In this episode of Out of the Clouds, host Anne Mühlethaler welcomes Joanna Bloor, a creative thinker and self-proclaimed "Potentialist" who has spent decades helping people and organisations unlock their untapped potential. With a background spanning from selling high-end swimwear to pioneering work in emerging technology during the dot-com era, Joanna brings a unique perspective on how we buy and sell human potential in today's world.
The conversation begins with Joanna's transformative journey from moving from England to Texas at 15 (going from "Hogwarts without boys or magic to Americana") to her pivotal moment entering the tech world in 1995 when "nobody had a rule book." She shares how these experiences taught her that future you is who people want to get to know and shaped her approach to helping others articulate their potential.
At the heart of the discussion is Joanna's revolutionary framework for understanding potential. She explains her concept that humans are essentially "emerging technology" - complex, upgradeable, and often misunderstood products that we buy and sell using outdated methods like resumes and job descriptions. Her famous principle that "every decision made about you and your opportunities is made in a room that you're not in" becomes the launching point for a deep dive into how to make yourself "easy to buy."
The conversation takes a delightful turn as Joanna deconstructs the Cinderella story, which is the heart of her book, Tales of Potential, revealing how she reframed the fairy tale princess to reveal a strategic marketing genius who understood the importance of leaving the right "marketing materials" (the glass slipper) behind. This leads to a rich discussion about authenticity, power dynamics in professional settings, and why women need to shift from playing non-zero sum games to positive sum games - essentially, making more pie rather than fighting over slices.
Joanna shares practical advice for people who want to unlock insights to better talk about their own potential, including her "three words exercise" for discovering how others perceive you, and discusses the four power dynamics at play in any interaction: being liked, wanted, invited, or honored.
The episode concludes with Joanna's vision for bringing more magic into the corporate world, including her dream of standing on stage unironically in a sequin ball gown with a wand to help people see the potential in themselves and others.
A warm, funny and deeply insightful conversation, which is sure to leave you thinking differently about your own potential. Happy listening!
Connect with Joanna:
Resources mentioned:
Books Joanna recommends:
Other references:
00:04
Hi, hello, bonjour and namaste. And this is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I'm your host, Anne Muhlethaler. So this June marks the fifth anniversary of Out of the Clouds and it's really exciting to be able to celebrate with an exceptional conversation with Joanna Bloor. Joanna is an applied futurist, a thought provoker and self-proclaimed potentialist who has spent her career helping leaders and innovators navigate the space between the unknown and the possible. Joanna is someone who defies being put in a box or an easy categorization. She's been widely described as a fairy godmother for big ideas, a strategic advisor who brings actual magic and sometimes sequence to corporate transformation. As the founder of the Amplify Lab, she's developed revolutionary frameworks for helping people articulate their potential and creating momentum for their ideas and futures.
01:20
In our conversation, Joanna takes us on a journey from her transformative experience moving from England to Texas at age 15, or, how she puts it, going from Hogwarts without the boys and magic to Friday night lights, through her early days in emerging technology, her current work helping everyone from high school students to billionaires, unlock their potential. Everyone from high school students to billionaires unlock their potential. We dive deep into several really juicy concepts. Expect to enjoy a whole host of explanations around a quantum pen. Also, Joanna explains that humans are essentially emerging technology themselves and explores why every decision about you is made in a room that you're not in. Also, to my great delight, discover why Cinderella was actually a strategic marketing genius who understood the power of leaving the right impression.
02:20
Joanna also shares practical tools, like her three-word exercise. She tells me about the unique challenges women face in professional settings and explains why we should all be playing positive sum games, aka making more pie rather than fighting over slices. This conversation is funny, profound and, you'll see, surprisingly moving. Joanna's warmth, wisdom and wonderful sense of humor shine through as she shares her vision for bringing more magic literal and metaphorical into how we think about human potential. A quick note this episode contains some adult language and you'll also hear a special guest appearance from my dog, nandi, who decided to share his thoughts right in the middle of our discussion about Joanna's wonderful book Tales of Potential. So without further ado, I give you my long-ranging conversation with the exceptional Joanna Bloor. Enjoy, Joanna. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Out of the Clouds.
03:28
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very excited to talk to you.
03:33
Wonderful. So, as you may already know, I love to start the podcast by asking my guest how they became the person they are today. To give me the romantic, slow, windy fairy tale story Uh-huh, yes exactly.
03:54
Well, I'm just going to throw a wrench in your question, just to begin with a little bit because, as you know, I call myself a potentialist and as a potentialist I am always looking forwards more than looking back, and very much like my entire story is anchored, am just as interested in who Joanna will be I don't know 10, 20, fingers crossed 30 years from now. How did I get here? Lots of very happy accidents that didn't feel like happy accidents at the time. Often the first one is and I always get this one out of the way because people often go she sounds weird. Where is she from?
04:48
Probably the most dramatic thing that happened in my life was I moved from England to Texas at the age of 15 with my mom and my new stepfather and my younger sister and just to paint a picture for people, I mean, anybody who goes England to Texas probably goes. Oh my gosh, that must've been really weird. You have no idea, because I went to one of those very posh girl schools in England and when I moved to Texas I went to like imagine the most American high school based on the movies that you can imagine, and it was totally like that with like football and cheerleaders and the whole thing, and I joke that I basically went from Hogwarts without boys or magic to like Americana and obviously the cultural shift and all of those things. But the lesson it taught me was incredibly painful at the time but also really like oh, hang on. A second Was and again I don't think I could have articulated at the time was this idea of future, you, that future, you is actually who people want to get to know and that there's this whole path in front of you. Because I came from a place where I'd been going to school with some of the girls in England since I was four to a place where people were like I don't know, you know other than you sound funny because I had a very strong British accent.
06:12
At the time. People had no story about me and I was like wow, this is kind of terrifying but also super liberating and it made me just much less scared of being thrown into really weird situations Like the lesson of the future is actually not that scary at 15, is such a lesson to get as a 15 year old. So there was that kind of kicked me in the pants at 15, which then in my twenties I was running a very high end fancy bathing suit store professionally which is a weird thing to now remember and I was backstage at a fashion show talking to one of my swimsuit models and she turned to me and she said hey, Joanna, you're a bit of a nerd because I was always into technology and while you're really good at selling, there's this internet thing happening that are looking for salespeople. Do you want to talk to them? And I think I was what 25 at the time. This was when nobody was talking about the internet, because it's quite a long time ago. I'm fairly old and I thought why not? I liked what I was doing, but I was a bit of a nerd.
07:24
I was in very early tech and, long story short, I ended up getting a job at a dot-com company in 1995. And I'll tell you, when we were running around in 1995, even in the city I was in, with as technologically forward as it was, if you said the word internet website, anything like that at the time people looked at you like you were nuts because there was no language. It was a bit like AI is right now, where it was a bit wild Westie right and there was some people doing really weird things and that moment I absolutely loved it. I was like this is the most fun, because I realized again very quickly is nobody had a rule book. Nobody had a rule book and we were basically making shit up as we go along. The joke about the colleagues I had at the time is that the executive team, if you threw an idea at them or a problem at them, their standard response was why don't you take a stab at that? Because they had no idea. Nobody was an expert in anything. We were all making it up and when somebody says why don't you take a stab at that? I'm all like yes, please. Thank you very much.
08:41
And so my technology self got quite the boost in my early twenties and it opened so many doors for me. So many doors for me because by this point I was like future, you is where it is all is at. I had a fairly strong sales background. I was all like very a tech optimist even the nineties, and being somebody who could sell things people didn't understand in the nineties and then even further into my career just meant people were like hang on a second, I need you on my team. I got invited to all sorts of interesting opportunities at an age where, like I was a punk, I was like I now look back at 20 years old myself and I'm like how, how did I get invited into those rooms? And I now laugh because I'm like I knew nothing. And then again that ran. I had a 25-year stint in emerging technology. So did Web 1.0, web 2.0, when that all happened, and was always dancing on the emerging edges of technology.
09:46
Until gosh, what? About? 10 years ago I had been working at a media company in the US who had done incredibly well, and my adventure with them came to an end as they do. And because of 100 hundred thousand different ingredients, I was like, oh, hang on a second. I have the time, I have the headspace, I have all of the ingredients where I should take a beat and actually think about what I want to do next.
10:20
Plus, I had a I'm not even going to call him a mentor. I had a potentialist in my orbit, the former CEO of the company I had been working for, who looked at me and he goes. You just need to play tennis for a year. And I was like I don't play tennis. And he was like that is not the point, he goes, you need to not jump from one. This is the moment where you can actually take time to figure out what you want to do next. And I was absolutely like I'm like the energizer bunny. There is no slowing down. I'm at a hundred miles an hour all the time. People get a little bit exhausted around me and I was like I can't do that. I can't do that.
11:01
Plus my own story about I'm supposed to have a job and I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to. And he was like no, you don't, and so no, I didn't learn how to play tennis. But I did take a year off just to experiment with ideas and say, well, actually, maybe I don't want to jump into the next frying pan. And because I'm super energy girl, I just started experimenting with stuff. And experimenting led to where I am today. And it's that future focus, play with weird things that other people aren't willing to play with, experimental thing that I now, like you can with any story I now look back at and I'm like, oh my God, it's been that all the time and it's been that all the time. It still is. This is what I do now.
11:48
I'm so glad I did ask you the question because I now have a follow-up. I'd love to hear from you what made you, if there was an inciting incident in the story of Joanna tech positive in that way.
12:06
Oh I don't know if your listeners are going to understand the expression how the sausage is made.
12:15
Yes, I think so.
12:17
Okay good, like I love to understand how things work, because when you understand how things work, love to understand how things work, because when you understand how things work, you can figure out how to use them in ways that other people haven't seen. Like, the potentialist is a made up word. Potentialist is a made up word that I made up for myself because I'm like this is very me, everything, everything I think I have done, from when you wanted to know who little Joanna was, little Joanna was a potentialist because I would always be like, oh well, we have this, what can we do with it? But you have to understand how something works before you can start playing with it. I actually studied chemistry for a long time and if you don't understand how chemistry works, fire can happen, which is not good, but you have to understand how the ingredients work. Plus, I will say I read a book when I was about 12, which also really taps into who I am and what I'm about and it's called Clever Lazy.
13:20
It's a book by this woman called Joan Bodger. It's a book by this woman called Joan Bodger and it is based in Ming Dynasty, china, about a little girl born on a farm who becomes an inventor and, you know, invents the vacuum cleaner, and little girls didn't do cool things. And it's about her life and her adventure. But the premise like if I was going to wrap the book up in one sentence is If you can think about an easier and more fun way of doing something, do that. And I was like, as a 12 year old girl, I was like hold on a second, like this whole break the rules thing very, very early. And I was like hold on a second. You don't actually have to do what everybody else tells you to do. Like if somebody says this is the way you're supposed to do it, you can go. Really, can't we invent a new way of doing it? And this whole idea of being clever lazy really appealed to me because I like having fun, I like doing stuff like that, and that really planted kind of an idea in my head and I say this I go back to the potentialist former CEO of the company.
