In this episode of Out of the Clouds, host Anne Mühlethaler welcomes Karen Salmansohn, a bestselling author who has sold over 2 million books globally and describes herself as someone who puts "Psychology Today and Mad Magazine in a blender and presses frappé." Known for writing self-help books for people who wouldn't be caught dead reading self-help and pioneering the self-help book with attitude—she was the first personal development author to put a curse word in a book title with "How to Be Happy, Dammit"—Karen brings her signature blend of wisdom and wit to every conversation.
In her interview with Anne, Karen speaks about how her journey from senior VP creative director in advertising to bestselling author began with a bold leap of faith driven by pure passion. After achieving early success in advertising (including winning a Clio in her first six months on the job), she realised she wanted to write a novel. After threatening to quit, she finally did. Karen shares the story of how this bold decision led to a remarkable career spanning novels, self-help books, and everything in between. After her first novel, she started to pen books meant to inspire people to think in new ways, which she found more fulfilling than writing copy to convince the same people to switch toothpaste brands.
Next Anne and Karen explore the inspiration behind Karen's latest book, "Your To-Die-For Life," which emerged from both her experience of "near-life experiences" (being life-adjacent rather than fully present) and the profound impact of her father's death. Karen shares how giving her father's eulogy prompted her to write her own, which led to a thorough reassessment of her priorities and inspired her to move from working in "beast mode" to what she now calls "best mode."
The discussion delves deep into Karen's practical framework for living intentionally, including her seven core values that she reverse-engineered from the top regrets of the dying (Authentic, Brave, Curious, Discerning, Empathic Love, Fun, and Gratitude). Karen also explains her powerful concept of identity-based habits and "to-die lists"—daily practices that help align your actions with who you want to become, using the format "I am [core value] and so I do [action]."
One of the most compelling parts of their conversation centers on Karen's marble jar ritual—a tangible way to practice mortality awareness with each marble representing a remaining month of life, creating a monthly ritual of reflection and intentional living. Karen describes herself as a "middle of life doula:" someone helping people create meaningful change while there's still a runway ahead.
Throughout the interview, Karen demonstrates her gift for making profound concepts accessible through humor and practical tools. From her early days writing silly poems about chemistry homework to helping readers navigate life's heaviness with levity, she embodies her belief that humor is a great survival tool and that we can find awe and meaning in everyday moments.
The conversation touches on behavioral change, the importance of meaningful relationships, the power of curiosity as an antidote to fear, and how mortality awareness can awaken us to make each day more beautiful and purposeful. Karen's approach isn't about morbid fixation on death, but rather using awareness of life's finite nature to live more vividly and intentionally.
A thoughtful and inspiring conversation that offers both practical tools and philosophical insights for anyone seeking to live more fully and authentically.
Happy listening!
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Karen's Work:
Referenced in the Interview:
Karen's Notable Books Mentioned:
Karen's Song Picks:
Philosophical References:
Links:
Some of Karen’s most successful titles:
The upcoming book:
Karen’s picks for the song that best represents her
https://open.spotify.com/track/2yx1kAK1Fe2zTOsaDKSNBk?si=4a71f79f8dd54b55
Alanis Morissette You Learn (live)
Brave by Sarah Bareilles https://open.spotify.com/track/6Uy6K3KdmUdAfelUp0SeXn?si=4b6e66955a8743f2
00:04
Hi, hello, bonjour and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I'm your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Hello, hello. I'm delighted to be back here with you with a very special episode featuring the brilliant Karen Salmansohn. Now I have to confess something. When Karen's agent reached out about having her on the show, it took me a minute and then I realized that I actually own one of her books. It's the one about training your man, like you would a dog, which had me in stitches when I got it a couple of years ago. I bought it after I got my first dog, so this interview was a real treat for me.
00:56
Karen is a best-selling author who has sold over 2 million books globally, and she has the most wonderful way of describing her work. She says it's like putting psychology today and mad magazine in a blender and pressing frappe. Karen writes self-help books for people who wouldn't be caught dead reading self-help, and she pioneered what I'd say is self-help with serious attitude. She was actually the first personal development author to put a curse word in a book title with the now famed how to be happy. Damn it. But behind all that humor lies wisdom, and particularly around living intentionally. In our conversation today, Karen shares the deeply personal story behind her latest book, your to die for life, which was inspired by both her experience with what she calls near life experiences so being life adjacent rather than fully present and the sad, yet transformative, impact of her father's death. We dive into her practical framework for intentional living, including her seven core values that she has reverse engineered from the top. Regrets of the dying, Karen introduces us to the concept of identity-based habits and to-die lists instead of to-do lists, and she shares her powerful marble jar ritual that makes mortality awareness tangible and surprisingly uplifting. Karen describes herself as a middle-of-life doula, helping people create meaningful change while they're still runway ahead. People create meaningful change while they're still runway ahead. Her approach, as you'll see, is not at all about any kind of morbid fixation on death, but rather using awareness of life's finite nature to live more vividly and purposefully.
03:00
This is a conversation that stayed with me. Obviously, I read the book before we spoke. So, between the conversation and the podcast recording, let me tell you that I've been approaching my mornings, in particular, in a different way. So I hope that this will be an invitation for you to discover this new book, Karen's work and perhaps to embrace the idea of living a to die for life. So settle in and let's dive in with Karen Salmansohn. Happy listening, Karen. It's such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining me on Out of the Clouds.
03:38
Oh, I'm so glad to be here.
03:40
Good, so tell me first, where am I finding you today?
03:48
good. So tell me first, where am I finding you today? This is New York City. That's a real view back there. Yeah, and actually, if I do this, although it's a little heated- up.
03:54
That's the Chrysler building.
03:55
Absolutely I recognize it and then we have the empire state building over there yeah so it's a very like new york view. That was part of the reason why I decided to move here. I fell in love with the views. I don't have views of trees necessarily but, at night it's almost like urban constellations, because you see the night sky lit up by all these twinkly buildings and it's very pretty.
04:23
Yeah, I remember I first came to New York when I was 14 years old and I think I fell in love with New York at night we were staying and still was in town renting a friend of a friend's apartment, and I remember just watching the lights of New York City at night and just thinking I will live there one day and I did a few years ago. But it's funny how magical the light can make the city feel.
04:48
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
04:52
So, as you may already know, I love to start the podcast by asking my guests to tell their story, and the reason why I start there is because we often default by talking about what we do. Start there is because we often default by talking about what we do, which is all well and good, but I also like to do a little bit of exploration and a little bit of digging, because I think that oftentimes, where we come from and what we went through informs a lot of what we do, and so, if that's okay though I know it's a big question Would you tell us your story?
05:23
I know it's a big question. Would you tell us your story, my story, okay, well, I'll go really far back in time to when I was a little girl and I used to love to sit in my room and write and draw and read, and I sometimes think about that because it's kind of what I do now. I sit in my New York apartment and I write and I draw and I read and I design, because that's what the internet has you do. You know, I design those Instagram posts and stuff like that, but it's sort of the equivalent of drawing.
05:57
And when I was a little girl, I was always fascinated by psychology and humor and my mom used to ask me if I want to go with her in the car to pick up my dad from the train station. And I used to love to go because across the street from the train station was this little mom and pop shop and they sold magazines and I would go in and grab one psychology today and one mad Magazine. And I sometimes think if you took Psychology Today and Mad Magazine, put it in a blender and pressed frappe, you would get the books that I do, because I love writing about psychology and philosophy with humor, so it makes it easier to digest. You know, a spoonful of humor helps the. You know the personal development tips.
06:52
That's really quite wonderful. Was there someone in your household that was particularly humorous?
06:59
You know it's interesting. My mother and father are humorous. My brother is a pretty serious guy but my father told dad jokes. I think he was probably the first dad in the universe to tell dad jokes and all dad jokes have come from him. That's how I sort of see him.
