In this episode of Out of the Clouds, Anne Muhlethaler interviews Keris Masden (@fitterfood), in a first of what may be several interviews with the highly qualified naturopathic nutritional therapist, trainer and lecturer at the College of Naturopathic Medicine. Keris, with her partner Matt Whitmore, runs Fitter Food: a comprehensive platform offering good food, optimal health and tools to get fit and active, and leading long and happy lives.
Anne invites Keris to share first the why behind her path into personal training, and then into naturopathy. A very personal journey indeed, in large part motivated by a loved one's cancer diagnosis and a chance encounter with a naturopath at an event. Anne and Keris also share their personal experiences in and around burnout, which leads them to discuss the function of breath in gut health and the importance of finding ways to release the stress cycle in our modern (and currently pandemic) environment.
Keris then explains how she first got interested in the Paleo diet, how she thinks it can be adapted and how it supports a healthier lifestyle. Herself a keen cook (and a budding chocolatier), she started creating deliciously nutritious recipes for her clients, which then turned into her first book, 'The Paleo Primer'. She kindly credits her dog Hamish, a Bavarian mountain hound, as her best personal trainer and advisor, who is also a paleo convert.
The two finish as always discussing mindfulness tips, the importance of community, favourite books (The Salt Path by Raynor Winn), the best advice Keris received from a friend (watch your gut!) and what brings her happiness. A really wonderful, personal and powerful conversation. Enjoy!
***
Selected links from the episode:
You can find Keris at Fitterfood.com
Join the Fitter 365 program
Listen to the Fitter Food podcast
Keris also blogs regularly on Fitter Food about her own experiences with naturopathy, healthcare, etc. Very much worth a read.
The College of Naturopathic Medicine - (UK, US & Ireland)
Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski
Russell Brand's interview of James Nestor about breathing and his book, Breath
James Nestor's book, Breath
***
If you enjoyed this episode, click subscribe for more, and consider writing a review of the show on Apple Podcasts, it helps people find us and also helps to secure future guests. Thank you for listening!
For all notes and transcripts, please visit Out Of The Clouds on Simplecast.
Sign up for Anne's email newsletter for more from Out of the Clouds at https://annevmuhlethaler.com.
Follow Anne:
Twitter: @annvi
IG: @_outoftheclouds
Anne Muhlethaler:
Hi, hello, Bonjour and Namaste. This is Out Of The Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I am your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Today my guest is a qualified naturopathic nutritional therapist who currently lectures on nutrition at the College of Naturopathic Medicine in London. Keris Marsden is also a qualified personal trainer and a yoga instructor. She also is the author or co-author of two books on the paleo diet, called The Paleo Primer. And she is incredibly dedicated to helping others find a balanced, energized, and positive life.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Keris regularly blogs on fitterfood.com, her website, the one that she runs with her partner. In this episode, we go over Keris's personal journey and she shares very candidly about some of the bigger challenges that she encountered. It's an amazing conversation, I honestly think that I need to have another two or three follow up podcast episodes about so many of the subjects that I never got to touch in this interview. I hope you will enjoy this interview, there is so much knowledge and interesting facts and beautiful stories. Without any further comments, I give you my wonderful interview with Keris Marsden. Keris, thank you so much for being here and welcome to Out Of The Clouds. How are you today?
Keris Marsden:
I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks. How are things with you? Where are you today? Where are we finding you?
Keris Marsden:
So I'm in Tunbridge Wells, which is in Kent, so Southeast England. It's actually a beautiful day here as well. You know when you get the first few blue sky days where it's actually warm enough to take your coat off, so spring is in the air.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Ah, that's so nice. It's the same here in Geneva, it's blindingly sunny outside.
Keris Marsden:
Oh, lovely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I would love for you to start by telling me about your journey. How did you get to where you are today and maybe explain to our listeners what it is that you do?
Keris Marsden:
It always feels like a really long story. I don't know if you feel the same when people ask this question and you're like, "Gosh, it's been a few decades now. How do I put this into a paragraph?" My journey is kind of a personal one, I run a company now with my other half, which is a health and lifestyle company. It actually started off just as an exercise company. So we used to run group exercise classes in London, but again, as our own personal journeys evolved, and we realize the importance of nutrition and then eventually the whole lifestyle package, we've changed our company that we run together. And now we are completely online and we cover a lot on nutrition and also I've gone off to train in nutritional therapy, I've also gone and done yoga teacher training.
