it as easy as possible for you. And it's quite tricky when it's radiotherapy, with the process, quite a lot of complications you have to prepare for each day. But everyone was so smiley and so lovely and I loved them. And when I was doing my radiotherapy, unfortunately it was another complication. So I was in hospital for a week and I was in a ward of 25 men and there was holes in the sheets. But the nurses, who don't march and don't get treated particularly well by some of the patients were angels and they were so lovely and I literally you're right I fell in love with them all and I love the NHS and I love the people who work for it and I'm in awe of their capability, empathy and generosity.
57:22
I'm honest, it's been a marvelous thing that's come out of this is to see so much goodness it's one of the things that I felt coming through from each of the conversations with the guests that you had on the podcast. I feel like everybody also had that same level of awe and gratitude for the medical care that they received. I'm glad that I asked you about that, because I know that the medical personnel needs to hear the praise that they can get.
57:49
No, they do. There's always a few bad experiences that people have. There's a couple of things happened to me that weren't great, but, on the whole, amazing. So very grateful, very lucky to be looked after so well.
57:59
One of the other things I wanted to ask you about was the semantics, the vocabulary around the disease that is, the cancer. First, because so a friend of mine was diagnosed when she was 26, 27 years old. She survived, but I think the big difficulty for her this was a while ago, so I don't think the support was built in as much as it is now. But first she did not understand most of the terminology around it and so, strangely enough, my dad, who was a gynecologist, ended up being her consultant so he could translate for her, so he would be able to just give her layman's term, just bring out the context for her in a way that she could receive it. But beyond that, there's a lot of words that can feel really wrong or hurt you or irk you, trigger you. You had a great conversation with Stephen Fry, but the two of you pondered around the cancer journey or the reason why not to call it that.
59:00
Can you tell me a bit about your experience and what words work for you?
59:06
It's really hard for friends, family and strangers who meet people with cancer to get it right, and I got it wrong in the past and it's quite stressful. So I also want the podcast to help those people. And you know what I can remember when I was 32, my first friend got cancer and she died and she was a godmother of one of my sons. But she and I my wife handled it brilliantly. But I was nervous talking to her about it when I knew she only had a few months to live. And I remember I was walking the kids to her car and I said, god, how are you feeling, ruth? And she suddenly snapped at me and said, in my head or in my body? And I went both, but that wasn't a question she wanted on that day. And it's not always possible to get it right, but it always made me very wary of thinking about what people want to hear when they're getting through these things.
59:52
And, as you say, some of the terminology is a bit rubbish. I mean, thank god people are now don't call it terminal camp what they do, but it's been got. You know, people are beginning to be incurable. It's better than terminal. It's such a brutal word, isn't it and a lot of people with cancer don't like battling cancer because someone always loses a battle. And then why did they? They were a loser, so that's not very uh popular. But even as you have, we discussed this even right, even how you or I'm so sorry, you can go wrong, yeah, and I said to someone as I talked about, so I'm so sorry, and I said why are you sorry?
01:00:25
it wasn't your fault I know I love that because I always say sorry and I appreciated the way that he framed it.
01:00:31
He was like he did because you have sorrow for their predicament, exactly, but again, it's how someone wants to hear it. But it can make you uncomfortable, worrying about getting it right, and that's how we talked about some of the yeah, definitely terminal and battle. We've particularly got the thumbs down from Stephen Fry and from Sarah. She doesn't even like saying chemotherapy because it just conjures up the horrible thoughts, so she calls it treatment, because treatment sounds like it's making you better. Chemotherapy makes you ill to make you better. So you know what Sarah's advice is because she's deeper into this than I am is just ask the person with cancer how they want to talk about it and they can tell you. And you can say do you want to talk about your cancer today? And they can say yes or no. Or you can say how should we approach this today? And just let them lead it, and that's the safest way to do it.
01:01:18
I think, yeah, I know it's going to sound like a funky thing to ask now, but how about treatments and what's the place of treatments when you're in the middle of treatment? Because, to be fair, I really enjoyed reading about your treatments. Is there room for you to do things for yourself? What do you do for yourself to make you feel better beyond the fasting?