07:14
You know, we'd be at the dinner table I still remember this one and we'd be passing around the spinach and he'd say, karen, you know why they call spinach spinach? And you know the first time I would go no. And then he'd say, karen, you know why they call spinach spinach, and you know the first time I would go no. And then he'd say, listen to the sound it makes when it hits your plate. And then he'd put it and he'd go spinach, spinach. You hear the sound Like these dad jokes. And then he was telling that to me until I was like 20. And I'd be like spinach, spinach.
07:41
But, sure enough, I have told that same one to my son. I pastored it down, credited my dad for it. But he would tell all these silly little jokes, and my mom is definitely someone who loves to joke.
07:53
Did it help the spinach go down or get in?
07:57
I like spinach. Maybe I like it more because of my dad's joke, but he would tell like very much the dad jokes yeah.
08:06
And is your son now eating the spinach?
08:09
He does. My son likes vegetables and my son is very funny, so in fact I want to raise him to be. I think enjoying humor is a great survival tool because, whatever happens, if you can just try to see it with the lens of humor it helps to heal. You know, I think it separates your ego from it too. If it's a personal story of something that happened, if there's a way to retell it, I've done that for myself. You know, if you can find the humor in it, it releases your ego a little bit.
08:41
Yeah, absolutely. And so, with this sort of side of humor meets psychology, with a touch of desire to explore philosophy. I'm curious what did you study? How was teenage Karen looking at the world?
08:57
Well, for the longest time I wanted to go into advertising and then I decided I wanted to do film. So I was a film major, philosophy minor. And then I went into advertising, first because I thought that was a way to do a little bit of everything, because I still liked the writing and the design and everything, and I thought, oh, advertising will be great because I'll get some of the psychology, I'll get some of the filmmaking by shooting TV commercials, some of the design by doing print ads, like I thought it was going to be fantastic for me, but it was very political and I rose up quickly. I got a Clio my first year in the business. Actually, I got a Clio my first six months in the business, one of the very first ads I did, which was really, you know, surprising to myself even, and I can tell you what it was.
09:52
Yeah, I was going to. You can tell that. I'm curious, Just for our listeners who may not know what a Clio is, would you kindly explain it as well?
10:01
I guess it's sort of the equivalent of the Oscars for people in advertising or something, or an Emmy or something like that is the award, and it was for a print ad for a Kodak disc camera. I'm giving away how old I am because I don't even know if anybody out there has ever heard of a Kodak disc camera. But they made a pocket size camera and you would still take out the film and you'd have to bring it to a place to have the film develop, but it was an instant camera and that was brand new idea an instant camera and the idea that they wanted to communicate was that it was quick and I took really good photos and they weren't yet cracking it because most people were writing clever, witty headlines above a photo.
10:47
But if you just take a static photo and put it in the print ad, it looked kind of boring and this was like a sensational new product and because I think in word picture and I hope to think that I write like that, even if it's just a book, like visual words.
11:03
Even I I've just always been both verbal and visual um which is why I like writing and design and illustration and like all of that, which is why I love film. Uh, and I thought of a verbal, visual solution and that was the idea. The ad that won the Clio for a print ad was, you saw, on a page let me see how I remember it a wind-up toy soldier, a yo-yo, a light switch and then a picture of the Codex Actus camera and underneath the camera so it was very pop art like and the colors were very pop art colors. Underneath the camera it said the easiest thing to use on this page and then it said the codec does camera. So it got your attention.
11:55
It still gets my attention, even though you're describing it to me in conversation.
12:00
Yeah, and then there was another ad that had a double page spread of a Grey's Anatomy of a finger. Do you know what Grey's Anatomy is? Which, again, is very visually striking, because the first thing you have to do is get people's attention in advertising and then get them to read photos. It like you don't want to stop and read it. So it's this gorgeous painting of a gray's anatomy of a finger stretched out across the page. And then the humor again, the humor underneath it. It said to use the kodak disc camera, just flex your flexor, digitai, and stretch your extensor, or something or other. I forgot what I wrote, but something like that. And then underneath it said all you have to do is push the button, because back then that was like pretty amazing because cameras were much more complicated. So that's what I did.
12:55
And that went on. So I think in visual words at the same time, visual verbal at the same time, whatever that skill is I do not know what it's called, but I can see it so much more now that you've described the ad itself as well. But I was wondering at which point did you find this passion for advertising? What was the catalyst? Was there an aha moment when you were like oh, that's what I'm going to do?
13:26
Well, I always wanted to write books. If I had to put it in an order, it was writing and then visuals. I could have stayed in advertising, but the politics and the work hours were. I rose up very quickly. I was a senior VP, creative director in my late 20s. So I could have just stayed creative director in my late 20s, so I could have just stayed, and in fact they call it having golden handcuffs because they're paying well, but I just wasn't happy. So I remember we had this one boss and we used to joke that he would say this was an exaggerated joke about him If you don't come in on Saturday, don't bother coming in on Sunday. So he would expect you to work on weekends. And then they had focus groups for everything.
14:09
I remember that my art director got told that his wife was pregnant on the same day we got given a Kraft mayonnaise commercial to create and his wife gave birth to a baby before we gave birth to the Kraft mayonnaise commercial. So it takes longer to create a commercial than a live human being. So I thought, well, that's kind of you know, weird. And then everything was focus grouped and there were a couple of stories that were troubling me at the time. There was one I was working on Purina Cat Show and I had to write a song. They had this. I think they still have a tune to Purina Cat Chow. We're like chow, chow, chow. Do you remember that little song? Purina Cat Chow, chow, chow, chow. Well, anyway, I put it to this song I feel the earth move under my paws. Do you remember? I feel the earth move? Oh my God. Yes, of course.
15:05
And then it was like I don't know what we did, but we were in this meeting and they were arguing whether or not the chow chow chow part was the beat of chow chow, chow, chow or chow chow, chow, chow. And did we really want to do ch? Ciao versus ciao? Ciao, ciao, ciao? I was like oh my God, and like things like that kept happening. This is not where I want to be, I want to write a book.
15:33
And so I kept telling my parents that I was going to quit and write books and they kept talking me out of it, like me saying mom dad, I'm going to, I want to be a novelist. Back then, mom dad I'm going to be a novelist was like mom dad, I'm going to be a Hare Krishna. They were like what a novelist. They were like no, and how can you quit? You're doing so well and I was like that's how I can quit. Ironically, if I was doing badly I'd probably feel too afraid to quit. But I'm thinking whatever I'm doing right here, if I apply it to something that's my truest passion, which was writing books, then I'll even do better maybe you know.
16:12
So I wound up quitting and not telling them for a little bit because they kept trying to talk me out of it. And then I sold my first book, which was a novel, to St Martin's Press and then later to Miramax, to be a movie starring the actress Marisa Tomei. And then I've got a lot of books that are bestsellers and at this point I've sold two million books globally. I guess it's hard to tell my parents that I quit my job.
16:40
I'm kidding it is right that I quit my job. I'm kidding, I told you it is right. Yeah, I was listening earlier today actually, to an interview you did a few years ago for the Good Life Project, so I heard the detailed story. I'll put the link in the show notes, the detailed story which I really wanted to hear about. Where did you get the confidence to start something you hadn't studied? Because it's one thing to step away from a career, but as I forgot the name of the host of the Good Life Project, but as the host was Jonathan Fields, there you go. Exactly, it takes a lot of confidence, or self-belief, or self-trust to pour yourself into something you've never done before. Would you tell me about what powered this for you?
17:34
You know it's interesting. I probably did that interview about 10 or 12 years ago, if I'm recalling, because I can think about it in terms of how old my son was when. I did that and I don't know if I'm going to tell you the same answer.