Keris Marsden:
Most of it is to balance some of the things that I was doing that I felt were very healthy originally, which was a lot of exercise, and that was kind of the stuff that I associated with health. Eventually you start to realize that there are other factors that you have to consider, and that's why we've changed our business really to reflect that. I suppose I started out really as a teenager, like most people, had some health issues. I decided to start running to try and lose weight when I was at university and had a really positive experience with it, in that it helped me lose weight, but it also helped me in terms of my mental health, so improved my mood, my confidence. And from there, I started to look at, could I eat a little bit better? Changed my diet as well. And that was kind of my own journey.
Keris Marsden:
And I discovered that I had this real passion for just finding out about anything that could make me feel better. And when you have that experience with whatever it might be, running or eating a better breakfast, my next thing I discovered about myself was I always wanted to share that, I wanted someone else to experience the same benefit that I had. So gradually over time, it's led me into transferring into a career in this and coaching other people, eventually writing things like books, because there's only so much time you can invest in this process. So that's why I've ended up writing books and running online programs and things as well, just to reach a bigger audience and help more people.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think that's very touching to hear that it's in the discovery of something that you found amazing, that you decided that you wanted to find means to share what you do. Now, you are a teacher at the London College of Naturopathy, if I'm correct?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah, that's correct.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So what took you to naturopathic nutritional therapy?
Keris Marsden:
This is where you realize, when you ask the question, "Dow did you get into all this?" You realize how much has really been happening that you haven't perhaps sometimes had time to process. It was actually my mom being diagnosed with breast cancer led me to really investigate naturopathic nutrition a little bit more. So I was, at that time, working as a personal trainer and I'd left my job, I had an office job. I had just set up a company with my partner, who I met in the gym. And again, very much focused on exercise, I thought exercise was the answer to everything, and of course, eat some vegetables as well, but that was about as far as it went in terms of the food stuff.
Keris Marsden:
I did a few courses where other trainers were starting to talk about things outside of exercise, so they were starting to talk about, for example, our environment and the impact it has on health and some of the issues in our environment like toxins and things like plastics affecting our hormone health. And this came onto my radar, I've always had a personal battle with hormones anyway, so I was very interested in this, but then my mom ringing me one day and saying, "Okay, I've got some news for you. I've been to the doctor, I've got lump in it. It's looking like it's probably breast cancer." That was a real catalyst for me to think, "Okay, it's hormone-related cancer. What can I do?" I needed to now go and find out some more information about this.
Keris Marsden:
And what was quite interesting, this was, gosh, it must be nearly 15 years ago, is my mom was offered no advice on anything in terms of what she should eat or any lifestyle activities that might be really helpful for her. And what you've seen over the last decade is so much more emerging research on cancer and supportive, I don't want to call them interventions really, because there are more things that we should have all been doing anyway. So for example, eating a really nutritious diet loaded with antioxidants, managing stress, getting enough sleep, being outside and close to nature, these are things we should have been doing, but we've lost touch with a lot of that. And I took my mom to the Whole Foods because one of the things I'd read about was that she should probably make her environment more chemical free and look at using natural products.
Keris Marsden:
So I took her to Whole Foods and we were looking around at all the natural deodorants, because actually one thing she was told was stop using aluminum deodorant. So I managed to get a little bit of buy in on this one from her and she said, "Okay, then, I'll look into this." And we saw a poster for a talk by a naturopathic nutritionist about personal skincare and to reduce the environmental toxins in your household and lifestyle really to help if you had a cancer diagnosis. So I took my mom along to that talk and it was one of the most brilliant talks I've ever seen really. And the nutritionist, she was a naturopath, stood up, and in just the most compassionate way spoke to, there was about 20 women in the room. Some, their cancer had returned, so it was a very emotional environment to be in, and some of them were terminally ill, which I remember finding that really hard to hear them even speak about that.