14:34
When I interviewed for the job that they hired me for, I told him about the book. I told him about the book. I was like look, if you're going to hire me, I have what I call a clever, lazy framework to how do you optimize systems and processes so you can scale them. And it's not about just making them faster, better, cheaper. It's actually being like optimizing for how can you be a little bit lazier so that you have more time to do the fun stuff? And he was like oh, that's a really interesting idea and where we part of the initial bonding on how we have ultimately become friends, but there's like there's a new way of doing everything.
15:10
It's really core to who I am, but you have to know what the ingredients are and I love all the tech. Today. I'm very all over AI. I'm also trying to understand what quantum is, because nobody seems to really be able to explain it. It's very hard. Well, I have an answer for people on that. One Like here is my riff on technology with blockchain and robotics as secondary players is going to create the next evolution that everybody keeps talking about. Everybody's a bit obsessed with AI at the moment and it is very cool and does all sorts of things. But you start combining that then we're talking about lots of energy, lots of compute, lots of, lots of, lots of. Then you start to be able to imagine kind of a Star Trek sort of thing. So, yeah, that's the tech things there. You know I read sci-fi books when I was a kid too. Like I love, like I love sci-fi books now. Sci-fi fantasy and time travel all day. Yeah, with a bit of magic on the side.
16:25
With a bit of magic on the side and some Cinderella.
16:29
Yes, absolutely. Well, that's the comedian part of me coming out, but yeah, sure.
16:34
I'm glad I asked you the question because I knew we were meant to talk again, because I am clever, lazy too, hooray I am so good at doing a lot of work and I can focus and produce and do wonderful things, but really I try to do it intensely so I can just go away and do more of the fun stuff. Yeah, I think that's an important and or, let's say, an essential part of my life to either do fun stuff or do nothing. So, thank you, I feel like you're a sister do nothing.
17:04
So thank you, I feel like you're a sister, if fun stuff for you is taking a nap, hooray.
17:09
Mostly there's a book involved, but you know or meditation, whatever fun stuff is for you.
17:13
I think it's great and like how do we, how?
17:18
do we optimize for that? Yeah, but also I was going to say what feels very fundamental to my story, which somehow echoes yours, is that I'm a tech enthusiast. I've been like that since as long as I can remember. I mean, I remember the early days of when Nokia added audio to their phone and you can listen to the radio. I was like I want that phone. Be pleased. I mean, I had it. I just negotiated with the family, that was my Christmas present. But it's interesting because, you know, I have two half nieces and a younger brother and they all read the same books and watch the same sci-fi movies, because my half brother just loves sci-fi and stuff like that and he was very tech inclined and none of them seemed to care at all. I'm the one who just drank the Kool-Aid, and so it's interesting to see how I can touch one and not so much the others.
18:13
Well, but that's the beauty of human beings, right? Of course, that is the beauty of human beings. We all have different things that we like to tap into. I think the fear of the future thing is very real for people, and this is also why I talk about potentialism. Part of why I'm obsessed with that potential is and often people assume when I'm talking about potential and I am talking about human potential, but just human potential. So who is that person on your team who is full of potential that isn't being realized, right? Sure, which is 100% one of the categories. But potential in itself is a thing in the future that hasn't become a thing. And so potential can be applied to ideas. Yeah, potential can be applied to emerging technology Relationships yeah, relationships Like.
19:04
I'll come back to quantum as an example. The thing with quantum is the commercial potential of quantum has not been framed yet. I have a friend who's a quantum mathematician and we talk about this a lot, because I'm like do I sound crazy or do I sound like I know what I'm talking about? This comes back to the. You have to understand the ingredients before you can use it. But I'm like quantum just feels like a thing, that it's untapped potential. There are ideas, but there isn't a commercial, understandable use case yet.
19:40
There are some very, very clever people and the equivalent I will give you is pre-World War II penicillin as a product. Lots of scientists thought penicillin was very cool and could do all sorts of things, like the invention and the story of seeing penicillin kill the mold in the what wasn't a petri dish but kind of. Back then people understood that it could do things, but they don't really get the commercial application. It wasn't until the war that the commercial application. They went, oh, holy cow, this can save a bunch of lives, which is, ultimately, it did Right and it's. That's the shift and everything ideas, technology, people, relationships have this future state where it hasn't codified into something, where we go, oh, like for those of you listening, I'm holding up a pen on the screen right like, like, this is a pen. You understand the potential of this pen. It's got a black top to it, ergo, you know it probably has black ink and you can write with it or you could draw with it and in a pinch it could be a coffee stirrer or in a pinch it could be a back scratcher, or like those stories of potential you can create very easily from a pen. But if I said to you, oh very sorry, Anne, this isn't your regular shmegular pen, this is, dare I say it, very sorry, Anne, this isn't your regular shmegular pen, this is, dare I say it, a quantum pen, you'd be like do you know what a quantum pen does? Right, she's shaking her head.
21:12
For those of you who can't see, like you don't know and this is where it gets really interesting is your understanding of quantum. Your lack of fear about quantum absolutely determines how you are going to react to me talking about a quantum pen. And it might be like your siblings who are like, not very tech forward. They might go. You know, here's Anne, Joanna, whoever talking about some tech nonsense whatever, and they're going to ignore us. No engagement. Or they're going to be like oh, I've heard about this quantum thing, I don't get it and I might look stupid if I talk about it, so I'm not going to engage with him. Or they might go. What do you mean by quantum? And like that, like when you come back to the power of potential. Two of those paths did not create momentum. One of them did, and I'm always living in the third one, which is a little annoying for people.
22:09
Now I'd love for you to come back to the term the potentialist. Would you kindly explain to me and our wonderful listeners how did you come to coin it and what does it mean in terms of the work that you do today?
22:27
How did I come to coin it? I said the word far too often in public. Oh, all right, far too often. Like people were like good God. You say the word potential all the time and I was like great, clear indicator.
22:40
I'm just going to like I'm going to take it, I'm taking the word and I'm running with it. It does kind of capture a bit of the magic and the future-ness of how I speak. So, yeah, I said it so often that people started saying it back to me. Plus, it absolutely captures what I do, because while we've talked so far about I like to play in the future. I do like to play in the future, but what I know I'm really good at doing is taking that fear dial that everybody has about the future and just going and turning it down, because what I like to do more than anything in the world is actually create momentum around potential. So momentum around things people don't understand themselves being one of my favorites Momentum around ideas or products that people don't understand. I do this thing called potential pathing, where I'm like I'll come back to my pen. Example I went from this can write and draw to it can be a batch scratcher, which I appreciate very much, I do this all day.
23:46
right, I will do this all day with stuff that people like, ideas and stuff that people have, because the hard part of potential is one you can't see what you can't see On the human side. It's something very practical for your folks Like I sit here and I go look. Potential is infinitely easier to recognize when it looks and sounds like you, which is why, if you do not look and sound like the person who is, in essence, buying your future in the hiring process, you actually have to bridge that gap for them, otherwise they will apply what they think potential is. You know, the really simple equivalent of that is I sit here and I go like how could you explain the potential of the color red to somebody who is colorblind? You can't, you can't.
24:40
It's very hard. Yeah, I mean, it's like your head's kind of going. How do I do that?
24:46
Right, right. One of my favorite examples of this was an astrophysicist talking about the concept of four dimensions and how we can see two and three dimensions really easily in our heads. Our imaginations will let us do that, but when we start applying four dimensions, like our brain explodes. So the example I will give people is like if you took two circles, one inside the other, like you're drawing a donut if it was in two dimensions and you tried to take the inner circle out of the outer circle, you couldn't do that without breaking the outer circle, because you're in two dimensions. If it was two two circles in a three-dimensional state, you could just lift out the inner circle, easy peasy. Now you shift from three to four dimensions and for those of you listening, I'm to describe what I'm doing.
25:38
So I am connecting my fingers like a chain. Right, these are two interconnected circles like a chain. Now pretend for a are two interconnected circles like a chain? Now pretend for a second. This chain is not my fingers, but it's actually like the most tough steel ever In three dimensions. You can't pull this chain apart without breaking the chain. Right. In four dimensions it's as simple as lifting the inner circle out of the outer circle, you literally just lift it out. And I have told, retold from my astrophysicist person, that story so many times and it doesn't matter how hard I try to imagine, I cannot see four dimensions.
26:19
I cannot see four dimensions, Because I read this example in the book and I was like what is?
26:24
this crazy stuff. Like my head hurts thinking about it and I come back to the tech enthusiast me like we are Politically. It's a complete crazy place out there right now. It is absolutely a crazy place out there which is super normal, like when things are evolving, the crazy gets. And it is extra normal because when people get scared, they try to control, and this is. There's a lot of fear happening. There's a guy named Angus Hervey who put this so beautifully the other day. He said the old world is dying and while the new world struggles to be born, now is the time of monsters, because we are unable to distinguish between what feels good and what is true, and so we slide almost without notice back into superstition and darkness. Oh, gives me goosebumps thinking about it. Oh, my God, like brilliant right. Who is this brilliant man?
27:27
Angus.
27:27
Hervey, I will send you the stuff so you can put it in the show notes. So good, right. And we're in that. We're in that phase right now. And so I turn around and say, like where is all of the opportunity? Where can we go? Like, how do we future path on a broader sense? And I sit here and I say, look, we have to be able to unpack and explore the potential and things we don't understand yet and play with them so that we can find the potential.
27:58
And when we're in it, like if you're the astrophysicist who understands four dimensions, it's super hard to explain to somebody who doesn't. And that's the place I live in. I live in the place of how do you shift somebody from I don't get it to what? What? Hang on, that's super cool. Um, and how do you start creating momentum there? And it becomes this co-creative future, because I say this at life, creative future, because I say this out loud like we get the future in entertainment and we've.
28:30
It feels a little bit like we're on a mad maxian future path right now. Not a big fan of that, yeah. However, a fan of the star trekian future, like gene roddenberry was a genius in so many ways. I want the star trekking one and so, if I can wield my magic powers to help create Star Trekian futures for people where technology opens opportunity to all of the good stuff that exists in Star Trek, which included collaboration and exploration and experimentation, like all the good words, I'm like how do we do that?
29:06
And that's like a potentialist is there to make sure we're not hiding potential future paths that are possible, helping actually figure out like which one heads you towards the future you want Shockingly hard thing to do for many, because the fear thing is very real. Then how do you create momentum around it? And the key piece of momentum around potential is it's not what you say, it's what other people say about the idea in the room that you're not in and it's why, like you've probably now heard this, I'm like a Z-list celebrity around the statement. Every decision made about you and your opportunities is made in a room that you're not in.