01:01:40
I do use a lot of skin creams. I always have done, and I have had Botox in the last year, and I did a toy where I said why do you care? If you have some wrinkles and you have so many injections that things get into your body at the moment, why elect to have another one? But in a way you think in for a penny, in for a lot. But actually, what I've just done on Monday I'm doing again on Monday.
01:02:00
I've had lens replacement surgeries because I usually wear glasses. You know where. They take the lens out of your eye and replace it with another one. So I did one eye this week and I'm doing the other eye on Monday, which is why I'm not wearing glasses now and that's a vanity thing, but also a practical thing. For people who don't know the Lake District. It just rains almost every day. It's the worst weather in the world and if you wear glasses in the rain, they just get covered in raindrops and you can't wear windscreen wipers on your glasses. And I do a lot of hiking and a bit of mountain climbing and you can't really wear glasses when they're covered in rain, and so then you put your glasses in your pocket, and you want to look at your phone to see which direction you're going. It doesn't work. So, I'll block this. So, I've done that. So that's a vanity stroke, practical thing. I am less interested in those things because of course I think it's good.
01:02:47
Yeah, sure, that makes sense, yeah.
01:02:50
Each to their own.
01:02:54
I also wanted to note that in your last piece for the Times, you talked about death literacy, which I thought was something that you picked up on Radio 4, that you thought was something that we could all talk about.
01:03:07
Because, of course, the thing that's very tough when someone gets diagnosed is that immediate sort of connection to possible death, and I think we spend most of our time trying to ignore the fact we're all going to die. I don't know if you've seen them. Last year at TED in Vancouver, I think the talk of the week was by a death doula. She was very wonderful and if you don't want to watch it, let me give you the cliff notes.
01:03:34
She said eat the cake just for anyone she hasn't said a single client who regretted eating cake, but also on that topic you wrote. So, after you got that bad blood infection after the radiotherapy, you wrote your own, not your obituary.
01:03:58
I did. I wrote my own eulogy. Eulogy there you go. It was one of the nicest weekends I've had. I just planned my entire funeral and wrote my eulogy.
01:04:05
I'd love to ask you about that. I'm a bit of a control freak.
01:04:07
I am a bit of a control freak and, again, the story, I like to control the narrative. So I wanted the funeral to be fun and great and so I planned it all. I age and so I found it all. I didn't know whether I was going to pop off in a week or so or not, and then I wrote a eulogy and it was a tongue-in-cheek eulogy but to be read by a friend of mine and I just never thought of having to read this glowing, saint-like description of me that wasn't remotely true but that I'd written. It have to be because I died and it was. I bequeathed him to read it at my funeral and it just really made me laugh. When I wrote this eulogy about how, basically how, I should have been pwned which I still slightly believe and it was quite fun planning my I think I got a bit too excited about it, but I agree with you.
01:04:48
I just everyone dies, everyone is dying. After you're born, very quickly, slowly begin to die and we shouldn't pretend it doesn't happen and I think it makes it scarier by not talking about it. Then I became ill. Of course, I explored mortality in a lot more depth and people don't like you talking about it, but I wanted to talk about it and I didn't. Really, I don't still mind thought of dying because I've had a great life, can't complain. I've had a great time, been so lucky. So it'd be really churlish to complain about the fact I was going to die. And it seems churlish to quibble over dates. We're all going to die, so why quibble over when? And I really strongly believe that. But you have to be careful because some people get really distressed hearing about it and I did talk to my sons about him.
01:05:30
I got slightly overexcited. I took one of my sons to the church. I wanted my funeral and I was going now that's where I want the choir to be singing this and that's where my friend johnny's going to sing the song and I was really excited and he looked horrified and I realized I had overshared with my son at that moment. So you do have to get the balance right. But people need to talk about death and not be afraid of it. It's not something. You have to be yay, I'm gonna die soon, but it's gonna happen and be prepared for it and know about it. So I'm glad that there's this movement to people knowing more about dying and how you die.
01:06:00
And I don't want to be in pain. I'm not particularly scared of you know, I'm 58, I've had a good time. I cannot complain.
01:06:07
Thanks for sharing your views on that. It strikes me that for someone who also likes to create control in her life, I see how putting it together myself and just getting an outline ready it would empower me in some way, whereas the disease and the treatments can make you feel disempowered.
01:06:28
That's so true. This gives you that sense of control exactly.