Keris Marsden:
But she really just talked about what they could do in terms of their nutritional choices, what they could do in terms of reducing exposure to environmental toxins, supplements that were really, really safe. And the whole thing was just, as I mentioned, so much empathy and you could tell she was very passionate about helping. So I asked her where she studied. I said, "I really love your approach. I'd love to know more about all of this. Where did you study and what would you suggest I do?" And she actually taught at the College of Naturopathic Medicine, so I ended up going there myself and then eventually ended up teaching as well, quite a long story.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, but remember this is a long-form podcast, you can be as lengthy as you want. One of the things that I find fascinating when I interview people or have conversations outside of this, is the context in which we make certain life decisions is hugely important. And it sounds to me that you followed your internal compass, which is absolutely mesmerizing and really beautiful. Now, hearing you talk about this, so first did your mom get better?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah, she's still around. And it's an amazing journey because one of the things we're taught when you study nutrition is don't help friends or family because it does come with its conflicts, and that you can lose sight. And I definitely did lose sight, at times, of the relationships that we have and the fact that you can become a bit militant when you really want health for somebody, a bit dogmatic about what they should be eating and how they should be living their life because you fully believe they should be doing more.
Keris Marsden:
And I think over time, I've definitely mellowed because I've also realized the power, as I mentioned, the bigger picture, the power of relationships, experiences, and environments, and to be with your family and enjoying some delicious food. It doesn't matter if it's got gluten in it or it's full of sugar. There are ways I think that we can enjoy food. There are ways that food I think is prepared with a different energy, a lot of love, and it's part of that shared experience that I've definitely relaxed a lot. And so yeah, she's doing really well, but I still help both my parents. My dad also got diagnosed with cancer a little bit further down the line. We have a situation now where I check in on them and I help them and I often direct them towards other people, like a herbalist that I might want them to work with. So I'm almost project manage their health, but I'm not directly trying to micromanage them all the time, which I definitely did for a while.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's nice. I hope they're thankful regardless of how that's administered.
Keris Marsden:
They are really grateful. Like I said, we've had some emotional conversations where they said, "You need to back off." And it does become difficult when you know a lot of information. I definitely am guilty of thinking I know more, when really I think the human body, it's so deeply complex, and I'm sure you will know this as well, that we actually know so little about it. Miracles exist, there are people that are out there with fantastic health when they smoke and drink every day. On paper, they may live till they're 90. It's very unusual how we know the risks around certain lifestyle behaviors and nutritional choices, but it just doesn't always conclude that way. So over time, like I said, I think I've stepped back and thought more about someone's sense of purpose and how much they enjoy life and their relationships, how nurturing and supportive they are. These can really transform people's health and are just as important as food and daily exercise and other things.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I heard you on a podcast that I have to double check the name of. And I remember you telling the host that there was an element about the way that the naturopathic nutrition was taught, that was linked to functional medicine. And I was wondering if you could speak to this a little bit for me, because I've heard several people speak about functional medicine, which I understand is much more holistic, is that correct?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah. So essentially the model of Western medicine that's evolved, and it was never really intended to be this way, if you look at the founding fathers of it, they never really wanted it to work out like this, but the way our health services are structured is such a short period of time that a medical professional can spend with you. The only thing they can really offer is symptom suppression and symptom alleviation. So it's like if you have back ache and you go to a doctor, all they're going to be able to give you is something for pain management, they don't have time to look at your posture, ask you about how you sit across the day, look at maybe muscular imbalances. They do not have the time and less so now even the training to do that assessment on you or talk about your nutrition and sleep and things like that, which are all a big part of musculoskeletal health.
Keris Marsden:
We've fallen into this pattern of, we get a pill for a problem, essentially. There are situations where that is definitely the right thing, and I never discourage my clients from seeking support from conventional medicine. In fact, I often think I'm just staggered between the two, because it has these brilliant strengths as well, where those medications can intercept a lot of inflammatory messaging signals and things like that, so they can get you better sleep, which can help in that healing process. But I think alongside that symptom alleviation, there has to be some addressing or acknowledgement of the causes, investigation of the causes, and that's what we do with functional medicine and naturopathic medicines. We sit down with someone for a longer period of time for a start, so it can be an hour, maybe even longer. I will often send pre-consultation questionnaires to get a full picture of somebody's lifestyle, their symptoms, their nutritional intake. I'll ask questions about stress, about relationships, and obviously I'm getting information about whether you smoke, whether you drink, health history, what runs in the family?