29:52
Every time I hear it, it makes me feel like I've failed. You have not failed Because yes, because I feel like I really have not taught people about what to say about me in a room that I'm not in. Anyways, I want to hold on for a second on this. You've just explained in brilliant broad strokes some of the work you do around products and technology, but one of the things that you're very well known for and that you've just helped so many wonderful people at doing which is the first thing you talked about right Is how you help people talk about their own potential in a way that's going to be resonant for others, and you do introduction makeovers. I think we can call them. There's plenty examples on YouTube, which I'm very happy to link to in the show notes, because I've watched many of them. I'd love for you to tell me how did you start, when? How Magic Go on?
30:54
Well, so I'm going to back up a second, because people need to understand this a little bit. First of all, why people? Why people? Are you kidding me? Human potential, like we buy and sell our future time to each other? Right, that is the product as a human being that you put out into the world. And am I saying that every single time there is a transaction or a price with it? No, you're not paying me, I'm not paying you. There's no financial piece here. Often we forget that, but we're here because we both saw the potential and having a chat in the future.
31:29
Right.
31:29
This is why we are here, so I would argue that you've actually done a fine job teaching people about your potential. Otherwise, I wouldn't have shown up today.
31:37
Absolutely.
31:37
Right, but I sit here and I go, like that is the magic quantum, whatever you want to call it, like that is a piece of human beings that continues to just blow my mind and we buy and sell it. Oh my God, like it's a pencil, like we use word documents. Word documents and keywords are you can? It completely incenses me. I can go on a whole, like we could have a whole podcast about how we buy and sell the coolest, most upgradable, most groundbreaking product on the planet our human potential. Like it's a widget. So you've just all heard me rant about that. So with that frame I then turn around and say, well then, like fix that, fix that. How do we make human potential easier to buy? And it's really thinking about that whole thing. And it breaks my heart because so often I don't. Everybody I've met has a hard time talking about themselves because you're in the product far, far, far too much, and we've all been completely taught to talk about ourselves like we're a bunch of features and when you in essence sell potential, people or ideas like it's a future, you are missing the magic. So I set that as a framework because the magic thing again I come back to my quantum pen story. It's the quantum bit that people buy, not the pen bit, and for people it's the quantum is the magic piece. So how did I get here? A happy accident.
33:40
So that year I said that I took off to kind of experiment and do fun things. I at the time was super interested in 3D printing. I thought it was this really interesting technology. And I didn't get it and so I was like, well, how do I learn about 3D printing? I also was interested in the podcast technology. It was beginning to emerge, the podcast technology. It was beginning to emerge.
34:00
At the time this was 2015. And I struggle with my weight and I know that when I am public with my weight loss story I hold myself a little bit more accountable. So I was like, how can I do all three of those at the same time? And I started a experiment called 3D Lila. So 3D Lila stands for three-dimensional late-in-life athlete. I've always been a bit chubby and not very athletic and I was like, okay, so my problem is, I think the scale is this horrible thing and I tend to think I am taller and thinner than I really am, and so if I saw myself on a regular basis as I was going out like having dinner, deciding to have another margarita, whatever it is, if I saw myself, would I stop myself, like if I actually had a visual.
34:46
And so I found this company who would 3d print me, and so I literally walked around for a year with a 3d printed version of myself, which I kept reprinting almost every month as I shrank, because it was very effective. When you see actually how big your butt is and there's a plate of cookies, you make the right decision. It was fun and I interviewed a bunch of people about 3D printing and, through the magic of serendipity, the TED organization found out about my project and they called me up and they said you're funny, you've got an interesting idea, would you like to come speak at TED? And I was like, say less? And that got me to TED and I talked about my 3D printing experience and I was there to be a comedy act, literally.
35:30
They were very clear. But it was there that I met like the magic of going to TED is actually the people you meet standing in line. And I met a very fancy Microsoft executive who was there launching the HoloLens product at the time and she and I hit it off. This was before I started anything. I was curious about why my awesome lady friends were not making it into the rooms where the decisions were being made about the future, and why was it I did? Why was I getting invited and they were not? And it was. This was pre-Me Too. It was annoying me and I had this idea that I didn't have the sentence. Every decision made about you and your opportunities is made in a room that you're not in. But I had a hunch and I said to her if I was going to go ask people who know you, what are you known for, what would they say? And she looked at me and I'll never forget it. She said I think they'd call me Microsoft girl and I was like, well, that's super boring and you should do something about that, because you know everybody gets hired because you call somebody boring. And fortunately for me, she laughed. But what happened next is where the magic piece happened because she reached out to me about six weeks later and said you know, ted, amazing, met all sorts of interesting people, but our conversation is the one that really stuck with me. Would you come up to Redmond and talk to my team about this idea? And I had nothing at the time and I thought, oh, new friend asking me to do a favor, absolutely, I will do that. And then she goes do you have a program? And I was like, yes, I do. I had nothing. And she goes can you send me a proposal? And I was like, yes, absolutely I can. I had nothing. I had nothing. She knows this now, when we laugh about it a lot, we're still friends. And so I was like, okay, well, if I'm going to talk about this, like what can it be? And, by the way, this one was going to pay me amazing.
37:19
And so I went up to Redmond and the most amazing thing happened. I didn't actually have the word potential yet, but we were talking about how do you talk about the future? You and I said to the room, there was like 60 people in there. I was like, how do you want people to describe the future? You? And there was a woman up front who, if you've run a workshop, you know what I'm talking about. You see people who are struggling and she was clearly struggling and she had written nothing on her page and so you know they were all working on this stuff.
37:47
I saddled up and I'm like you look like you're struggling, what's going on? And she looked at me oh, it's going to break my heart. And she goes I don't know how I magic, I don't, I don't know how I'm magic, I don't, I don't know like other than doing what I'm told to do. I don't know. And I was like what absolute nonsense. And I said tell me who you are. And I said do you mind if I interview for a second? And we start doing this back and forth. Where I just started asking her questions and it was literally like one of those word bubbles popped over her head.
38:17
I put myself in the buyer's shoes and as I listened to her answers, I went why would I buy her? Why would I buy her? And because I've had decades of sales experience of specifically selling things people did not get and understand emerging technology, like. I just applied that same approach to her and I was like well, this is why you are awesome. She burst into tears and I'm like, oh my God, so sorry. And she was like, no, no, you've just described me in a way that no one has ever described me before. Thank you, I now understand why I matter. And I was like, whoa, amazing, right, I was like no-transcript and just realized that the muscle that I had been working for decades explaining why you should buy 4D, unlinking chains, why you should buy quantum, like whatever the thing, was actually applied really, really well for human potential, and a lot of people like, oh well, you created a pitch for them. No, I created an essence, an invitation into their future, which is why it works. You can't actually pitch potential because it's too boxing, but I created these invitations to the future and if you look at the ones like you've seen several of them they're all just invitations, like this is how you invite somebody into your future and once you create that, they know how to invite you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, other than the overly confident excuse the expression, my shit don't stink kind of people who have a whole different issue. I can do it to anybody.
40:25
I once did a conference where I have this whole opening act thing. I do at conferences, because meeting people is the whole point of the conference. But the event coordinators were like, would you stand in the sponsor's booth for the rest of the event and do makeovers? And I was like, yeah, totally, that would be fun. I was there for six hours doing back-to-back makeovers and it was literally one of my favorite days. I was exhausted at the end and the sponsor was like, how are you still standing? And I was like I'm not. We ended up having to get like a box of cleaners because lots of people cried which?
40:56
I'm like are you kidding me? You know, my, my team often say did you make somebody cry today? And not because I make them sad, it's because I make them feel seen, which is like what an amazing job, what an amazing job to get paid, to make people feel like they matter, best thing in the world. But I also like to do it like ideas. Also, like ideas is where the magic happens. But I do wish we bought and sold human potential in a better way. Resumes, job descriptions no, thank you, yeah.
41:26
You know what I'm taking away from this is. I had to write it down so I wouldn't forget that people are essentially emerging technology. Yeah, I am fascinated to hear you express it like this, because suddenly you're right. It makes so much sense. You spent years trying to sell something most people did not understand. Yeah, and yes, of course. So for our audience who know me as a podcast host, I am a coach and a facilitator and a consultant, but in my previous life, I was global head of communications and communicating expensive, red-soled women's shoes. So let me tell you I am expert at selling potential. Tell me the potential that a pair of shoes is going to give you.
42:36
But, that said, I wanted to wrap this and bring it to the fact that talking about myself is one of the things that has been one of the biggest hurdles that I've ever encountered after I left the company that became famous. While I was there At the beginning, I had to sell the potential of an unknown shoe designer with red soles and a Swiss girl with a very complicated last name. So I had to sell these two complicated identities. That just made no sense for most people, but once one of them becomes so tangibly reliable and recognizable. I coasted on only attaching myself and my personality to the name. Like your friend Microsoft Girl, I was Anne from Louboutin. I didn't have a last name for many years and, within Louboutin, I was Anne from London for a long time.
43:26
Yep, and it's fascinating that this brought us together and this idea of working on storytelling and how to tell the story of ourselves, because I've been writing about this and talking about it in public and I lead workshops and bring other people doing it. Differently than you, though, I'm learning so much from you because I recognize how bad I was at doing this Genuinely catastrophic. I know that when people ask what I was doing a few years ago, I said I'm a consultant, but this is what people have been taught to do. I know, but I even come from like the McKinsey world, like it meant nothing outside of fashion. It was. It was almost as if you know if, if this was a handshake, this was me, just like flopping my hand in terms of energy, what a great visual.
44:15
I know it was almost like a refusal to engage. I don't know if it was just me thinking it was mysterious, or ashamed, or confused, or refusing to do the work right, because there is work that needs to be done because it's so hard to do it. Well, me being the product.
44:33
I'm going to poke the bear. Sure, there is a different rule set for men than there are for women.
44:39
Oh, thank you for bringing it.
44:41
Okay. However, before we go back to poking the bear, which we will in just a second, because this is important for the human beings listening to this I want to edit your frame around communicating the story thing, and this is the other big lesson, and I'm going to use Louboutin as an example. Yes, please.
45:00
The big lesson we've all been told is to make yourself. It's about what you say that is important and it is not. It's actually the third audience that is important. Yes, and I'm going to use Louboutin and tell me, if I'm not wrong about this, like I own a pair of Louboutin. And tell me if I'm not wrong about this, like I own a pair of Louboutin shoes. Yes, they are not very comfortable Just going to say that out loud but I do love them and I keep them in little baggies and pristine condition because when I the very few times that I do wear them, yes, is there a little bit of a story in my head about, oh, I'm wearing my fancy Louboutin shoes, but it's actually the story they tell other people who see that I'm wearing the Red Soul shoes. That is the third audience and this is so important for the human to human.