01:06:31
And.
01:06:31
I just thought if I die, my husband might very well meaningly, just not quite get it right on how I want that phenotype. So, I just feel so relaxed that it's on my phone in notes and he knows it's there. He's not allowed to see it until I pop off. But, if I die soon. He's got the details.
01:06:50
That's great. The pendant to this death literacy was and I don't know if I got this right, but back to the semantics and the vocabulary and how to talk about it I was thinking that maybe what you and Sarah are doing with your work is creating a cancer literacy opportunity for people who want to find out more about it, because, again, I find that sometimes it's so difficult to approach a topic and if we never talk about it, if we never listen to it, if we don't listen to each other, and so I think that it is wonderful to have for those who need it, to have this, almost this window opening to hear I think so, and you're right.
01:07:33
That's what we wanted to do. It was just let people know what it's like and take away the taboo of it. Really, it's just a thing that happens, and it's a thing that happens quite a lot, and the same way that we can talk about relationships or talk about snacks is talk about illness. It's a part of a lot of people's lives.
01:07:50
Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate the work that both you and Sarah do, and I love your writing, so I'm looking forward to seeing what else you write next, whatever the topic may be. Is there anything else that you want to add for our listeners before I move on to my closing questions?
01:08:07
No, I just think that if anyone has someone they know or love who's living with cancer, is the charities like Macmillan, cancer Support and Breast Cancer. Now there are so many amazing helplines, and they are really useful and sometimes you just want to ring a stranger on the end of the phone and say I'm feeling this. Has anyone else felt this? And there are forums, so there is always help out there. It doesn't have to be within your immediate circle if you're worried about burdening them and, yeah, there's some great support out there if you need it.
01:08:38
Thank you so much Pleasure Now.
01:08:41
So you may or may not have understood about me that in my spare time I'm a mindfulness meditation teacher which is a separate calling, and it's true that it's given me probably a different perspective on life, because it's very different from the work I've done until now, and I also had not expected how it would transform my lens on life in general work and life and so I like to ask my guests when I talk about mindfulness, I talk about presence, about awareness, about how you feel grounded in your own skin, or perhaps other people would say aligned with yourself. Grounded in your own skin, or perhaps other people would say aligned with yourself. And I wanted to ask you what are things that have helped you feel good in your own skin, particularly in times of treatment or in general? What are your go-to things, whatever they may be?
01:09:32
Friends. Love my friends. Friends are so important to me. I have a great family, but I think particularly gay men. Your friends become your found family and the friendships I've had with so many people for so long. I really love my friends and you have different friends for different occasions, don't you? The ones you moan to, the ones you make laugh, and my friends are really good at teasing me and particularly about cancer. They make some really good inappropriate jokes, which I love and that cheers me up. I don't like sad face, I like funny face. So I would say my friends not even through this, but always my friends are the most important thing to me. My sons, obviously, but beyond that is my fan family, my friendship group.
01:10:16
How wonderful. Now, what is your favorite word? And by that that not just because it sounds lovely, but a word that you could tattoo on yourself and I know you have a big tattoo I don't think there's a word on it three um but a word you could live with.
01:10:28
Oh, hard question, good question. The weird thing is, having done the podcast and I don't know whether you find this as weird listening to yourself on the podcast, because everyone hates listening to their own voice mostly but you also notice the words that you use that you didn't notice you use, and obviously when you're recording a podcast you always try and get rid of the um. But the word I've noticed in in the podcast I do, that I use the most is a banal word. I just I always get oh, wow, wow, wow, and it's because I hear so many amazing stories and then I think think really, the best you can come up with is wow. I've grown to love the wow, so I think it'd be wow because, wow, life's amazing, wow, extraordinary things happen to us all and wow, we hear some great stories. So, weirdly, I think it would be wow. Also, I think it would look quite nice aesthetically.
01:11:12
Yeah, it's pretty and it's also interesting, as you say that. I realize I say it quite a lot. It also is one of those few words and right now I can't think of any others that describes awe, isn't it? Yeah?