17:50
Oh no, and you don't need to tell me the same answer. No, I know, but I'm wondering how I want to go back and hear what my 10-year younger self remembered versus my present self thinking, Of course.
18:01
So I remember you speaking from a place of deep passion because, if I understand it correctly, you did not learn anywhere how to write a book. You basically threw yourself into the job of writing a novel with a very intense desire, which I find if I look back at my 20-something self. I wanted to be a singer. I pursued the passion of being a singer and singing and being on a stage with people with absolute blinders on. I could not care less about what would the consequences be of my choices, because it was so driven by passion.
18:40
I agree with that. I would give that same answer. Absolutely I would give that same answer. But I think that might've helped me in some ways not to be trained because I wrote a book in a style that was not yet a style. I wrote it before there was sex in the city that's how old I am. It was written kind of conversationally with really kind of snarky I guess sassy, humor from a girl which was not yet a thing, and I think that made it stood out because I wasn't following what they might teach you in school. I was going, I think of myself as sort of an innovator, contrarian and I wrote it from passion versus oh, this is what's popular in literature right now. So it was something that was in me that I needed to get out of me and I wrote it for those reasons, versus because I studied writing in college or something like that.
19:48
And so it was really a stream of consciousness and outrageous humor Maybe that would be what I would call it outrageous humor. So, and that wasn't yet a thing, really wasn't yet a thing. Really the way that there's more of that now, because another book that I did and I'm going to bounce around because this one was a couple books after my novel was a book called how to be happy, damn it. That I told my agent I wanted to do back in the 90s and my agent thought I was, I'll say it, nuts, because it was a self-help book, a psychology book, with the word damn it in the title how to be happy, damn it. And it also was going to have design in it with like pop art type visuals and stuff. And she said to me Karen, you're not a psychologist and design and damn it in the title.
20:44
And I was like I can see this whole book. So we parted ways nicely because I did like her and I didn't blame her for not being able to see it. It was a daring book.
20:53
And.
20:54
I art directed the whole book from beginning to end. I brought in somebody who understood Photoshop and InDesign because back then we didn't have the software yet for people like me who didn't know the tech. So but then I creative directed from my creative director background. The whole book had to be happy damn it from beginning to end. And then I sent it out that way because I understood the publishers might not get it either and I thought I will. I thought to myself people are basically fearful and lazy as their default modes and if you just send them the typed up proposal, I envision pictures or it will be versus. This is what the book looks like.
21:38
I took the fear out and I took the laziness out. We did the whole entire book from beginning to end and then when it plopped down on their desk they could see it. We took out some of the fear and laziness and then we actually had a little bit of a bidding war for it and when that book came out it became a huge bestseller. It was Urban Outfitters bestselling book for a couple of years. That was when the table with the stylized books on it was very small. It wasn't yet a thing and I do believe I can confidently say that it's a weird title to say that I want to have. But I'm the first personal development author to put a curse word in my book title. But now that is so commonplace and the word dammit looks mild compared to I can't even say some of the words of book titles now. But back then it was like blasphemy to have dammit in a psychology book title.
22:37
But I wrote always from passion and something that was so in me and I wrote that book because I thought I used to love to read psychology books. Like I am a geek, I'm a kind of a research geek and I would read these books and then I'd love them and I'd want to give them to a friend and I thought, oh my gosh, there should be self-help books that you could give to a friend as a gift and they're not going to punch you because it's like here. You need this self-help book or self-help books for people that wouldn't be caught dead reading self-help books, because I'd be embarrassed reading them. So that's why I wanted to make it designy with humor, so you could probably leave it out, instead of hide it, that I'm reading a self-help book.
23:24
And that was why I wrote how to Be Happy. Damn it For people like like, even like myself, who was embarrassed to admit I was reading self-help books back in the nineties.
23:38
Yeah, there's still a lot of people who are uncomfortable depending on the color of the cover, not just the title. So there's so much to the psychology of what's going to feel okay for some of us to walk around or sit on the tube or the subway with what kind of book? It sounds like you, obviously from your advertising background, that you had a this clear sense of who was the person you were doing this for right.
24:10
Yeah, I would think about the I guess what you call the target audience, and also that it was needed, like why aren't there? I saw that, like it's interesting that that doesn't exist. And you know, eminem the singer, obviously found the book somehow or other on his own, but he liked the cover so much that my book how to Be Happy Damn it wound up in an Eminem video, like the camera pans. No way and you see him reading the book how to Be Happy. Damn it.
24:41
Oh, that's really funny. Congratulations, that's a great advertising.
24:45
Yeah right.
24:47
Yeah, I found it really interesting to hear you describe the process of having this vision for different kinds of books, parting with your agent and doing it yourself, and I would love we sold it to a publishing house, though you did, but you designed, I designed it myself, you created the product and then you brought it to the publishing house, and that's a step or two or three further than most authors would ever dare. Again, I was going to say what, what powered you or inspired you to to go in that direction.
25:25
Well, my identity was always that I was a designer and a writer. So, and I was a creative director. I actually sold six books in one year because of that agent. That agent, after I told her about how to be happy, damn it. She said what else you got? You know? I presented another book with a crazy title Even God is Single, so Stop Giving Me a Hard Time, okay. And I also envisioned it and had the whole design in my head.
25:59
And she's like I don't see this one either. What else you got? And then I pitched her another one, which I will tell you, because I wound up selling all. She said no to six books in a row. What else you got? What else? I left that part out of the story, but now I'm even remembering myself. The other one was wait till you hear this. This was back in the nineties. Also, the clitorist spelled on purpose wrong like tourism. The clitoris a guide to one of the hottest spots on earth for people with the clitoris or people who love people with one. And it was a woman's sexuality book. Yeah, and.
26:38
I brought in an illustrator. I used to love design so much I became an accidental book packager. So there were six different books that I showed my agent, one after the other, and she kept going. What?
26:52
else you got. What else you got, what else you got.
26:54
I'm like you know, at a certain point I was like you know what I really do believe in these pretty outrageous books, but I saw the gap in the marketplace for all of them. They even got a single book let's celebrate being single. I was single and, ironically, I got engaged right after I sold that book, which is another story. But I thought there should be books out there celebrating singlehood, and there weren't. And then I thought look at the tourists. There should be a book out there allowing women to celebrate their sexuality, because this wasn't as common as it is now. You know, with humor.
27:36
So I kept thinking there should be, there should be, there should. Each of the books were inspired by a. There should be. I want, I want to read a book. I have to write a book because I don't have a book, you know, so I wrote it from. I want to wake up sleepy minds and hearts. And also because, when I quit my job in advertising, I thought I did think this because, remember, I was a philosophy minor and that was always a big part of my identity psychology, philosophy, and and I thought I don't want to write ads that convince people to switch to a new toothpaste. I want to write books that inspire people to think in new ways. And that was behind I would. Every single freaking book I did, Even the one that we're here to talk about today, was because of that.
28:35
Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's funny because when I first was contacted to interview you, I realized I checked out the names of your books and I thought if Karen's sold that many books, I must know about one of them. And indeed I actually own one of your books. It was the one about the dog training. Actually, I'm so sorry because I meant to take it out. It's on my bookshelf in the bedroom.
29:01
That one was another one.
29:03
And you know what? I only bought it a couple of years ago. It amused me a great deal because I just had a puppy. Bought it a couple of years ago. It amused me a great deal because I just had a puppy. I just needed to see where you took this, because I was in the middle of training my dog, and so the idea of training a man I always just felt too fun to pass.
29:19
Nowadays everybody's so politically correct. That one I'm almost nervous to say, but it's called how to Make your man Behave in 21 Days or Less, Using the Secrets of Professional Dog Trainers.
29:31
It's a great title. It's just a little bit long so for me it didn't roll off the tongue because I didn't remember.