45:49
And coming back to the, every decision made about you is made in a room that you're not in. People buy the story somebody else creates about you. It's the same reason I was like, wow, everybody's saying the word potential around me. I should just make it easy for them and call myself a potentialist, because now, people in a room. I'm not in just say, oh Joanna, she's the potentialist. And it's actually the story the third person creates in their head about what does the word potentialist mean? That is the thing that they buy, and so, unlike selling things like pens or I'm looking at my desk a pair of scissors or what have you, there's only like there's the initial audience with potential and human beings, it's the secondary, but it's the third conversation that they actually end up buying, which is this is where my work gets really more complicated. But I want to make sure people understand that this is not about positioning yourself better.
46:47
It's about potentialing yourself better and it is a very important nuance, putting words out in the world that people are going to be able to use other people can tell the story, tale of potential about you, about you Absolutely, which is where all the magic happens, and whether that sentence is out loud or in their head.
47:07
Sure yeah, Whether it's implicit, something that they well, they need to be able to express it somehow. But so hold on, Come back to poking the bear.
47:15
I want to poke the bear. Should we go back to the bear? Yes, please.
47:17
Okay, come back to poking the bear. I want to poke the bear. Should we go back to the bear? Yes, please, okay, so what do you mean? It's different for men and women.
47:23
Because? Well? So, first of all, let's talk about the buyers. Like it or not, most buyers are men, and I come back to the statement I made earlier, which is potential is infinitely easy to recognize when it looks and sounds like you.
47:42
Oh, that just landed.
47:43
Right, and you can be mad about that, or you can do something about that. Somebody else called me once an agentic optimist and I was like, oh, I like that. I am so about just going. Well, like this is the, these are the cards I've been dealt and what can I do about this? I was absolutely the girl in college when people started throwing up that I'd be like, oh, okay, this is not good anymore. How do we sort this out? Right, I'm all like how do we make the best of a bad situation, Whatever it is? Because being mad about stuff, I don't, everybody's story is different and so I will couch that. But I tend to be like, okay, well, that sucked, Let me put it behind me and do see what I can do. So there's the potential thing, and so in the do something about it is like I'll do a very simple example. Like Objection Handling 101, in the process of selling a thing, says if there is an obvious objection, if you own it and say it first, then they will let go of it.
48:51
Good point.
48:52
Right. So objection for a pair of Louboutin shoes, incredibly expensive shoes. I'm sorry, but Louboutin does a really good job of owning the fact that they're like. We're kind of unapologetic about it, Like Hermes does the same thing, right, and so you don't walk around and go, oh my God, these shoes are so expensive because you already know.
49:09
Yeah.
49:10
Right, and I'll use this as a thing I've absolutely been known to say. When I'm, when somebody is at the point where they're like, how do I hire you, I go. I'm just going to warn you, right now I'm kind of expensive, and I just say it out loud, right, which means that when I come back and say it's this much money, they're not expecting it to be $5. Sure, right, so that's kind of sales 101. So you own the objection. And so I will say, with the human wing is, you might think I'm going to give you a real example, and this is a really dramatic example, but it works. When I was interviewing for a job, once the job description on the table that the CEO had in front of them I was not even closely qualified for I was still getting interviewed because I was brilliant. Plus, I knew that the job description that they thought they needed was wrong, was absolutely wrong. They thought they needed one kind of person. I knew they needed something totally different and I knew in the first five minutes of the conversation with the CEO that if I didn't get him to tear up the job description, the whole conversation was over. Sure, and so when he this is going to sound a bit technical and weird, but it made sense at the time. His opening question to me was Joanna, do you think we should replace DoubleClick as the ad serving system? Which, for the job on the piece of the paper, was the right kind of question to ask. And I looked at him and I said I'm really sorry, mr Kennedy, but I think you're asking the wrong question. And he looked at me and literally his face was like who the hell do you think you are? And I smiled and I said would you like to me to explain to you what I think is the right question and why? And he was like tell me more. And then I basically talked to him about what he was trying to solve at this point in time for the company and why they had thought this particular role was important, but actually what he really needed, and it took.
51:01
I drew some stuff on wall because I like to do visuals, and after about five minutes he was like oh, oh. And I said okay, now you have a choice. I said if you still want to hire the person that's on that piece of paper, let me just tell you right now I'm not that person on the piece of paper. I said could I fudge it? Sure, and I said but I know lots of people who are far more qualified for that job, who would be equally as lovely and brilliant. And I said so, if you want that person, then let's save some time and I will introduce you to some people in my network because they would be amazing. I said or you could tear that resume up and hire the person that I just drew on the whiteboard which one do you want? And he looked at the whiteboard and he goes I want the person on the whiteboard. I was like great, let's talk about her because that's me. And he tore the job description up and you know.
51:46
The rest, as they say, is history. I went in there knowing that they had a job description that didn't fit who I was, but I knew what they needed. It's reframing that. Now I realize that wasn't a male to female version, but it's the same concept. Sure Of like, if you know that you are going to go in and they have a story about who you are as a woman and we'll pull my. One of my favorites is and I say favorites with air quotes I'm known for also saying get shit done.
52:20
Girls get given shit to do which boy you want to talk about making women mad. They get very angry with my say that because they're like what are you talking about? I'm supposed to get shit done. I'm like, yeah, guess what happens if you don't get your shit done, you get fired. Getting your shit done is table stakes. It's the basics of your job.
52:39
And let's now talk about the rooms that you're not in. If you're only known for being the person who executes against somebody else's idea, then that's the only thing they will hire you for. I was talking with one of my favorite humans, who also is a woman, yesterday, who was having a very bad day and she's a consultant and her boss was taking advantage of her time. And I said to her I said you know what I'm going to say to you and she goes. And I said you teach people how to buy you and how to choose your time and I said you need to reset. Her boss was another woman. I said she's buying more because you're offering more and I said put some guardrails up, don't offer as much. Remind her what she's actually allowed to buy, not what she can buy.
53:33
And for women we are so indoctrinated into make yourself choosable offer. And I I don't know if this happens in Europe, it certainly does in the United States. Like you go to a boy girl dance when you're like I don't know, seven, eight, nine, before puberty and even then, actually before puberty, the girls are kind of fierce and ferocious and I'm not as worried. But like when puberty hits, the power dynamic of who does. The choosing shifts dramatically, and this is in. Yes, you know, I think we've got more variety in how dating works and who you are, but there's usually a chooser and a chosen.
54:16
Sure.
54:16
And often women are indoctrinated into the chosen bucket and the example I guess, if you just look at dating between straight people as an example, by the time your average guy is 30, he has 500% more experience asking for what he wants Like I'm a lot, I'm a lot. My husband asked me to marry him, not the other way around. It is a cultural phenomenon and why we think that doesn't apply in the workplace is beyond me. Because it is. Do I think it's going through a bit of a shakeup? Do I think some of the backlash that is happening around the DEI stuff now is a reaction to the power dynamic shifting Sure, 100%, 100%.
54:59
Yeah.
54:59
And this is really tricky space for men and women. But I come back to don't be mad about it, make yourself easy to buy, think about the power dynamic and it is a power dynamic that you are offering your potential and remember, as a woman, coming back to the tale of potential we create about people we don't know the story of women predominantly is I get to choose you, you don't get to choose me. The momentum is started by my choice and it's a bit ubiquitous all over the place and I sit here and I go. It's time to shift that a tiny bit.
55:44
I'm delighted to share that. So my cat just decided to jump on the keyboard.
55:49
Is it a boy cat or a girl cat?
55:51
Girl cat.
55:52
Excellent.
55:53
Yeah.
55:53
She was like I am in on this conversation.
55:55
She's like I am in and right now, please give me some cuddles.
55:59
Yes, yeah, less controversial frame on this that I talk about with people is if you think about the difference between like you hear, in business, people talk about zero sum games and non-zero sum games. Zero sum games is I win, you lose. Non-zero-sum games is we share. So zero-sum game I get the pie, you don't. Non-zero-sum game is let's share the pie, maybe not equitably, but let's share so that we all feel good about it.
56:33
My patterns have noticed that men are allowed and expected to play a zero-sum game until they have enough power, and women are expected to play a non-zero-sum game but can only get power if they play a zero-sum game. And it's when women play a zero-sum game that we get. Well, she's being a bit pushy. That's not very nice. Sure, we go. Don't get me started on how women to women can get crazy about that too. Yeah, because we're talking about pie, which is why I then turn around and go nonsense to both those options. Play a positive sum game and for those of you who don't know what that is, that's make more pie. If you play a positive sum game as a woman, you actually get all the things and more, because everybody wins.
57:25
Because everybody wins. I think it's continuously reminding ourselves that we're not playing against each other, but fostering collaboration, creating further growth together not against each other, right, yeah, but it's not.
57:40
It's not giving up so that there's a share. It's actually creating more creating more creating more and more doesn't need necessarily again mean more money or more. It's like whatever your more is yeah, or, in our case, more fun yeah, for sure, for sure.
57:58
Now, talking about fun, one of the ways that you explain, let's say, go in details about reframing a tale of potential, is the story that you decided to write about in your book Tales of Potential, where you deconstruct and reconstruct beautifully the Cinderella story. Do you want to tell me first how and when did this first come up for you?
58:27
It started. You're going to see a pattern with me. It started because I used to use the glass slipper and my perspective about the glass slipper as a tool to help people understand the importance of the human leaf behind for lack of a better term and how quickly we forget and what little you can do to actually influence. Do you want me to tell the story of the glass slipper?
58:53
Yes, please Well, we've just talked about Louis Vuittons as well, so yes, I know Our mutual love of shoes.
58:59
I do love shoes. So here's the deal. I love Cinderella, by the way. Folks Just roll with me on this one. So let's talk about the glass of the moment. And the glass of the moment is the bell is bonging midnight. Cinderella's like oh, I've got to get out of here. The only rule the fairy godmother gave her was like get out of there before midnight, last stroke of midnight, or bad things will happen. She was like, yes, ma'am, she was being a get shit done girl at that moment, but she's all like running out of the palace with the prince behind her chasing her. She'd had a great time and all of these things. And as she comes careening down the stairs, her shoe comes off.