Keris Marsden:
So I collect all that beforehand and then I have an hour with a person to really start to understand their personalities as well. Are they somebody who's maybe quite anxious and very vulnerable to stress, or are they somebody who's maybe just lacking in knowledge about what they need to do? So I'm able to get that insight into, again, where those gaps might be able to be bridged. Then what we often do with functional medicine is the model itself encourages you to look at the whole of the body, so we identify all the different systems. But all of your systems are linked, so it's very common to have a digestive issue that's actually affecting your mental health. For example, we know there's a link, there's a nerve that runs, vagus nerve from the brain to the gut, but a lot of signaling goes from the gut to the brain. So any dysfunction with the gut could actually be starting to cause down regulation of some of your feel-good chemicals, your calming chemicals, like serotonin and GABA, so you're very prone to low moods and anxiety.
Keris Marsden:
And so we look at fixing the gut, whereas obviously if you went to visit a conventional medicine practitioner, they would probably say, "Here's some antidepressants to give you a bit more serotonin." So we go a little bit deeper and a little bit more broader in terms of what system might be affecting another system, which could be causing some of those symptoms. And then equally, the difference really is that we identify some causes, we look at systems linking, and we look at something called drivers or mediators. So what might be stopping a person from being able to recover from this or heal?
Keris Marsden:
The body always wants to find its balance, it wants what we call homeostasis, it wants to fix itself, so what's preventing that process? And that's, again, where it's a combination of speaking to that person, finding out about their lifestyle and it could be a very poor work-life balance. It could be exposure to an environmental toxin. For example, you live in a city and you've got respiratory issues, but you are exposed to pollution on a daily basis. So we try and find out some of these drivers come up with solutions.
Keris Marsden:
And also, a big part of the difference here is that we as practitioners see ourselves as teachers. So the whole time that I'm talking to a client, I'll also be explaining my thought processes and I'll also be detailing why I want them to focus on their breathing, to help with their digestive problem. And I'll explain that if we're not breathing properly, that affects every system in the body, but specifically whether we're in that kind of rest, digest, reproduce mode., and so they get empowered by that knowledge. They then buy into the whole process a little bit more because if you have an understanding of why you're doing something, you're more likely to do it.
Keris Marsden:
I often see people come back from a doctor's appointment and refuse to take their medication because they don't really feel that they've been listened to, or maybe that it's the right thing, or they're concerned about causes, they don't want to just get rid of the symptoms, so that's where the main difference lies. And of course the big overall thing is we treat a person, we don't treat a symptom, we don't treat a test result, we treat that person sat in front of us.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So there's a couple of things that I want to follow up with. The first one is, can you talk to me about this relationship between breath and the gut health, because that sounds fascinating?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah. One of the most common patterns that I've seen. Gut health has just got so much more interest now, and that's both academically and in the scientific communities and then nutritional therapists similarly are trained a lot now in digestive health. And even conventional medicine is starting to realize that where we just thought the gut was this organ, it had to do certain things, produce acid, make some enzymes, digest your food, get rid of your food. We now know that it actually has a big role in our immune system health and that it's also affecting, as I mentioned, cognitive function, brain health. It even influences your blood sugars, so you've got hormones in your digestive system that speaks your pancreas and will therefore regulate your energy across the day, so we know that the gut's actually got this much greater role.
Keris Marsden:
What's really interesting is, is traditional cultures have known this for a long time, and we have sayings like, "Follow your gut instinct," and, "Listen to your gut," because it also does affect your emotional health. And more technical term is your nervous system, so that's your wiring of your body. Now, wiring can go down very simply almost two different roots. So you've probably heard of what we call fight or flight kind of stress mode across the day, and then we have the opposite, which is rest, digest and reproduce.
Keris Marsden:
Many people now talk about fight, flight and fear mode because actually you could generate a slight stress response. It's not the usual one you have when you're doing hill sprints, but you can generate a slight stress response that alters your chemicals just by thinking fearful thoughts, which most people do a lot because that's our protective mechanism against stress. If we're on guard all the time, we're ready. And that would've really served us in ancestral times when we were hunting gatherers, but nowadays it doesn't because it does tend to be a bit 24/7 and affects our sleep, and it affects our food choices, it affects our interactions with other people, so it can have a real impact on our overall health.