29:38
Yes, yes, yes, that one book alone sold about half a million copies and in many different countries, in countries that you wouldn't think they would find that funny, but it's a loving book. People used to ask me what does your boyfriend think of the book? And then I would say, oh my gosh, my boyfriend thinks it's very funny, but then again, I've taught him to laugh on command. But I actually my boyfriend at the time was a comedy writer, so he did think the book was very funny and it was funny, and I love dogs and I love that, and it's not even an angry book if you read it.
30:18
Oh, it's not. It's just really fun. It's very, very sweet, Absolutely. There's one question, but we'll talk about your book today, the new book that's coming out in a couple of weeks. But I wanted to ask you you have such a distinctive tone of voice in your writing. How did it come to you? How did you hone in on this voice?
30:41
That's really I don't fully know. I mean maybe a diet of mad magazines.
30:47
I don't know what it is.
30:48
But I've always seen the world sort of funny, even when I wrote for myself my private audience of one in my journals, because I save all my journals and I was a big journal writer and I have a big, I have a couple boxes for my journals and when I look back I'm like, oh, it's still my voice. And I recently was telling somebody a story about how I got together with my, a friend of mine who I went to high school with, who I hadn't seen in person in a long time, and I was visiting my mom and she. We met at a diner after I left my mom and she brought with her this little book that I had made for her, a pretend book like that I taped and glued together when we graduated high school. My best friend, susie and who now goes by Susan, but she lets me still call her Susie because I think of her as Susie and she showed it to me and it was all the memories of like high school together and I'd given her an advanced copy of the book Year to Die for Life. And she said, karen, I brought this to show you.
31:51
You gave this pretend book to me back in high school and I just read your new book. They're kind of the same voice. You know you have the same humor from back in high school. There's something the same there and even though, like on the back of the book as a joke where you're supposed to have the price, like on the back of the pretend book that I made my friend Susie as a high school graduation gift, I wrote down $2 million or something. I've always just thought humorously, the voice in my head, the narrator of my conscious and subconscious mind, is a humorous narrator and they won't know why. So I don't know what that is, but I think like that.
32:33
It's wonderful to hear that, to hear that there's such a consistency, a thread in your own voice. It's something that I find very warm, very engaging, very easy to read. I'm sure is something that you've heard from some of your readers.
32:48
Easy to read. I'm sure is something that you've heard from some of your readers. I think one of my skills is I can read really boring, dense, complicated things and rewrite them with humor and make it seem simple.
33:02
And.
33:03
I used to process things with the humor I still remember. Remember I said I wrote for myself I would do things around the home, like once my dad, my dad was trying to diet but he kept sneaking little cookies and I wrote a poem to him and it was it's short, I remember it. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of everything makes you fat and you know I would just write things like that were just silly and funny and just write greeting cards for birthdays and like.
33:41
I just always, it was you.
33:44
Yeah, you were born to do this.
33:47
I was born to, like Joe DeMar. I was born to do this. I was born to help people find humor in life's heaviness. I even remember and I don't remember the whole thing, thank God for you but I remember. I wrote, I was trying to study for a chemistry exam and I wrote, I guess to procrastinate. This is in high school and for some reason I remember. I have a weird memory for wording and.
34:13
I wrote a molecular mass and molar to sure have a way of making you blue. But then I wrote this and I remember this, although my notes I don't know like boarded B-O-H-R, an A semester final must be recorded and I just don't know why I still remember that because that is from high school. But I would write about things that were upsetting me and I'd write it with humor and I would just write that for my audience of one self in general.
34:44
Sure, it sounds like you were reprocessing, reframing, assessing.
34:48
It sounds like you were reprocessing, reframing, assessing.
34:54
Yes, and I don't know why. I remember that. Like it's just weird. It's very rhythmic, it sounds almost melodic as if it were a song, I guess.
35:00
Oh my gosh, a song or a poem, but I guess that you've introduced, let's say, the theme which ties into your new book to bring some levity to life's heaviness. So you've written a new book which touches heavily on death, and, first of all, it's really wonderful to be talking about the subject. Yes, because I have wanted for a while to have a conversation with someone about this. I've been through my fair share of grief, as I know you have and everyone will go through if you haven't already and it's striking to me the levels to which we avoid talking about the finitude of our life. And so first I'd love for you to tell us what inspired you to write this particular book.
35:53
Well, I've been wanting to write this book for a while actually. Well, actually I say there's two reasons why I wrote this book, and one is sort of like more quirky funny and one is more sad. So I'll start with the quirky funny and then I'll tell you the sad. So the quirky funny is that I say I didn't write this book because I had a near death experience. I wrote the book because I had a near life experience.
36:21
And if you've never heard, if your listeners never heard of the expression near life experience is because I made it up, but they will know what it is when I describe it and they might unfortunately be wrestling with having near life experiences now. So a near life experience is when you're on your phone so much that you're not fully present. You're scrolling, you're swiping and so you're near life, but you're not in life, you're life adjacent, or you're out to dinner with a loved one and while they're talking, you're not fully present, You're worrying about something in the future or regretting something from the past, and again you're not in your life.
37:05
You're near life.
37:06
And then the third kind of near life experience is when you keep saying someday I will, oh, I'll do that later, and you put off doing these things now, and so again, you're near your life, you're not in your life. That also creates near life experiences where you don't quite do what you know you want to do. And so that's the first reason I wrote the book was I realized I was having far too many near-life experiences. But the way I woke up and realized I was having near-life experiences is when my dad died and that's the sad part of the reason why I wrote the book and that's the sad part of the reason why I wrote the book and after he passed away I kept thinking a lot about death. I gave his eulogy and that was really interesting to me to think about how a life can just be summed up like that.
38:03
It got me wondering what I would want my eulogy to be and also it made me especially sad because I was in so much work mode. I was in what they call beast mode and on the outside my life looked like I was productive and doing everything. But I kept swatting away the idea of starting a family and I thought when my dad died how sad it was that he would never get to meet whatever child I would have, that he died before I became a mom and he never got to see me as a mom. And I realized that that was a someday. I kept thinking someday, someday. And so I have my dad's death to thank for my son's birth and in a general clean sweeping of my priorities after he died and wanting to live not in beast mode anymore but in what I call best mode. I write about that in the book and there's a difference.
39:06
You know which I can go into.
39:07
So I'll pause here and say that I found it really touching to to read this and, in particular, the fact that it inspired you to try and write your own eulogy. And it's strange for me to share this, because I've lost both my parents. My mom passed away 11 years ago. My father passed a little bit more recently, in 2018. And I actually yeah, he was 93. So he had a really good life, though it was really hard, of course, but I did the same thing. I wrote my own eulogy after. That's interesting. It's interesting.
39:49
So I have, like you, a very strong journaling practice.
39:52
I journal every day, and I guess that within the days after the funeral, I needed to reflect on what I wanted my life to look like, and so I think that, even though I don't believe I did it exactly the same way that you invite people to do it in the book. I had this exploration of thinking to myself what do I want people to say about me once I'm gone? And, just as you explain in the book, there I felt and saw some dissonance, some disconnect with not all, but some areas of my life that I wanted to see develop differently, and it was a turning point, without a doubt, as often it is when we lose someone very dear to us or there's a big life change. Suddenly, there's an opportunity to pivot and do things differently. And it's when we are faced with this, with the loss and possibility of our own passing, that we start to think about doing things differently. And I was in awe of the fact that you decided to tackle this, offering your readers the opportunity to take that pivot without having the loss.
41:06
Yes. Why wait for somebody to die? Why wait for yourself to have a health scare?
41:12
Absolutely, please. I guess I had the diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis, which also had pivoted me, a few years before, but why wait for that?