59:41
Well, so first of all, I want you to think about this for a second. We are not talking about like a flip-flop from your corner store. We are talking about the Louboutin of Louboutin. Shoes Like this is the best shoe she's ever had in her entire life, and I don't know any woman on the planet who wouldn't do some ninja backbend move to grab that thing. She didn't know she was going to lose everything. I would have absolutely done some like I would have hurt myself because I've been like I'm keeping the shoe Because, are you kidding I would have hurt. Even if it had just been a Louboutin, I would have done the same thing Because are you kidding me? She'd been in rags earlier that day. She would absolutely practically cartwheel down the stairs just to keep the shoe. Anybody listening? Who's that would? I would have left the shoe Nonsense. This is the difference between men. Maybe, who knows, like if it had been like a Ferrari, they wouldn't have left it. We all have our thing. Maybe you make a watch or something.
01:00:35
Anyway so she left the shoe which just made me sit here and go. Well, why?
01:00:39
Because if she left the shoe. She must have done it on purpose. And if you unpack that, you realize how brilliant and a strategic thinker Cinderella was, because she did this in milliseconds. She was all like, hang on a second. Here I am, I'm leaving the party early and, yes, the stepsisters are still in the ballroom and could be trouble, but there's also a couple of other thousand amazing women who might capture the prince's eye because we didn't know he was 100% in at that point. And so how do I make sure that the prince still goes? Ooh, cinderella, ba-bomb, because we don't know that Cinderella actually didn't believe in love at first sight at the time, apparently the prince did, so she was like how do I give him something to remind him of this magical moment we just had? So she left the shoe for him. Unpack it a little bit further.
01:01:28
She also realized that, talking about the third audience, when the prince got up the next morning after the party, he would have to go to his and I say air quote decision makers, aka the king of queen of fairytale land, and be like mom, dad, I found the one, and apparently in fairytale land teeny tiny feet are a thing, and so he was able to show them the glass set and say, like the girl who is wearing this shoe is the one I want and, by the way, I need all of the people to help me find her.
01:01:58
So apply this to, like, the corporate world. It's like he got resources, he got money, he got time. He got like, cause the night before, the king and queen were like you need to marry somebody, like yesterday. Um, and he's like I need all of these resources to activate against this project. He basically pitched a whole thing using the shoe and then he literally used the shoe to find her. At the end of the day which basically means Cinderella on the stairs as she was booking it out of the building, realized that she needed to leave marketing materials for the prints and future buyers to make herself easy to buy, which is why Cinderella is a genius and not some sad sap who needs rescuing by a prince.
01:02:39
Thank you so much. I love this so much. I also love the fact that, knowing women as I do yeah, uh-huh, we would never leave that glass slipper behind. And I actually was sick during the holidays and I've watched the live action Disney Cinderella, which was wonderful, so beautiful.
01:03:00
So beautiful. So as I was reading the book, I had all of these images wafting through me and just helping me just truly reframe, and I love how you just bring this then, as would you hire Cinderella If we re-narrate her story from the angle of brilliant marketing genius? Oh my God. So you were using this metaphor because shoes clearly speak to people and you're good at telling tales of potential. But at which moment did you think? Huh, let me turn this into a book.
01:03:34
Well. So lots of people would ask me more questions about Cinderella, because I use comedy a lot in my work to take the scary out of things and as I thought about Cinderella I was like where else is she doing? Cool, because I like the shoe story and I'm like my other favorite one FYI, I think this isn't in the book but I basically think the fairy godmother is the future human quantum computer. Like she understood the concept of superposition A pumpkin can be a coach and a pumpkin, basically quantum is magic. I could pull this thread all day. I love me a metaphor. I could pull this thread all day, but I sit here and I go like this is why, to anybody really who's like, oh, fear of the future thing. Part of what I love about Cinderella is you think about that moment when she's like had everything taken away, like the stepmother said I'm going to rip your dress up, you can't come to the party, you're going to stay home. She just wanted to go to the party and dance, like that was. She didn't. The whole prince thing was just the bonus, right? She just wanted to go out and have a good time and maybe wear a pretty dress and the stepmother had been like absolutely not shut that shit down. And she was crying. She was crying. And then this crazy person who, if you think about the story, looked like she had been drug through a hedge backwards, this crazy old lady who looked like something insane pops out of the bushes and is all like hi, who are you? And instead of being reasonably selfish which I'm sorry, I've absolutely been an asshole. In those moments when I've been knocked down, I have a hard time being generous to other people. She turns around and it's like oh, do you need a snack? How can I help you? And then when, like, the fairy godmother turns into this whole lot of I don't know about you, but I'd have been running at that like my, I have a pretty healthy excitement about the future, but if somebody then transformed into a fairy godmother was like I'm your fairy godmother, I can make wishes come true, I'd be like I need to see some more of this magic shit because I'm not sure I I'm not sure I totally believe it. Yet, like my pessimistic it does exist a tiny bit realistic self would have, would have had questions where cinderella was like have a snack, are you okay? Oh, look at this. Oh, and like, cinderella was a potentialist. In that moment she was like, oh, this woman could help me. Here are all the things to do, and not only that. Like so many of us like if somebody magically appeared in our lives and we're like, ta-da, I'm going to do all the things You'll remember.
01:06:13
In the story, cinderella has to remind the fairy godmother to fix her dress. Like how many of us would have been all like, look, you've just made all of this stuff for me, but I look like I've been drugged through a hedge backwards. Can we sort this out too? Like how many of us would have been like, oh, I need to go by the store and get a dress so that I can go in the car. Like we wouldn't have asked and she does still there too. And so, like I think about the courage and generosity and what dare I say it potentialist frame in her head that I just sit here and I go like, how amazing is she? Cause? Like, when I look at myself, I wobble all the time. I wobble all the time. Yeah, I wobble all the time and Cinderella never wobbled that amazing you want to say like authenticity right there.
01:07:03
What I really love as well, which you bring up in some other context and towards the end of the book, is really what she's all about is kindness, right, yeah, you talk about she wants to bring kindness to scale. Yeah, she wants to bring kindness to scale. Yeah, and it's true that I feel like in the retelling of the original story it's there, but we forget to make this such an essential part of what she stands for, and I really appreciated, beyond all the potentialist and the reframing, that this came through so strongly as a leading value. So she was doing all of these magical things and at the core of everything she was doing there was this great, big kindness.
01:07:50
How do you scale kindness, yeah, yeah, which like this you come back to and why I used.
01:07:59
You were asking about why I wrote the book. What I found in my work was every individual conversation I would have, people would have the aha moment around the potential for themselves, but if they heard it about somebody else, heard it about somebody else. You know, I talked to an investment banker one day and a guy who, real situation, who sells pipeline for an oil and gas company. I've had a big variety like they don't see how this could work for them and I was like, literally, how do I get the most misunderstood story? In my opinion, because the tale of potential, the story, the third person story. We talk about Cinderella and what we've all been taught is that Cinderella was a sad sap and needed rescuing by the prince, and I'm like nowhere, nowhere, I'd say if anything she rescued him was the other way around. And so I used the story as a mega analogy and so I found I had to probably cut 30% more stories out of the book because we were like, let's just not beat a dead horse here.
01:09:13
I had so many examples that just kept on coming up, kept on coming up, and then, quite honestly, with the work that I did, people were like, have you written a book? And I was like no, and because I'll come back to the beginning, I love to understand how a thing is made I was like you know what? This would be a fun project. Why don't I learn how to write a book using this as a framework? And it could be book one. And I went down. I had went down the publisher path, I went down the self-published, I went, I explored the entire process of how do you get something from your head onto paper so that somebody can then say, oh, this is your idea. And just the process of learning how to write a book was probably my favorite part of the experience.
01:09:57
I'm really grateful you say that, because I'm in the process of writing a book. It's really one of the hardest things I've ever done.
01:10:03
It's hard and, by the way, the moment that you're like, if I have to read one more word, if I have to do one more edit on this, I might stick a hot poker in my eyeball. Wait, you'll get there, yeah.
01:10:16
Oh, I mean I'm writing it, so it's already. It's painful, but in another way I'm just looking at the notes that I've made in the book. There's so many good things.
01:10:29
See the question while you're looking. Here's my question to your audience Is this fairy tale thing is super fun. Plus, professionally, I'm called the potentialist. Unprofessionally, lots of people call me the fair their fairy godmother.
01:10:46
That's the whole I'm at a crying thing. Oh yes, it's why I wear sequins a lot, and so I'm like this whole fairy tale thing is fun, and I'm starting to see the Goldilocks story popping up, because Goldilocks is a chooser. She does not play a positive sum game, so I do. Do I do that, or do I pull the thread on the potentialist thing and my I'm dancing on both. So for your listeners, message me Goldilocks story. Or do you want to know more about potentialism, cause you want to do that too? That's my ask.
01:11:21
That's wonderful. I can't wait to see what they choose. So one of the things that came up for me a lot when I was researching and looking at some of your interviews and reading the book is so, in reading, how you reframe how Cinderella works with her stepsisters and with the awful stepmother, and how she has the mice and the birds helping her, and all of that you reframe the story and put it in a rather stark, let's say, corporate concept. You bring the magic and you just root it into a corporate setting. You bring the magic and you just root it into a corporate setting.
01:12:04
Part of what came alive for me is how do you help me or my listeners become potentialists ourselves so we can bring the potential in those around us? Did I frame this properly? Yes, okay, because I remember times in my career where, let's say, there was one or two members of my team that were absolutely amazing, full of potential, and generally they were young women, they were good looking, they were very smart and they were also rather misunderstood by a lot of other people. And, like you, I saw the potential, I nurtured the potential and I supported them, but I at times was unable to help them shine their light or to help inform that third audience, and they did not make it into some of the rooms, particularly if I was not around. And as a manager and as someone who was helping them build their career, this has sat with me as something I wish I could have done better. So do you have any thoughts as to how can we help bring that potential?
01:13:16
To life, to life in others. Oh, this is why I've been doing this for 10 years. I would. There isn't a see a simple. Here are 10 steps to. There's a couple of questions I always, or just ideas that you can play with. So one I do think we tend to assume the potential person's problem and not the buying person's problem.
01:13:37
Yeah, good point.
01:13:38
Right, and so that's the first thing is, if potential is not being recognized, it's because the person with potential isn't making it easy to recognize. Note I did not say position. Sure, yeah, yeah yeah, and then the person who needs to buy their potential can't see it like the color red.
01:13:59
Sure or quantum right. And so I often start with the person who can't see it first, because if they can't see it, it doesn't matter how fabulous she is, he is, it doesn't matter. If they can't see it for themselves, nothing will happen. And again, we've been taught to advocate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I come back to how do you sell a product that people do not understand? Well, you cannot pitch it. Cannot pitch a product that people do not understand, because they will put it in the quantum pen bucket.