Keris Marsden:
Going back to the breath work, what that will actually do is if you just first of all ask clients to often observe their breathing, and what they tend to notice is they breathe very quickly and in a very shallow manner, so generally just in and out of the chest, their chest will rise and fall. And this is kind of a reflection that they are in what we call sympathetic nervous system mode, which is that fight or flight. So they're, again, slightly geared up for a stress response or in a stress response, but it's not top gear necessarily. And when you do more of a deep belly breathing and we really push the diaphragm down, and you'll know this from yoga, when you do that belly breathing where the belly rises and the belly falls, we call that diaphragmatic breathing. But what that actually does is it activates that vagus nerve running from brain to gut and puts us into rest, digest and reproduce.
Keris Marsden:
And from there, what you see is the digestive system has its own nervous system, called the enteric nervous system, and that gets switched on. So your stomach muscles relax, you gain that digestive motility that we absolutely need for healthy digestive function and things just work like they should, will make stomach acid, will make digestive enzymes. Microbiome are suddenly like, "Oh, thank God I can chill. I'm not in stress mode all the time." Well, I like to think that's what they're saying, never heard that message, but the reason I emphasize that is it's so simple and something that's free for everyone to do, I have to say one of the hardest things people feedback to do sometimes as well, along with chewing their food properly.
Keris Marsden:
But it's easy to get distracted with all of this information about the gut and think that probiotics are the answer, you need to do lots and lots of stool testing, or you need to look at eating all of these fermented foods. And they are beneficial, there's definitely a role for all that, but I always think let's start off with giving the body what it needs and put it where it should be in terms of that balanced, nervous system state. And just see if actually relaxing all the muscles and the physiology around the digestive system might improve bowel function and digestion and absorption of food., and maybe we didn't need any of these pills, these probiotics and things after all. That's why I always emphasize that point. But as I mentioned it, sometimes the easiest things are the hardest to do, that's the crazy thing sometimes isn't it?
Anne Muhlethaler:
I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm so glad that we went towards breath, as well as gut health. I was listening to Russell Brand's podcast and he had an all circle James Nestor on, I don't know whether you've heard of him?
Keris Marsden:
No, I love Russell Brand. He's got a vocabulary that's next level, but I do love his [inaudible 00:20:40].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yes, I would agree with you there. And so actually one of my favorite people in the world and my yoga teacher, Diana Rilov, told me over the holidays that she'd read that book called Breath, The New Science of a Lost Art, and so it's on my list. And interestingly, one of the things he was saying, is one of the reasons why he thinks that we are not so well aware about breath is because breath is natural and there's no money making scheme around using something that is actually accessible for absolutely everyone. And he was also expressing very clearly how very documented all of those processes are now by scientific papers, and that's been the case for the past 40 or so years, so I'm looking forward to getting into it.
Keris Marsden:
I completely agree. It's hard because a lot of the things that we should be doing, because there's no money to be made, there's not much messaging, definitely no public health messaging, which is a real shame. Because again, if it came from governments, we've got this situation with COVID, our immune system. If we had a little bit more information on breathing and fresh air and yoga, lymphatic stimulation, there's so much that people could be doing right now to look after themselves and it's been a bit frustrating to see that lack of information, when it's there in the science.
Keris Marsden:
But it always makes me smile how much there's now scientific research that owning a dog is hugely beneficial for your health. It's just interesting. Well, if we can get a study on it. I don't know, some of these things, I'm like, "Why do we need a study, we know that dogs are awesome?" I always say that Hamish, we've got a Bavarian Mountain Hound, is one of the best health coaches I've had in terms of watching how they intuitively look after themselves. And even their microbiome in a way, that he's forever rolling in Fox poo and he just knows he needs to be close to mother nature in so many different ways. He's does his downward dog every day, he's always napping in the sun, if there's bit of sunlight in the house ever, he's there, he's on it. The way they look after themselves without even... I don't know they can be such a guide, just like children, really, they can be... We lose sight of a lot of the simple things that we need to be doing.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. You know, I just did earlier today, a really lovely vinyasa flow with a teacher called Jo Tastula, and her inspiration was the state of flow. And obviously vinyasa speaks to following the breath, so I think this links nicely with what we were just saying. And she was talking about how she's been observing geckos. And it was so fun because in the middle of the flow and just moving from one thing to the next, just remembering what other animals, the way that they behave and move and the state of presence that they have, it was a really lovely, inspirational way in to looking at my own practice and feeling myself in my body at that time.