41:23
I realized this even more after writing the book. It's funny you go into writing a book and you think you know what it's going to be about, but sometimes it takes writing it out. I sometimes think of like writing, as you not only write what you know, but you write what you didn't know, that you knew. Like you have to be like writing and in kind of like that alpha state or I don't know what you would call it. So I did know that a meaningful life is one with meaningful relationships. But after writing the book it became so clear to me that a lot of things but one of them is how important when you're on your deathbed you're going to be really thinking about meaningful relationships and meaningful experiences. And you know being of service, living with purpose and giving back.
42:12
And I thought I am doing too much work, I don't have enough balance and I'm not spending enough time with the people that I love, and even though I had quit my job in advertising to have some of that, it's funny how that followed me even to what I was doing, because I was doing so many books and so many you know projects that it snuck into my life there as well.
42:36
I guess this would be a good time to mention what I do think, why we're here, what the purpose of life is just a light little topic like that. Well, I love philosophy and one of my favorite philosophers is Aristotle, and he actually also inspired the book. And Aristotle said that you don't know if you've lived a good life until you're on your deathbed, and then you look back. But he also said that you should begin every project with the ends in mind, everything from a tiny project like a bake sale to a huge project like that gigantic project called your life. Yeah, and you should think about well, how do I want to feel on my deathbed? And and then reverse, engineer it and make sure that you're living that way now to aim yourself at the end goal.
43:33
Yeah, in every project with the ends in mind, and he said that everybody on this planet has the same end goal for life, no matter where you're from Timbuktu, toronto, toledo, timbuktu, toronto, toledo and that end goal is to learn lessons that help you to grow into your best possible self, and he loosely called it the education of your soul. Someone doesn't resonate with the word soul, you can say core, self, but it's to grow who you are. And he said that too many people don't make that the end goal for their life. They make the end goal to become the wealthiest person on the planet, to become the sexiest girl or the thinnest girl whatever something like that on the planet, or to have the most YouTube followers, podcasts, downloads, but if you make these superficial goals your end goal for life, when you get to the end of your life, you're going to be very disappointed because you're going to realize you chased the wrong rabbits, that it's really about the education of your soul, not your ego, not your body, not status, fame, wealth, wallets, all of those things.
44:46
It's. Who are you? Who did you become at the end of your life?
44:50
And that sort of is a big focus of the book and in fact, when I give people a simple tool to write their eulogy because I realized that everybody's going to want to sit down and write their eulogy I created a template like a Mad Libs type template, where you fill in the blanks to write your eulogy, and a lot of those blanks have to do with core values, because that's about who do you need to become to get everything you want in your life.
45:21
What are the core values you're embracing? Are you aware of your core values? And even if you are, are you actually embracing them? Or are you going thinking to yourself oh yes, I value kindness, but then you're kind of being a jerk to people you know. So you have to live intentionally embracing your core values, and I help people to do that in the book, and I explain that more as sort of like a rough summary of the book.
45:45
Sure, I actually really appreciate that you touch on that, because I had a couple of questions on this in particular. So, reverse engineering, because I did the eulogy and there was a death in my family as well. I do feel that it certainly has spoken to what was important to me, and I know that you have read some Buddhist books, including the Tibetan book of living and dying. You are also, if I'm correct, a yoga teacher, so you've trained in yoga and meditation, as I am as well, as I'm also a mindfulness teacher, and it's interesting that there are those common threads that have helped bring me closer to my own values. I actually teach a lot of values-related workshops in a different style.
46:31
I'm very passionate about that and I really appreciated you making that connection to the imagining yourself on your deathbed in whatever way feels comfortable to your mind, your visualization in a way that's not going to make you panic, right. So imagine that it's at a time where you've lived a really great life and you project positively into the future. And then this idea of traveling back and say, how am I making the choices? Am I following my inner value compass, and that spoke to me so, so much. It's true that we can be aware of our values and then not be aligned with them, and so I guess that when you talk about intentionality, this speaks to the how do I say this? To the commitment to come back to thinking about them, right To make this a practice, and I think that this probably ties in with some of the meditations that you invite people to revisit in the book. Would you speak to this a little bit?
47:38
So I do have a death mindfulness meditation that I do in the morning and I switch it up. There's actually a choice of eight different ways to start your morning fully embracing the gratitude that you have a morning to start that, a lot of us just wake up, hit the ground running, and I want people to wake up mindful of the awareness that you have opened your eyes to a new day, of the awareness that you have opened your eyes to a new day. And so some of the methods that I do is I do it when I'm first in bed. I think about while I'm still there, because it's easier that way, when you're still a little groggy, to become aware of, like feeling the texture of the sheets around you, where the light is. So you wake up slowly, versus like just jumping out of bed and then aware of whatever thoughts enter your mind and then thinking about and I have some ideas for ways to do this in the book, but I'll just loosely sum this up Something that you're looking forward to in that particular day, or letting your mind let ideas surface about something that what do you need to know that you don't want to know, is there, like something that you need to work on, like, oh I really should call that friend or I should do this, like letting those ideas surface before you just jump out of bed in the morning and then, when you put your feet on the ground, make that a mindful practice and that's where you think to yourself, you know, thank you for this new day as you plant your feet on the ground and just being really aware of that.
49:28
And then there's different ways that I have people becoming aware of different things that they choose throughout the day, the clothes that they wear, whether you're in the shower. I have people do a meditation where you imagine the water is washing away your fears, your worries, your regrets and just as the water goes down and you suds yourself off, picture those going down the drain and tell yourself that when you step out of the shower, that you're leaving that behind. And there's eight different ones altogether, but I don't expect anybody. I mean, I don't do all eight, I'm just giving people a choice.
50:06
And then, we can switch them up each morning to pick different ones that they would use, and one of them is writing your to-die list.
50:17
The copywriter in. You did a great job with the to-die list. I won't forget that. How did you first come across the idea of putting together a to-die list?
50:28
Well, because I realized that to-do lists have a very large, fatal flaw. You could check off everything on your to-do list and get to the end of your life and realize you wasted your life, Because a to-do list is about productivity. But productivity and busyness, those are not what we're here for. That's not the end goal of life. The end goal of life is not to become like the busiest, most productive person on the planet. It's to grow into your best possible self, and so you're not going to be writing down things daily that remind you intentionally to embrace core values or to do things like.
51:09
A to-do list is about creating your day and a to-die list is about designing your life. And after you write your eulogy, you want to figure out okay, look at current you and then look at aspirational eulogy you. And there should be a little bit of a gap there, Because you write your eulogy not for who you are today if you you know if today were your last day, but who you are in an aspirational future from now. And so you look at that aspirational eulogy you and you think what bridge habits do I need to take to become aspirational eulogy me? And then the answer is what goes on your to die list. These are more meaningful attributes with habits, and the template for writing the to die list is I am and so I do, and I created this for a bunch of reasons. One of them is my main background, Most of my books that I've written. It has to do with behavioral change and there's something called identity-based habits.
52:19
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. It was one of the things that tickled me the most that I read about.
52:25
Yeah, I do this all the time. It's hard not to now Once you get into it. You like want to. You're like oh, what's my to die list today?
52:32
But yes. So tell us about the identity-based habits.
52:35
Okay, so all right, I'll tell it this way. Frank Sinatra. He sang Doobie Doobie Doo and he was a great crooner in his days, but he's a backwards thinking personal development author, because instead of do be, do be, it should be, be, do, be, do. Who you think you are determines what you do. Your identity creates your destiny. Your identity is the puppet master of your habits. Identity is the puppet master of your habits. So right now, we are being led by our identity, even on a subconscious basis.
53:21
Right now, you might be walking around thinking I am sloppy, and then you wind up doing the sloppy habits, or I am organized, and so you do organized habits. Or I suck, and so you do sucky habits. Or I am brave, and then you're braver. So there's certain things that you're doing without knowing you're doing, and some of them could be negative, limiting beliefs about yourself. What I want people to do is to mindfully think about who they want to be and write that down first.