01:14:36
You actually have to invite them to ask questions. And it starts I'm going to say it again, it starts with the objection. And so one of my favorite questions to ask executives, when they're like oh, I think, we think they have potential. But I go, I start with them and I'm like how do you describe them in a room that they're not in? What do you think their potential is? What do you see? And they'll say all sorts of really boring and trite crap, like executive presence or strategic thinker, and I'm like well, define that for me. Like, what does that look like? What would it look like if it showed up? Can you show me examples where it is showing up? And so actually step into their brain and say what is their tailored potential mapping software? Look like they have an operating system of potential and often there are gaps in their potential, and so the first step is actually for them to go oh shit, I might be blind to something, which is really hard when you are not in the power position. But you have to have that conversation first.
01:15:39
Sure, it's fascinating because you're talking about, instead of telling people, asking them questions. Yeah, and when I think about it, you're absolutely right. I think they either did not want to see or did not see.
01:15:50
That's why they because they were smart people right, yeah, this is why I use red as an example, like, no one's going to beat you up if you're colorblind, they're just. They're just. They're just potential blind, which is like we all have it. We all have it and especially, I mean this is where culture and jet, like all of the things culture, age, gender, history what you want to find out is where they might have potential blindness, which is a forward foot conversation, and it is understanding their background and all of those sorts of things, which is why I often ask them where they have seen potential before, like, where are their pattern matches from before?
01:16:32
Yeah, and I would say one of the coaches that I study with. She says that the quality of your life can depend on the quality of your questions. Yeah, so there's a lot to be said to be thoughtful about open-ended, qualitative questions. Not why? Yeah, especially not why, because that's not for a back foot.
01:16:54
Yeah, now I'm not going to sit here and say that the buy side has the problem and say that the buy side has the problem. This is why, on the human potential thing, I am constantly fascinated by this work, because it is not even a bidirectional buying process. There's four different directions that are in play at any one time.
01:17:14
Because let's just pretend for a second. We've got two people One of them is the CEO of Muckety muck corp and one is a junior manager in muckety muck corp. And you're in the middle of this and you're trying to get the ceo muckety muck corp to see the junior manager's potential. Their tale of potential is based on four different elements, so the CEO's confidence and belief in themselves and their confidence and belief in the individual and the individual's confidence and belief in themselves and their confidence and belief in the CEO. And you apply that and now I'm really going to get a bit mad, which is why I'm like there is no 10-step thing. You apply that across the power dynamic of and this is the simple one are you optimizing for liked, wanted, invited or honored? And if any of those four things and the four what I call power definitions are wonky or out of alignment, then the whole thing falls apart.
01:18:27
A power dynamic between these two people. People get very uncomfortable about this because they're like it's not power. I'm like yeah, it is, and I'll use an example. So, like, here's an example around the liked, wanted, invited and honored. Like right now, you and I have had what I would very much call a wanted conversation, with me ticking periodically into invited because you're being incredibly respectful and kind to me and basically going Joanna, you're a genius every couple of seconds, Amazing, Thank you very much. Because you're like oh, I really, really want that.
01:18:59
But we are pretty much playing and wanted and most people who aren't have fairly good self-confidence and confidence in the other person live in that space and it means that we've been kind of been able to say anything to each other with massive amounts of generosity. Now, had you come onto this podcast and been like, oh, tell me all the things and just done what I call optimized for liked, it would have been a very out of balance conversation. Or if I the other direction, given you all the power and basically I had come in and been like how do we make sure your audience, you like me? I had to come across as gross right Now. Let's take so we are, are, we've now agreed, we're playing within like to want it. Now let's just pretend for a second that Michelle Obama pops onto this call with us, yay right, love her.
01:19:53
Good fun right right.
01:19:56
Uh, I'm pretty confident I'm getting that. You're pretty confident too. I would wobble Michelle Obama pretty confident too. I would wobble Michelle Obama popped on this call, I'd be like holy crap, Michelle, and I'd have a problem. I really wish I didn't, but I would have a problem being my confident. I get you. I'm just a normal person who puts pants on one leg at a time. Person With fucking Michelle Obama on the podcast. I would absolutely wobble. Put Bette Midler on the podcast.
01:20:20
I would absolutely put that middle on this podcast. I would lose my mind, like I'd be like, yeah, and I'm really sorry, but that village on the podcast I have to like. Oh my God, I would like. I'm losing it Just thinking about the idea.
01:20:45
It's very hmm, nope, I've yet to meet a CEO, specifically, who doesn't have an honored problem across their entire organization because their team are optimizing for liked. They all look at like. Every time I have a conversation with a CEO, they're like damn it, Joanna, don't they understand that? I just want them to be awesome and that's a power dynamic problem. And so when I come back to the awesome young woman that you said was full of potential is are they optimizing for liked? Because they have honor, they are automatically giving honor power to the person who has power to make decisions, and I say that with the. Of course, this is the thing that like. One day. One day, my internal give a shit meter will be low enough that I won't care if bett midler or michelle obama get on the podcast, but today, like every human being on the planet, I struggle.
01:21:42
Yeah.
01:21:42
And unless you're like one of the paths. Ah, that's tough. I shouldn't. No, there's just very few people who are awesome. Actually, there's some not awesome people who don't have a problem with this.
01:21:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But also you don't always know who you're going to feel like, who? I'm going to rephrase this you don't always know who you're going to feel like who I'm going to rephrase this. You don't always know how you're going to react, yeah, when you like someone. So, for example, one of the people that really sort of stopped me in my tracks and I could not utter a word in front of him. I was literally like an. I mean, I was just embarrassing and I had to spend an entire.
01:22:18
I had to spend an entire evening feeling like the weirdest version of myself was the late Alexander McQueen, the designer, and I had no idea I was going to lose my shit that badly, I don't know. There was something about him that really touched me and it just rendered me pretty much speechless the entire night I spent. Also, I once met Claudia Schiffer. I've met tons of famous people. I was absolutely fine talking to them, but I don't know. She was in the store and I was a little girl in a boutique and she turned around and she looked like Remarkable looking. Yeah, she looked like a unicorn of some kind. I literally I went bright red and left the room and ran down the stairs. I was like I mean, I could not look less cool, Could not?
01:23:07
And the irony is there are absolutely people who are unicorns. I think that's the right description. Cindy Crawford once came into my bathing suit store and even she has it Like I lost it and got my shit together because I was like I can't put Cindy Crawford into a bathing suit because she needed a swimsuit and like, ridiculous, super lovely.
01:23:26
The reality is, is they just like it's so unusual for them to have a normal human being around them? As much as people are like, oh I want to be famous, like there's a price, there's a huge price to pay because of that yes, now I want to think about some of our audience members, or old version of myself.
01:23:50
For example, what advice would you have for someone who feels stuck or unseen and he wants to step into the future version of themselves? He wants to become aware of their own potential?
01:24:04
Okay, I'm going to give your audience an exercise to do, because here's the thing there isn't a, there isn't one thing you can. I mean, there is an exercise you can do right now to start it, but you have to decide to be on this path of how do I make it easy for other people to recognize and remember my potential is the question. But the first again I come back to what is? What are people saying today? This is the exercise I challenge people to do, which will scare the crap out of everybody because it's weird.
01:24:40
But I do that on purpose, because to actually go down this path, you have to have a bit of courage, and it's what I call the three word exercise Super simple. Here's what you're going to do is you are going to choose five people in your network and if you're stuck professionally, these should only be professional people. This is not a conversation to have with your mom or your siblings or your spouse or your friends. These are people who are buying your time. I really recommend that and I say that because your mom had a tale of potential before you were born and we all know that mom has a whole story that we're like no, no, not that.
01:25:15
Anyway we love mom. So five people who professionally buy you. If you have a boss, it should be one of them. One of them should be your boss, minimum. Do not be a chicken shit and just do peers and colleagues or people who report into you Be a bit brave and do people who are buying your time. So cross-functional people, people more senior than you, et cetera, et cetera. So cross-functional people, people more senior than you, et cetera, et cetera.
01:25:41
Step two on this is have a conversation. Do not be lazy in this situation. Do this on email or text, because you will get bad data. I'll explain on another day why. If people are interested, you have a conversation and you just this is a five minute conversation at most and you come up to them and you go hey, I was listening to this podcast the other day and this woman who calls herself a potentialist said I should do this. I have a quick experiment. Can I ask you two questions? Now? There's a reason I just did that whole preamble thing Because by blaming me for doing this exercise, you are minimizing the power problem immediately.
01:26:28
This is the way to take the power thing out of the equation, because now they feel like they're doing a favor for me and not for you. Power sorted Almost immediately. It's magical. Plus, if it goes sideways, I'm the one to blame. I'm going to take all the blame on this Plus. Third one you also said the word potential is still going to be. Like what the heck is that? I just planted a seed for a potential conversation in the future Just with that sentence. Okay, that's the first thing that you're going to do. The second if they say no, whatever, you move on. If they say yes, you go okay. So question one here's where the three words come in. You're going to say what two words would you use to describe me in a room I'm not in? I know you just made a face because you're like oh my God, I'd have to say that.
01:27:06
I just love the question. I think it's such an inspiring question.
01:27:14
Simple question and so you're going to get two words. By the way, write these down, because you're going to ask five people. You're looking for patterns. Then you're going to say awesome, thank you, because they're going to say nice things about you. Then you say what one positive word would you use that doesn't describe me? Now, that is going to throw everybody into a loop because they're then going to say probably a negative word about you and you have to correct them because I said a positive word that does not describe me. Because what happens when you ask those first question is the first question is going to you're going to get the lazy answer. They're going to be like really good at getting shit done, really strategic, boring, boring, boring. The answer to the second, the positive word that does not describe you, is going to give you insight into the truth of who you are and what you're about.
01:28:03
Now, warning label whatever they say, you are probably going to be like what are you talking about? I'm totally that Like when I did this. I do this on myself every year just to make sure it's still on track. This is why I got the word potential show place, because that was a positive word. That did the word I get all the time is the positive word that does not describe me is gentle. And I was like what are you talking about? I'm totally gentle. And people look at me and they're like are you kidding me? I have a girlfriend who literally has. She invited me to a cocktail party, a dinner party, once and literally put a warning label on me and it was like do not sit next to Joanna because she will scare the crap out of you. And I was like are you kidding me? And she goes no, this is what you do. And I was like is this a bad thing? And she goes no, it's not for the people who want to have this the crap scared out of them. And I was like this is kind of amazing. And so I've learned now, like people often come to me and they're like they think they want a hug and I'm like no, no, no, no, I give you a swift kick in the ass and if you're coming to me for a hug, I'm not the right person, right? It's such an insightful word.
01:29:13
And then if they say something and you're like ask them why, right, you ask five people. You get now you've got a pattern into how people are describing you in a room that you're not in, without saying how would you describe me, and like you kind of are, but not really saying how would you describe me in a room that you're not in. It's a bit like. This is why I think referrals are so insane, too, because no one actually says the truth and you're trying to get to the truth. The magic part of this exercise is because it's a weird set of questions. People are going to ask you questions. Well, either and as an indicator, either they're going to be like what the hell was that? What is this all about? And then you can say well, this woman was talking about the idea that every decision made about you is made in a room that you're not in. And then wanted to know, like, what would people say? And so I thought, thought I'd ask. It doesn't matter who I've talked to.