01:11:24
it does, and I wish I would say them also. I love the word discombobulated, I love the word effervescent, because it brings such joy and thought, doesn't it? But I think it would have to be banal. Wow, good one. What does connection mean to you? That's back to the friends, I think, and that's the connection you have with your friends. And also, storytelling is about connection, isn't it? And telling people a story and engaging them. And when you can see someone read a story and their eyes go slightly bigger, or you can even see with a digital story, you can tell whether someone read the whole story or not, and I love that.
01:11:57
And I used to find it hard with print magazines. You'll send a magazine out into the world. You didn't know what page they read or what story they read or how long they read it for, whether they smiled, whereas the lovely thing about content online is you do know quite a lot about journey. You can't see their face, but you can see how their behavior, and so that feedback you get from content online is a wonderful connection. That's a relatively new connection in this world that's awesome.
01:12:19
I never thought about that. What song best represents you?
01:12:24
oh god, that's so hard because you just want to choose a song that you love the most, and most of my would be trashy 80s disco songs, tiffany's I think I'm alone now, but I think I'd have to a pet shop boy's song. They were the soundtrack of my youth and my life going forward, and I saw them play at the Royal Opera House a couple of weeks ago and they were brilliant. I was very weird because Neil Tennant said oh, this is our first single 41 years ago. Oh, my god, I'm so old. I was around for a single 41 years ago in a band I still listen to.
01:12:52
But I think of their songs, if I had to choose, one would be for me probably for the first half of my life. It would be Pet Shop Boys it's a Sin, because I had quite a good time and maybe for the second half of my life being Boring, which is actually my favorite Pet Shop Boys song, which actually is about not being boring, but it's about how life evolves and things happen to you and never thinking that you're going to run out of time, and I really love the lyrics for that song.
01:13:16
So, yeah, that's awesome so I don't think I've told you, but I am curating a playlist with the answers of all my guests and I will.
01:13:23
Oh really, yeah, it's really cool.
01:13:25
Oh good, that's a good idea what is the sweetest thing that's ever happened to you oh, that's easy, and that would be the birth of my two sons.
01:13:37
These sweet, round little baby boys came out of my wonderful ex-wife and the sweetest thing I've ever seen, and they remain that, that's gorgeous. I'm just lucky. You know, I was married to a woman and I have two sons, and I'm married to a man and I really am quite greedy. I just try everything, don't I? But I've been so lucky.
01:13:56
Yes, I must mention, I wife your ex-wife's column, religiously all right, yeah good, no, she's great what is the secret superpower that you have?
01:14:05
now I say secret, aka you've not told me about it yet oh okay, I say I'm quite good at getting stories out to people, which sort of makes good journalists, but I think my secret superpower is I'm very good at forgetting secrets. So when my friends tell me a big secret, I'm so worried about spilling it. I've got a few friends who are actors in the film industry, so their secrets have to remain secrets.
01:14:30
And so I just make myself forget it, and so their secret's always safe with me because I can't remember it. And then they'll tell me again and I'll be all excited by the secret once more because I've completely forgotten it. So weirdly, it's quite a useful superpower.
01:14:42
That's a really good superpower and you're helping them because they clearly want to share with you, but then you've forgotten the information.
01:14:48
Yeah, and they've shared and then it's gone into ether. They're fine.
01:14:51
Brilliant what. What is a favourite book that you can share with us?
01:14:57
Oh, I have two favourite books. I'm not sure I could choose one. Truman Capote's In Cold Blood is just the most crisply written prose, the most brilliant piece of investigative journalism, and brings a story alive with not with a slight aloofness, but also takes you into the room and the minds of those two guys who murdered the Clutter family that the book writes about. It's a brilliant piece of writing. I love Truman Capote, even though he was a little bit naughty towards the end of his life Probably. The other book was Bruce Chatwin's what Am I Doing here? And he was an amazing travel writer who sadly died of HIV complications in his late 40s. But he was a brilliant travel writer and I haven't done that much travel so I can live vicariously through his books. But again, his objective, crisp, evocative prose like Capote's. They're my two favorite writers. Brilliant books Chatwins you can dip into, because it's all different essays and some are funny and some are extraordinary, and I totally recommend them both.
01:15:56
I totally want to read that now. Okay, thank you Good. Where is somewhere that you visited that you felt really had an impact on who you are today?