53:53
And there was a study that they did with voters. They were trying to get more people to show up to vote. So they had two groups of people In one group. They gave like clever little tag lines to try to get them to vote and the other group. They worked on their identity, convincing them that they are a voter. You are a voter, and the people that thought of themselves as voter were something like three times as more likely to show up at the polls something very large like that.
54:21
I even think that we do this without knowing it. For example, if you haven't gone to the gym in a while, it's hard to get yourself to go to the gym because you're thinking I'm the type of person that doesn't go to the gym or whatever it is. But once you start to get into the habit of going to the gym, it's easier to go to the gym because you've adopted the identity of a gym goer, and so that's why it's easier once you start. You know it's like that with a lot of habits like that. So what I have people do is you can write your to dial us and your identity based statements in a couple of ways.
54:54
You can look at your eulogy and think, okay, who do I need to become in order to get everything I want in my eulogy? Or you can look at your present life and think who do I need to become to write that novel of that something? Or who do I need to become to stop fighting with my partner? Or who do I need to become to write that novel of that something? Or who do I need to become to stop fighting with my partner? Or who do I need to become to feel closer to my son, or who do I need to become? But it always begins with that question, and then you journal the core values that are needed and then the actions with them. And what happens is when you write down the core value with it and that's a core value that you know you truly value you're more likely to do the habit, because if you don't, it creates cognitive dissonance. So I'll give an example.
55:40
Yes, I'm familiar with it, but you can explain it for us.
55:44
Here's one from a couple of months ago. My friend Danielle was having a birthday. One from a couple of months ago. My friend Danielle was having a birthday and she lives in Connecticut and I live here in New York and I don't drive a car anymore. My driver's license expired. I never got it renewed.
55:58
Like an episode of Sex and the City, where they all go to LA. None of them drive a car. That's me. And so when she sent me a birthday invitation to celebrate her birthday in Connecticut, my first thought was like oh God, I don't know how to get to Connecticut, I don't drive. And then I thought, okay, meaningful relationships matter. Let me write an I am and so I do statement. So I wrote down I am a loving person and so I find a way to get myself to Connecticut, which motivates me much more than just thinking I have to figure out how to get to connect. No, I'm a loving person, which of course I want to be, I will find a way to get myself to Connecticut and creates cognitive dissonance. If you don't find a way to get to Connecticut, yet you value being loving. Who am? I Wait a minute. I'm a loving person, of course. Of course I'm going to find a way to get to Connecticut.
56:52
Absolutely.
56:54
Anytime you attach a core value to an I am and so I do statement and you really value being that core value. It motivates you, like an accountability buddy, to be more likely to do that thing. Otherwise, you feel a disconnect that makes you feel uncomfortable.
57:14
Yeah, I was thinking also, our brains are there to solve the problems that we come across in our lives and and I think that being aware of the cognitive dissonance triggers the brain in solution mode right, because you are in this mode and your brain realizes that we need to find a way to fix this dissonance as you've described it, you then go into problem solving mode, which it percolates at the back of our heads. Right, it doesn't even need to be something you solve in the moment, but, knowing what you care about and how you want to show up, our loving, complicated brain machines are going to solve the problem for us Also, I hope.
57:57
You're right, it creates an importance to it that makes you try a little harder to come up with a solution. You're right, because it did. I was like, okay, I'm going to find a way to get there because I am a loving person. And then there was another one that I did After my son was born. I had gained a lot of weight and I kept calling it my pregnancy weight.
58:21
But, at that point my son was like two or three years old and I kept calling it my pregnancy weight and I had to be honest with myself and say this is my I eat too much crappy food weight. And I was on the phone with my publishing house and we were talking. They had sent me pages for a book that I had created and it had photos and illustrations and I could see some of the color leaking through the other side of the paper. So I was saying to the publishing house we need to get a thicker, toothier paper. I was like talking to them and then this like awareness showed up and I thought I am a very discerning person. And then I thought, oh, wait a minute.
59:05
I value discerning, I value the core value of discerning, and yet I'm not eating like a discerning person. I'm shoveling in cheddar cheese, goldfish and macaroni and cheese pizza. And I thought that I value being discerning and so I use that for the I am and so I do statement. I am a discerning person and so I eat healthy foods, and so then I would look at the pizza and I would think that's not the food of a discerning person, or?
59:37
that's not like and believe it or not, this one core value embracing discerning helped me to lose 20 pounds in three months. I kept using that over and over and over, and there's a ripple effect too that, after embracing the word discerning so intentionally, so mindfully, it helped me not to spend as much money. Like I'm a discerning person, why am I wasting my money on this?
01:00:02
I'm a discerning person, I became more aware of my time. So once you own a core value so fully, it has a ripple effect and starts to kind of help you in other areas of your life as well.
01:00:15
That's beautiful. I loved the word discernment. I had made a note of that as well. It felt to me as if it was almost a keyword actually for the book and for what you went through in in the journey since the passing of your father, since the eulogy and and with all of what you were doing it's. When I read this part it felt like this is where you needed to come to.
01:00:43
That's, that's very astute of you. Yes, it's. That's how it woke me up, where I was wasting time and trying to get my priorities back in order, and in fact, I have a whole chapter in the book about doing a life audit and finding out where all the crap and clutter of your life is. And discerning is one of my top seven core values, which I offer to people because I have. I want people to figure out what their core values are, but I looked at the top regrets of the dying and I reverse engineered them.
01:01:20
And that's how you did it. Okay, because I was wondering how you came down with those seven.
01:01:24
Those seven. I reverse engineered the top regrets of the dying. But I look at those regrets from the lens of my own life too. I thought how do I make sure I don't wind up with those seven regrets? What do I need to do? And I realized that there were seven core values that if somebody gets writer's block or just thought block and they're like I don't know what my top core values are, you can grab these seven and they will help you. And I could tell you and your listeners.
01:01:53
Yes, of course I don't have them in front of me. I remember you listed them from A to G. Yes, and I know that G was gratitude, very good, and I know discernment was in it, yeah, no, you're going to have to read them to me.
01:02:07
I don't remember them Okay, it's okay, I have them memorized because I use them all the time. Of course, the first one, a, is authentic and let me tell you that one is extremely important to live it, to die for life, because you want to make sure it's your life, that you're not living because of society's expectations or your parents' expectations. You know, if I just stayed in advertising because my parents were like stay in advertising, you know, then I wouldn't have had as much of a authentic life. To die for life. You know, b is brave and that one is really big because you have to get out of your comfort zone, you have to take the bold risks. Again, if I backwards, think at me saying to my agent I'm writing those books, I'm doing that. It's a, b. If I look at all of the great moments, the turning point moments, the game changers, I have a lot of B for brave to thank. C is curious of be for brave to think. C is curious and that one's really important because Aristotle said that we're here to learn lessons that help us to grow into our highest potential selves, and so you need to be curious to go. Why does this keep happening to me? You know, what could I do differently. Why is this pattern here? Because we repeat what we don't repair and you have to break free from these patterns and become aware of your limiting beliefs and get curious about how and why you have them and to break them. And also, curiosity creates awe and wonder and that improves your day. D is discerning, and that's how you can look at your life and see where the crap and clutter is, because everybody's going, I'm too busy, I didn't have time to do that, which is sort of like the adult version of the dog ate my homework, you know. But if you start to get discerning about your time, you can get rid of some of the crap and clutter and realize what your true priorities are. And that discernment helps you to write your to diedie list each day, not just the to-do list, but the discernment of knowing what to make sure you find time for in your day.