01:30:03
Everybody takes that sentence and goes, oh shit yeah which now gives you and every time I hear it.
01:30:11
Yeah, every time you go, oh shit right, oh shit, and what happens?
01:30:15
so back to the power thing and why the power thing is important. When you, you now have an oh shit moment, because the oh shit is not about the other person, it's about you you now have a shared oh shit moment with somebody yeah, and it doesn't matter who they are. And then you can. You can actually have a real human to human conversation, which pops you into the wanted invited space, which means you have a genuine connection with somebody. It allows you to have this conversation and, like, assume for a second, this person is actually very cool and kind of awesome. Now you can actually sit here and go. They'll probably say to you, like, why are you asking? This is why I talk about momentum creating it is a catalyst for a conversation.
01:30:58
Yeah, yeah, and I think, as we started this conversation a couple of hours ago already, there is a universal challenge for human beings to talk about themselves. Once you know this is inserted in the conversation, then it really does open it up.
01:31:19
Yeah, why would you invite me as another really great question? Why would you invite me onto a project that's a secondary, like do that afterwards, like after they've had the words, because if you start with that it comes across as a bit aggressive. But why would you invite me as another really good question after that? And you'll notice I'm going to keep banging this drum, because this is the thing that people always get wrong is they think, oh, if I just have the right positioning language, all the magic shit will happen. And because it's the third, it can never be a positioning, because positioning puts you in a box and potential is never in a box.
01:31:59
Yeah, that's why your four-dimension conversation, yeah, really resonates. It's outside of the boundaries that we normally think, right it's where all the magic lives that's where the future lives. It's all the things now.
01:32:16
I think this transitions nicely to a part of the book that I really enjoyed. So when we think about career potential, some of what you express could be seen or used like tactics. Right, but at the end of part three, you talk about the importance of being for who you are, which really, really speaks to me, and actually I think it speaks to the example that you gave about your own career when you were talking about I'm not the person on the CV, I'm this other thing, and you made it clear that you didn't want to be chosen for the wrong thing. Yeah, so could you share your thoughts about what authenticity means in this concept and what it means to you?
01:32:58
It's such a loaded word, isn't it? The net-net on this. It's just way too exhausting not to be authentic. It's like lying right. The challenge with authenticity, though, as a human being, is there's some stuff that, like you are who you are, who you are so like for me. I'm a bit sassy. I make jokes, I make up words, I like to poke the bear. Nothing I love more than poking a very strong-minded man. It's fun, right, I'm a bit naughty, I'm a bit lazy, like that's very who I am. And if you'd met me when I was eight, that's authentic me. It's actually really like one of my favorite questions is what will you get at when you were eight? Because that tells me a lot about who is authentic you. And then there's evolving you, which is just as authentic, and I'll say, like, I think I've met six people ever who have known from the beginning who they wanted to be, and of those six people, only about half of them have had the courage to step into who that person is.
01:34:04
I am fascinated by that.
01:34:06
And I think that you are supposed to know who that person is at the beginning is complete and utter nonsense. I didn't. There's some basics through you. I know, as an example, that in the flight, fight, fawn and freeze options of like when things scare me, I am a fighter, both tactically and emotionally, like there's some things like that. But no, this is, I think, the human experience. Like I had, I thumbs up people who figured out who they want to be, and I do think that happens, but I think it's so much rarer than we think. Plus, it's also terrifying when you you're like well, this is who I'm supposed to be, because then you don't have any other options. You can only be that person, and the rest of us are just figuring out who we are all the time, and so I think it's too exhausting to lie and it's an evolving thing. So that's it.
01:35:10
The other thing about authenticity, or just the idea of it, is things feel inauthentic when the expectations of who you are going to be and the expectations of who you are are out of sync, and so I then also come back and go well, if you're like, I don't know who authentic me is, I sit here and I go again. I come back to the choosing who do you want to have? Choose you, what do they want to choose you for? Like why should they invite you to play with them? And if you can get the answer to those two questions, you're on the right path. Like who and why?
01:35:51
Very helpful, very helpful. I was thinking about this particular question as well, because one of the people that I studied with and became facilitated with is a coach in California called Tara Moore and she has a great, great book called Playing Big which is for women. I highly recommend it, and she has a wonderful guided meditation to invite us to meet our inner mentor and listen. It doesn't work for every person, it's not necessarily the best experience the first time around, but it tends to be more positive than negative and the inner mentor is like it's like future, you meets the wisest you kind of thing. It's like you know, it's not quite your future, but somehow it feels related to it and ever since I've had that connection to this it's a potentialist move.
01:36:49
let's say and she doesn't feel scary. It feels reassuring. There is something very authentic and aligned and strangely magic about it. Amazing, once in a while I like to go and visit her. I love that. There you go. Now you also write about how you dream about the day you can stand up on stage unironically in a sequined ball gown with a wand speaking about the future of work and how it could be so much better with a bit of transformation. So my question is how can I make it happen? How can I support you?
01:37:25
Invite me to play, like that's the. That is the thing. Invite me to play. I have a lot of favorite things to do, but one of my like en masse favorite things to do is to what I call wake up a conference. Wake up an event More than one person at a time is really the thing, because, as you have referenced, I do get on stages and I say I get on a stage, I get in an audience.
01:37:48
I'm like an opening act where I come in and I sit here and go. If you have brought a ton of people together, it is their potential with each other and potential in the room that you are trying to tap into. Doesn't matter what you were talking about. And I have a really like PT Barnum meets a keynote speaker, meets transformations Like it's nuts. This is why I wear sequins, because I'm all like. I get up on. I've been known to get up on furniture. I do all sorts of crazy things and I've done it with massive audiences and like rooms full of 20 people, sure, but I come in and I basically have them. They'll see me do the transformation, but I have them then transform each other and when human beings in a room start to see the potential in each other, like the ripple effect, is insane because everybody in like less than an hour feels like they matter, feels a little bit braver, feels like a potentialist and is laughing, which is magic when you are running an event where you're like we need to think differently. It is the ultimate fear destroyer because basically everybody almost immediately it's like ultimate fear destroyer because basically everybody almost immediately it's like, yeah, trust falls are not the thing. It's this entire experience that I have a hard time describing sometimes, but I come in and I do that and that is such a fun thing to do for me and the audience. It's like the most ultimate positive sum plus, I will say, for the event producers. The social media team usually ends up losing their shit because the amount of content we create out of that experience is off the chart. And I will say this because I'm going to dare your audience.
01:39:27
I had one client who, when we were doing this, we were going to be in a conference room in Las Vegas at like nine o'clock in the morning and it was a bunch of people coming in from all over the United States and I said to the organizer I said do you want potentialist me to show up more. Do you want fairy godmother me to show up more? You tell me, like how much do you want to slide this? And she goes oh, no, no, no, we totally want the fairy godmother Like lean into her big time. And I was like hooray, yes, I like either, but then to rock the sequence and I get to talk about Cinderella more. And I laughed and I said well, you know, it seems appropriate that we're doing this in a conference in Las Vegas, because who can't wear a sequence in Las Vegas? And I turned to her and I was like do you think we could dare the audience to show up in sequence at nine o'clock on like a Tuesday morning? And she was like we could ask, they had themes. They had themes.
01:40:21
There was one woman running around with like edible glitter. I walked into the room I still have goosebumps thinking about it, it was so glorious. And the social media guy came running up to me and he was like what have you done? This is amazing. They created a step and repeat for the participants so they could get pictures and like they were wearing evening wear at nine o'clock in the morning and it completely changed the energy of the room.
01:40:45
Now, that's an extreme version of it. I had the one where I was in a speakeasy with 10 CEOs and we had a very intimate session. But it's this creating momentum with each other thing that is super fun to do, and that experience starts to create the conversation around potential and the silent sentences we create in our head and making things less scary in the future, which is how I like to wield my magic power Plus, like I want to do this with as many physical people as possible, like as many people as possible, because we all feel like we have a little bit more agency at the end of the day when we do, and so I'm like invite me to play, and yeah let's make it happen.
01:41:28
I really wish that Ted would have you back as that. That would be so fantastic.
01:41:34
I've done it at some TEDx's yeah.
01:41:37
There's a part of me that's thinking should do something in fashion, because you know we could really have fun with the ball gown.
01:41:45
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.
01:41:46
That would be fun, cause people have the yeah, cause you'd be directly going to the other magical part of it.
01:41:53
Yes, yeah, I do all sorts of stuff with Ted now, because they don't invite people back to do something they've already done. I also sit here and say, like, sequence aside, I do love working with very clever, very powerful people, which is what happens at TED. I have run a session there, but the time I did it with a bunch of high school students, I will absolutely say I was terrified because I was like what am I going to get here? I was absolutely terrified. This is why the follow-up book will be Tales of Potential for Teens, because there's a different conversation that needs to happen there.
01:42:29
Of course, I have a 15-year-old girl who's co-authoring it with me. Oh, yeah, I remember you mentioning it. Yes, of course she is amazing. We're going to do that because I don't want to be cringe but, like the people who haven't had power predominantly, letting them actually feel what it likes to have power and to not only have power but to give power is like the exponential impact is way higher there, and so, like there's a I mean like everybody, like I do this because this is who little Joanna needed I wish I'd had my own fairy godmother.
01:43:08
Yeah, I hear you.
01:43:10
Yeah, for your listeners. I get to talk about this all the time professionally. This is super fun for me, and getting to speak with people about the work that I do, as you can tell, is a lot of fun for me and really interesting. What you missed was what I said to Anne at the beginning of this conversation is often people come with fairly canned questions based on their agenda and what they're doing, and certainly questions to allow me to talk about it, but it's a non zero sum game conversation at best or a zero sum conversation at worst. Very rarely does an interview become a positive sum conversation and you have created that. So I thank you for doing your homework and reading the book and doing all the things Now.
01:44:07
It's amazing, I had the best time and I have to say the fact that I it did help that I had the Easter weekend to spend more time with you. But I engage everyone and I will put the links to various interviews and podcasts I've heard and so they can also witness the magic of the transformation that you do on stage. I took notes, that's how much it felt. It felt transformative even though I was just witnessing someone else's transformation, and I'm so happy that we had the opportunity to meet and if there's anything that me and this wonderful audience is going to hear you can do to support you, then I hope that we can Thank you. I hope I one day can be in a room with you. We're going to make that. Is there anything that you want to add? Before I go to my fantastically special closing questions, because I do love them?