01:16:07
Boringly, that is going to be the Cancer Centre at Guy's Hospital, and I'll tell you A they've treated me. B the people, as I said already, are lovely. But the weird thing is I often have to go there and I walk in and they've designed it. It's all colourful and it's light and it's airy, it's spacious, it's so brilliantly and thoughtfully designed. But it's really weird and no one understands this. But it's my happy place. I walk in there and I'm happy. Isn't that weird? But I just think it's so full of kind, helpful people and I I literally I'm excited when I go in there, which is sane, and everyone thinks I'm mad, but it's my happy place and I think that's changed me a lot physically and mentally. That's amazing.
01:16:45
A bit of a weird answer, but it's true imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself. You've got poor me. What most important advice do you think that this future you needs to give to current or present state you?
01:17:06
in a way, I think the advice I give I wouldn't really need to give because I'd already have followed it, but it sounds bit and that would be just do it, which is the Nike slogan, I think, isn't it, Nike? Just do it. Yeah, just do it. And having jumped into all sorts of hot pots of madness and fun and craziness, I've never regretted a single thing I've done, even though some have led to some awful situations. But I married different people Amazing. I've had children, I've been gay, I've been straight. I just do it. Experience things, try everything, try everything. Never say no because you never know how long you've got what's around the corner. Just love and experience every element of life and make mistakes.
01:17:46
So just do it that's gorgeous yeah, it's a shame it's a Nike slogan, but they're right, it's a good one. It's a good one. Yeah, it's done well for Nike yeah and um.
01:17:58
Now this brings us to my last and my favorite question, which is what brings you happiness?
01:18:04
oh, oh, okay. So I moved to the lake district, beginning of lockdown, as I said, and I took up mountain climbing and it's these amazing, the highest mountain, England, Scarfell Pikes. In in the lake district there's another one for mountain called hell vellum, and I started mountain climbing and particularly during lockdown it was so quiet, and the weather was amazing.
01:18:21
That first lockdown, I think, climbing to the top of the mountain and looking down, everything's small and the specks below you and I think that's the most wonderful because it and this sounds like everything, but it makes you realize how important unimportant you You're, just a small, little pebble in a mountain and weirdly, that releases you. You think, oh, I'm just something that's going to be a little part of a mountain and a piece of nature and landscape, and it's quite humbling and it's also beautiful and you just realize that whatever happens, whatever crazy things, whatever badly people behave, whatever terrible things that happen in the world, world nature always wins over and it continues and it beats us all and it's magnificent and it's strong and it's unwavering and puts you in your place, which is actually, weirdly, a really nice thing to happen thank you, it's funny you're reminding me.
01:19:10
I read not long ago, but I can't remember where, that one of the things that can make us feel most connected is when we realize we're part of them, like a tiny piece in the much wider whole.
01:19:23
Yeah, interesting. Instead of diminishing you, it somehow enlarges you. Yeah, you just realize we're all little bits of a wonderful thing and whatever we do, we're just there and then we go and it's fine. Everything continues without us, takes the pressure off.
01:19:41
You don't have to achieve amazing things. Jeremy, thank you so much for being here for this conversation. Through our really hilarious tech troubles including my computer that decided to change location.
01:19:56
Ran down the street with these giant headphones on, looking insane. I'm glad it worked out.
01:20:03
I really appreciated everything that you shared, and I really enjoyed the work that you and Sarah do, and I'm looking forward to continuing to listen, not just for my friend, just because it's a wonderful podcast to listen to, and we know that this disease is part of many of our lives, so I encourage everybody to discover it.
01:20:22
Thank you for having me on your rather wonderful podcast. It was very flattering to be asked to be on it. Thank you so much for having me.
01:20:27
It's a pleasure and I hope that I'll get to see you sometime soon. Let me know I will be here.
01:20:31
I'll make sure I'm here. Okay, take care. All right, Anne, thank you very much have a great time. I'll speak to you soon. I will too, and you Thanks a lot. Bye, bye.
01:20:40
So, friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice, and if you'd like to connect with me, you can find me @Annvi on Threads and on Instagram on Instagram and Anne V Muhlethaler on LinkedIn. If you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes or on Instagram, @_Outoftheclouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website outoftheclouds.com. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the Metta View, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, conscious communication and the future of work. That's the Metta View with two Ts themettaviewcom. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe and take care.