01:04:14
E is empathic love, and I put the E on it, quite frankly, because I needed alphabetical order, because I realized I had them in alphabetical order by coincidence, and then I thought you know what I wanted love there. But I thought you know empath wanted love there, but I thought you know empathic love might even be the truer form of love that I want to write about anyway, because sometimes when people hear love they might mistake it for romantic love, and I want it to be an all-encompassing love, and I thought the E for empathic was a reminder to be an active listener, to really try to understand someone, not just make it a chemistry of love, you know. And then F is fun, and, yes, that's a core value, because one of the top regrets of the dying are I wish I hadn't worked so hard, which is where I was when my dad died. I was working very hard.
01:05:06
Or I wish I had allowed myself to have more joy. They kept postponing joy. Oh, you know, I'll have time for that later. Someday I'll do that fun thing, someday I'll go on a vacation. So F is for fun and you have to put fun on your to-die list to make sure that you're having fun in your day. And then FT is gratitude, and that helps you to get through some of the more stressful times or challenging times, to remind yourself what you have to be grateful for, while even if you're trying to get somewhere else to be grateful for what you have now the invisible blessings in your life.
01:05:47
That's beautiful. I was going to reflect back to you that the empathic love you described sounds and I don't know whether you're familiar with loving, kindness or metta, the Buddhist meditation, empathic love, as you describe it sounds like metta actually. It's that unconditional friendliness. It's my favorite meditation, it's the core of what I teach. So I'm a big nerd of mindfulness and meta. I really appreciate that you described that, because it's almost an attitude, it's a practice, it's a way of being, and I was going to ask you as well. When you said curious, I was thinking curious for me is almost also a lens that comes in with the point of view of mindfulness, of exploring presence. I often compare a mindful state as being like a scientist of your own experience. You know, if you came at your experience of saying, oh, what am I feeling right now, as soon as you shift into curiosity, you're no longer in fear. You may not be in sadness as soon as we become curious, because I've found out we can't be in two states at once, technically, says Tara.
01:07:01
Barrett, I absolutely love that. I agree with that, because sometimes if you're depressed, it's because you're holding on to a negative belief and if you think to yourself well, what else could this mean?
01:07:12
what is?
01:07:12
another interpretation for this, so you can loosen your grip on the negative hold of the negative interpretation.
01:07:20
So yes, that's, and also I think curiosity, as you said, brings all, because I think that what I saw in a lot of what you write in the book, what I think you're trying to inspire us to practice and to get for ourselves, is moments of awe and joy and connection throughout the day, every day. But that comes from all sensations and moments of embodied experience. The curious lens really is, I would say, is a really big pillar to get there.
01:07:54
And in general mortality awareness. I think awakens that more in you, because when you realize that we're here, then we're not not you just wake up to trying to make the here part as beautiful and meaningful as possible. It kind of awakens in you what a miracle this whole life is. You know and I just wrote an essay, even on substack, about how the enemy of life is in debt. The enemy of life is forgetting you're alive, and so to embrace each day with curiosity is like what is going to happen today?
01:08:42
Have that awe. Each day, every day is new. It's not like Groundhog Day. It's not like oh, here we not like. Oh, here we go, wake up, do the work, make the coffee. No, is it. Every day is a completely new day, that you know. It's like a restart button. Yeah, what are you going to do with today?
01:09:00
that makes me think of zen mind, beginner's mind, right. Oh, do it every day as if you'd never done it before, as if you're a child just opening up to yeah curiosity, the c for curiosity, can help you to do that yes, I'd love for you to tell us about how you decided to bring a jar and marbles in your life in order to connect yourself to your finitude and and to help you live life more fully.
01:09:28
Well, I guess I'm a visual person and.
01:09:31
I don't think we all are. The idea of death is so ungraspable and so existential. If you make it visual and solid it really can wake you up. So what I did was a couple of years ago it really can wake you up. So what I did was a couple of years ago I added up how many months I had left to live if I lived to 100. And I made it 100 because I promised my son I'd do everything possible to live to 100. He'd asked me to live to 200, but I bargained him down and he accepted my counteroffer. So I added up how many months I had left and I forgot the exact amount. I think it was like 473. It was under 500 because I bought in bulk 500 marbles and then I had to remove the marbles because I didn't even have 500 marbles. I'm like geez, I don't even have 500 marbles left, and that was also kind of sad. Removing the marbles before I put them in the jar. And then I bought an empty jar for right next to that jar.
01:10:35
And then I have this ritual On the first of every month I remove a marble from the jar and I do it over coffee and with my journal nearby. And I look at that little piece of marble and I think that was my month. This is a piece of my life. Like you hold it in your hands and you think the first time I did it I thought what did I do with last month? Where did that time go? And the first time I did it I couldn't even, like, really remember anything specifically. It was more vague. I thought, oh, I guess I did this and I guess I did that, but I thought I'm going to do better next month, you know. And I plunked it into the empty jar.
01:11:17
Like.
01:11:17
I could remember a few things, but it wasn't like, wow, that was quite a June or that was February, there, you know. So I looked at the marbles and I thought, okay, you're going to be my next month's marble. And I kind of looked at it and I thought I'm going to plan some things for next month, like it made me aware that.
01:11:38
I wanted to make because I knew I was going to have to do the ritual the first of the next month and I started to think of things for that marble. And I started to think of things for that marble and when the next month came about, I pulled out that marble and I knew I was oh yes, this was the month that I did X, y or Z. I looked at it and I plunked it into the jar. So now I have both jars in the window and one jar that was once empty is now filling up, which is also visually startling to see. But I don't look at it as sad because I'm like oh, I remember.
01:12:10
Oh, yeah, I remember that marble. Hi, there, I remember you. You're April, we did this together, you know, so it's not as morbid. And then the other thing that happens is I have them in my kitchen and when I walk into the kitchen and I remember I told my son I would lift to a hundred, I think, do I really need an extra scoop of ice cream? I plan to lift a hundred. I want to get all my marbles in. So it accidentally also helps me to try to eat better because I keep them in my kitchen.
01:12:42
That's really sweet. Thank you so much for sharing that, because, as I was hearing you, I was listening to you earlier today on a walk talking about this and it got me thinking, oh gosh, I wonder how many marbles would be in my jar. And then I thought where do I get jars, where do I get marbles? And I was already playing with the idea of okay, I like this. But it's when I hear you use the word ritual that it hits me even better, because, of course, at different times in our lives, I'm sure you've noticed, sometimes time slows down and sometimes time feels like it accelerates, and for me, this June, for example, feels like it disappeared. It was incredibly fast. Where did it go? And I like the idea of holding a month with intention. It feels like something that I would enjoy doing. So I don't know if it's going to inspire anyone else out there listening to us, but I certainly feel very inspired by the practice that you're bringing up.
01:13:39
Yeah, it's funny, this was just a single. Maybe it was more than a single, it was like three paragraphs in the book, but that was it. But because it's a practice I do, I decided to write it up for my sub stack. I was sub stack called the stand-up philosopher and I wrote it up as an essay, not knowing how it would land with people. And so many people underneath the essay were like I'm starting marble jar. I'm starting marble jar and people got really excited about it.
01:14:05
So I I do think, and once you start doing it you really look forward to it and really there's nothing quite like holding that marble and thinking this is a piece of my life. It really will wake you up into wanting to live, but to die for life like that you're really excited about.
01:14:27
Absolutely, but to die for life like that you're really excited about Absolutely. I'd love to find out if there's anything we didn't cover that you want to mention, because I could easily talk to you for an extra two hours, because there was a lot in the book that I felt was really compelling. We haven't talked yet about your side businesses, your other expertise, your coaching. We haven't talked about your social media presence and a lot of other things, but is there anything in particular tied to the book that you want to add so that we Well, we haven't talked about legacy.