01:45:05
No, I mean, I'm on all the things under Joanna Bloor. If people want to follow, I do have a sub stack that I write every week where I talk about potentialism and how to get people to invite you more. Yeah, that's the place to find me. If people want more, buy the book. It'd be amazing. I'd love to hear more people's thoughts on it. There will be more. There's more ideas in my head that I can get out.
01:45:29
I can believe that. I can believe that. I hope that you do write about quantum and I need to follow your sub stack.
01:45:38
I think I did not click that there's an article about quantum pen. I've written it all up. People can go read it and or share with other people.
01:45:45
Wonderful.
01:45:46
Yep.
01:45:48
Now. So for my closing questions. I like to ask all of these because I guess that it's incredibly enriching to listen to different people's stories around their favorite things. But the first question I'd like to ask is around how do you keep yourself grounded? Because the show is at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, because I am a mindfulness meditation teacher and mentor, and even though our conversation was not geared towards self-care practices or spirituality of that kind, it feels like a miss if I don't ask my guests what works for you, what keeps you inspired, grounded, healthy or happy, or any of the above.
01:46:36
Inspired is new people. Nothing, nothing, I love more than meeting a new person. They always. Every human being is inspirational, as all get out, constant font of awesomeness, grounded, healthy and happy is.
01:46:51
I have a hundred pound newfoundland mix dog oh she is the size of a small person and we live my home almost backs onto about 100 miles of federal parkland. Wow, and like miles and miles and miles. This is why I live in Northern California. It's glorious, I can go, I can hike for all day and never be done, and she and I out there in trees with bunnies and coyotes and deer, and nature is literally what roots me to the earth. And I am obsessed with my dog, obsessed.
01:47:40
What's her name?
01:47:42
Boudica, who, for the European folks, might know who she is yes, she was a complete. She was the original lady badass yeah who, when the Romans came to England and said we're taking over, was like I think no. And she got a little cross. And my dog is about as scary as a feather. She's just like the most chill. Can we just nap and cuddle? So while I gave her a fierce name, she's about as fierce as a doorknob.
01:48:13
I'm so glad I asked. I'm also obsessed with my dog, so you know, I hear you and my two cats, yeah. So now, what is your favorite word and I like to wrap this in with context a word that you could theoretically tattoo on yourself.
01:48:33
Well, the easy answer would be potentialist, because it is my word, but actually magic word. But actually magic. There's a I forget who does the quote. Technology is indistinguishable from magic. Like all of the new stuff feels like magic before it comes a thing yeah and we like there's a whole conversation around fakery and not fake. Plus, I have a friend who's a magician, who's been trying. He's like we need to put magic into your act and I'm like, oh my god, yes, please oh, wow it is science and spooky all in one, and I I come back to human potential is magic.
01:49:21
Yeah, Well, on that note. What does connection mean to you?
01:49:30
Oh, future shenanigans, the end.
01:49:36
Simple. I appreciate that what song best represents you.
01:49:44
I had a hard time because I was like, oh, what song would do that? I have two Everything's Coming Up Roses, which is Mama's song from Gypsy, and I'm Still here from. Follies comes as a close second, Older, powerful woman going hey, don't count me out yet in both situations and a song of self-belief.
01:50:13
Oh, that's great. I have a fabulous version live of Barbara Streisand singing. I'm Still here.
01:50:15
It's so good, so so good. You've heard me talk about Bette Midler a couple of times. I want to be Bette Midler when I grow up.
01:50:20
Oh, I can see that. Yeah, I feel like that. Okay, I can see the potentiality. The thread's there, yeah, the thread's there, absolutely. What is the sweetest thing that's ever happened to you?
01:50:31
Oh my God, this one was so easy. So the crazy in my house is not just me. My husband is 100% the opposite. He is an adventure sailor and writer, which basically means he goes to sea for very long periods of time by himself and has done some very dramatic things. The first time he left for two years to sail around the Pacific in our at the time 31-foot sailboat by himself, and he knew at the time I was being very cool and being like of course you can quit your job and go to sea and spend all our money and potentially never come back again. And so he called up the place I was working at the time and coordinated with the front desk person there and said look, I know Joanna doesn't like birthdays and the traditional stuff.
01:51:24
He goes. I know she likes it when somebody does something unexpected and he goes, and at the time I was a road warrior, princess, and I was on the road. All the time he goes I don't know when she's going to be home to send flowers to, and so can you. Here's my very difficult to get hold of him while he's at sea. Here's my contact information for when I'm at sea You'll know when she will be in the office. Can you connect with her team?
01:51:52
So basically, my team and the front desk person figured out how to message Randall to say Joanna's in town every single month. They would then get a poem from him, back from him, to say this is how much I love you today, from the middle of the ocean, which they would then package up and send to a florist who was local who would then deliver the flowers to make sure that they were there on my desk with a custom poem every month that he was gone for a year. And I had no idea the behind the scenes shenanigans Like I asked every I was like how is this happening? How is this happening? No one would tell me. And these flowers kept on showing up with these personal poems every single time, and it was such a unbelievably sweet and such a message of gratitude and I'm thinking of you and like are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?
01:52:48
That's beautiful, but then you did something very beautiful for him too.
01:52:53
It has. I joke, I call myself a fractional wife now. It weirdly didn't know that the result of saying yes, you should go to sea for well, originally, what was a year ended up being two, would unlock futures for us both that we could have never imagined. Now he is sailing from Newfoundland, canada, which is a very northern, northwestern point of Canada, all the way to Cape Horn this year. So he's gone right now again. But I get a cool husband who does adventurous things, which is fun.
01:53:28
Thank you so much for sharing. Now, what is a secret superpower that you have? And I'm saying secret as in you haven't told us about it yet.
01:53:36
Oh shoot, because the super one is the transformation thing.
01:53:41
Well, you must have another one. We all do.
01:53:46
Well, that's a very good question. What other superpower do I have? Because that's the easy question for me. We've talked about my weight earlier. I can jog very slowly, very far. I've run multiple marathons, gazillion half marathons, multiple triathlons. I'm like the little engine that could. I may look like I lay on the floor and eat bonbons all day. Sometimes we're working on that. But yeah, like yeah, should the world completely collapse and I don't get wiped out in the first wave Like I have like staying power, my ability to negotiate for potatoes and like run on nothing, I will be fine.
01:54:34
I will be one of those survivors. That's a great superpower. I'm so glad I asked that question.
01:54:42
What is a favorite book that you can share with us? Oh, I had so many to think about, but the book that I keep telling people about that I'm just like, oh, it's so good, is a book called humans by Matt Haig. It's fiction, and I'm obsessed with fiction.
01:54:51
I love oh, I've read Matt Haig before yeah, but most people have read the midnight library exactly. I liked. I did not love. I like the frame.
01:55:00
Humans is the synopsis of humans, is the assumption is that the Federation a la Star Trek exists. We, however, but we haven't been invited into the Federation yet because we just haven't figured out the stuff yet, which I was like that's a really interesting premise and I like that. Anyway, there's a character in the book who figures out a mathematical equation that means that our technology would jump into having the technology to be invited into the Federation. And the Federation is all like, like they're kind of crazy, do we really want to invite them? And so they send an alien down to check it out and basically eradicate the mathematical calculation before it spreads. And they have to invite them because they're like we don't think so, because we think humans are crazy.
01:55:58
And it is the story of the alien coming to Earth. It's all from the alien's perspective and it is funny and, like Matt Haig is such a observer of humanity writer, like all of his books, all of his books put such an interesting lens, but that lens specifically, I was like this is delightful and the whole story is the life as a human from an alien perspective and I won't spoil whether we get to find it or not, but it's just delightful.
01:56:31
Talk to me about selling. I mean I'm a hundred percent buying the book. This sounds great. What a premise. It's crazy it's crazy, it's crazy also based on current state of humanity. If that existed, I'd be like, yeah, sure I'd. Yeah, I would not.
01:56:48
And now I will also say, only because I think she is a genius, I think claire north, the writer, she's written the first 15 lives of harry august. It's all about time travel. So fascinating, the sudden appearance of hope, which you might think you know what the book is about. It is not what you think it is about, it's about invisibility. She is such like you can probably tell. I love a book, I love fiction that has a technical adjustment to it, that has a human lens. So my fiction matches who I am and she has such an interesting way of thinking about humanity as well that just makes you go wait what? Yeah, good, the entree book, for that is the First 15 Lies of Harry August. It's history, time travel and a bit of a whodunit at the same time.
01:57:46
That sounds great.
01:57:48
Yeah, she's amazing.
01:57:49
I was looking left because my dog just arrived and just dropped a bull at my feet, so we know what time it is.
01:57:56
There's a tale of potential right there.
01:57:58
Oh, tell me about it. I have a feeling I know what happens next. Imagine that you can step into a future version of yourself. Imagine it. Yeah, what is the most important advice that you think future you needs to give to present time you?
01:58:16
Be less scared. Fear it's the ultimate kneecapper. Every time I've told it to F off, it's paid off.
01:58:32
And that brings me to my last question what brings you happiness?
01:58:37
The face of the person as I am doing a transformation, the face of the person as I am doing a transformation. There's something I only get to see when I'm on, especially when I pull somebody up on stage they have been so brave to because people know they've been so brave to put their hand up and stand in front of a bunch of strangers and be unbelievably vulnerable. Plus, they already know I'm going to make them like their before is terrible and they know it's terrible. And as I'm asking them questions and as I'm doing the transformation, uh, I'm right next to them and I see their face close up Nobody else does and I see their face go from I am a complete, not a waste of space to I might be magical. I am a complete and utter waste of space to I might be magical and, yeah, I'm going to cry. That's the bit that I just I live for.
01:59:29
That's amazing. Yeah, thank you so much, Joanna. It was such a joyful and fascinating conversation. I'm so excited that I had the opportunity to meet you and talk to you. I am going to put all the links to all the things we talked about in the show notes and I'm going to invite our audience to get in touch with you, especially since you prompted them with questions and thought starters for them to step into their own potential, which I think is wonderful. Have a beautiful rest of the day. I wish really hard that we're going to find ourselves in each other's physical presence sometime in the day. I wish really hard that we're going to find ourselves in each other's physical presence sometime in the future and to the great and the wonders of your potential and to that day on stage in that ball gown. I can't wait to see it happen.
02:00:14
Me and you both. Thanks so much.
02:00:16
You're so welcome. See you soon. You're so welcome. See you soon. So, friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice, and if you'd like to connect with me, you can find me at Anne V, on threads on Instagram, Anne V Muhlethaler. On LinkedIn If you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes or on Instagram, at underscore. Out of the Clouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website outoftheclouds.com. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the MetaView, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, conscious communication and the future of work. That's the MettaView with two Ts themettaview.com. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe and take care.