01:14:57
I do feel like the purpose of your life is to find and do the purpose of your life and to figure out what your was here flag is that you want to put on the planet. You know, and it doesn't have to be large.
01:15:11
It could be what I call ripples, like little mini legacies, like and those are the core values, like oh, she was kind, she was a good listener, or even it could be a recipe that you pass down through the ages, that you creatively discovered and made your own, but there should be something where you're excited to have that be your legacy, and I help people figure out what their legacy is. I have something called a legacy lab that.
01:15:39
I help people and I have a couple of people in my legacy lab now. I help people one-on-one and I have a 78-year-old in my legacy lab and a have a 78 year old in my legacy lab and a 70 year old in my legacy lab. I've had an 82 year old. So you're never too old to rejigger your life is one of my beliefs. This book is at any age. It's never too late to create a life that you're excited about. And some people think that if they hear I wrote a book about death, that I'm an end of life doula but I sort of envision myself as a middle of life doula or beginning of life doula that there's still runway left and even a way to have closure with things in the past. If there's something still that's troubling you, I have closure class that I help people to make peace with that and then that can free them up to enjoy their life more. If something is stuck in you that's keeping you feeling stuck in your daily life, I help you to get peace around that.
01:16:45
That sounds wonderful. I like how you describe yourself as a middle of life doula, because I actually I was at TED in Vancouver a couple of years ago and I saw an amazing death doula called Alua Arthur. I actually highly recommend people watch her talk, and it's terrible because I remember two things. First, she wore a wonderful orange dress. She looked amazing. And second, she said none of her any of the people she supported has ever regretted eating the cake, so her takeaway was also eat the cake. It's like good to know. I'd love to ask you a couple of quick questions before we close, and thank you for bringing up the creating ripples, because this was another part of the book that felt very inspiring, I would say. So one of my favorite questions is what is your favorite word? But let me color the question by saying it not just a word that you like, the sound of a word that you could imagine tattooing on yourself or living with for a while.
01:17:48
Oh well, it's funny. I do have a tattoo, but it's my son's name, ari.
01:17:57
Oh, Ari, Well, and I know that it was inspired by Aristotle right?
01:17:59
Yes, but I, this is just, I just wrote this recently. You know how sometimes I said sometimes you don't know what you're thinking until you write, and then you figure it out. So in the last essay I wrote on Substack was the point of life is not to live forever, it's to live vividly. And when, I thought of the word vividly. I kind of liked that word.
01:18:23
I just wrote that recently.
01:18:25
I don't know if you interviewed me the week before, three weeks or ten weeks from now, but because I just wrote that recently. I don't know if you had interviewed me the week before or three weeks or 10 weeks from now, but because I just wrote the word vividly when that spilled out of me, I'm like vividly, I like that. You know, it's like, vibrantly, but I don't know vividly, doesn't come up that much, I guess.
01:18:43
Sure, and there's a sense of being bold in the word vivid.
01:18:46
Yes, yeah, and aware and mindful. It's like a very, it's like mindfulness on steroids or something vividly Like. I don't know what it is, but there's something that sounds great, vividly, I want to live vividly. So I just wrote that word recently and I kind of thought I want to use that word more.
01:19:06
Wonderful. What does connection mean to you?
01:19:11
That has to do with everything meaningful relationships, listening, active listening, feeling like you understand and are understood, and I think that's a huge part of living. A meaningful life is having deep, intimate connections, and it could even be beyond people. It could just be even with yourself. I think that we need more alone time to contemplate and having an inner connection with knowing who we are living authentically, and so I think connection is a beautiful word that could be up there with vividly.
01:19:52
What song best represents you?
01:19:57
Alanis Morissette about you live, you learn. You know that song. I can't sing.
01:20:06
I probably do, and I can't remember.
01:20:07
You know that song I Can't Sing, I probably do and I can't remember. Ah, so that one. And then, oh God, the other day there was a song that came up and I was. It's so weird how sometimes a song can just get you the song Brave by Sarah. What's her name? Oh, I forgot her name, but it's Brave.
01:20:30
Oh my gosh, I love that song. Oh, sarah Berialis I can't, I forgot her name, but it's Brave. Oh my gosh, I love that song. Oh, sarah Baraylis I can't say her last name, because it looks like it's. French, so I want to say Sarah Baray, but I know that's not how she says it, sorry. Oh, that's great. Yes, I know that song. I love that song too.
01:20:43
And I love anything from Regina Spector. Her voice is just so beautiful and so emotional and poignant and everything like that.
01:21:00
Oh, that sounds gorgeous. What's?
01:21:00
a secret superpower that you have and I see secret aka. You haven't told us about that power yet. Secret superpower I do think I'm pretty intuitive about people. I think I'm pretty intuitive, so I think, the ability to listen between words and notice things. I'm a noticer.
01:21:21
I'm a good noticer of things, that's it Sounds like a really great superpower, imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself, something I know you practice. What do you think is the?
01:21:36
most important advice that future you needs to give to present time. You Well, now you have me thinking eat the cake, but I would say, go on more adventures with my son. You know, adventures, just it doesn't even have to be a huge vacation Recently. I've just been thinking even just like we went to a Japanese supermarket the other day and he's finding like these really cool looking vegetables and fruits and he showed me this banana that was like so big and he's like mom, can we find a place Like I want to just do adventures with my son.
01:22:17
That's wonderful. And that brings me to my last and favorite question what brings you happiness, happiness, Love family, friends, deep empathic love that's my favorite core value.
01:22:35
of all my core values. I feel like that's the most important thing to me out of all having deep, connected love with the people that I treasure.
01:22:52
Thank you so much, karen. I appreciate the time that you gave me today. It was such a pleasure to meet you. I wanted to say I really enjoyed getting to know you before meeting you. I'll put a couple of links in the show notes, alongside the list of your books, where people can find you online. The course is, of course, all about the new book. Thank you so much for the wonderful offering that you keep on bringing up.
01:23:16
I hope that this interview and this conversation will inspire people to grab the book, which is on sale July 22nd. I reckon that we all can benefit from a little bit of a reminder, a little bit more of a framework to remember the fact that this life is going to come to an end and to help us just enjoy ourselves to the most of our abilities. Actually, when I was walking this morning, I thought what I would really regret is not spending more of my summer going swimming. So, thanks to our conversation and your book, tomorrow morning I'll jump in the lake and I'll be thinking of you as I take a swim.
01:24:01
Attach it to a core value. I am blank, and so I swim.
01:24:07
I will. Figure out the core value that matters most to you and attach it to it and enjoy.
01:24:13
I also love swimming we have a part of the other reason I moved into this building to bring it full circle, from talking about what's behind, oh yeah, what's above us is an indoor swimming pool on the roof with the skylight. And I saw that and I thought, yes, I want to swim. And then I thought 80-year-old me will be glad that 60-something me picked a building with an indoor pool because 80-year-old me is going to love swimming. I'm going to be swimming up until 100-year-old me is going to love swimming. So, yes, I love swimming.
01:24:46
That's a beautiful commitment. I really appreciate this. Since I was a child, I was like I will have a swimming pool. I don't know when, I don't know how, but it's going to happen. So I deeply respect this. My future. You sees your current self. Thank you so much for everything, karen. Have a beautiful rest of the day and I hope that we'll have a chance to speak again at some point in the future.
01:25:09
Yes, I really enjoyed this talk. You were very astute too, you picked up on a lot of interesting things, and you got me thinking too. I'm so happy. Thank you so much.
01:25:25
So, friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice, and if you'd like to connect with me, you can find me at Anne V on threads on instagram Anne V Muhlethaler on linkedin if you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes or on instagram, at underscore. Out of the clouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website outoftheclouds.com. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the MettaView, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, conscious communication and the future of work. That's the MettaView with two Ts TheMettaView.com. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe and take care.