Keris Marsden:
It's interesting, because also, when I'm talking about stress on talks, I always say, if you look at an animal... So if I watch Hamish and he sees a dog where he's not quite sure what their interaction is going to be like, his first mode, he goes into defense mode and he'll put his heckles up, his tail goes straight and he stalks, tries to make himself look stronger. If it's a cat that he's doing this too, he'll be doing an angry cat and making itself look scary, there will be some kind of interaction and normally the cat wins, and then they both shake out. So they have this kind of release of all that energy that they generated for a stress response.
Keris Marsden:
And I think one of our problems is we can spend hours in a slowly building stressed state, because we're a laptop or we're a phone and technology's failing us or someone's annoying us on email. And then we don't do anything physical to allow that buildup of energy within the body to be directed to something positive. And I think often what we should be doing is, like you just said, jump up and do a sun salutation or put some music on and dance around, just for a few minutes. Firstly, it's just brilliant to distract yourself. But secondly, I think it's great for getting rid of that nervous energy that you've generated. So yeah, animals can be just brilliant health coaches if we just watched them for a while.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'm so excited you mentioned this shaking thing, That release. So have you heard of this book by Emily and Amelia Nagoski, called Burnout?
Keris Marsden:
No, but I'm familiar with burnout.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, we can get into... I was going to ask you about that actually, lead into that later. Recently, a friend of mine forwarded me an interview of these two sisters who were one Brené Brown's podcast. And one of them was explaining how we haven't learned to actually close the emotional loop. I think I was fascinated by what they were describing as just our lack of knowledge around the fact that we are in constant stresses and we don't release them.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Now, I know a little bit about burnout because, well, at the time I didn't know what it was, but I was, let's say, I was flooding with burnout for a couple of years when I was back in my old job. And I put a lot of time and energy in not burning out. And only later on did I realize that by trying to get massages, doing a lot of yoga, doing pranayama, doing meditation, I put so much energy and research into trying to find some peace and comfort, that I guess that at some point I was closing the loop. If not in the same energetic sense as what you just described or what was described by her then, but effectively I was doing everything I could to trigger the rest and digest response, I guess.
Keris Marsden:
Yeah, I know it's amazing. And one of the issues with it when I work with people very similar to you, perhaps really driven and motivated type A personalities, is they often are quite proactive in their health as well, so they will also be trying to eat well and, like you said, have acupuncture, often are things that are quite easy to tick. But one of the things with burnout, I think that's really helpful too, or when you are, I love your phrase, "Flirting with burnout," because you're probably going to go back there. It can be just almost part of you to have that real push element, is to ask yourself the question why, and that is a little bit of exploration of going back to childhood, conditioning processes, influences in your life and it will be part of your personality.
Keris Marsden:
And so going forward, it can also be, for someone like you, if I was to tell you know, to put your feet up and do nothing, that could be equally stressful for you as well. So it's really about trying to find that right balance between the right level of stress, some kind of stress release, or like you just said, I love that you're set thinking about just moving through those emotions and looping them around, so there's other stuff to bring you back down to where you rebalance the body. And everyone's just got their own tolerance for these things. It's easy to get swept up in it and it's addictive. And before you know it, you're surrounded by energy vampires and you are just delivering to them constantly without ever questioning whether this is sustainable, the expectations are even realistic for you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I do think that the way that the world evolved and sort of corporate culture has evolved with globalization, increased travel and our change in mode of communications, has made people across all industries arrive in this low-level, constant stressor environment, where I remember one of my favorite sayings that I heard, I can't remember who says this. He says, "Living in a human body is like living in a house where the doorbell and the alarm have the same sound."
Keris Marsden:
That's so good. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So, I mean, essentially when you get a text message, it could either be super cool or your boss screaming at you in capital letters.
Keris Marsden:
Yeah. That's cool.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And it's the same thing when you open every email. So, we really don't know what's around the corner from every device that surrounds us. And of course I can imagine how most of us end up in this state of constant, low- level stress and that over years, and then if you couple that with the pandemic, with health problems from your friend, your family, your parents, anything external, can just push people over. So I would love to ask you, have you worked with people who've experienced burnout and what do you advise?
Keris Marsden:
So yeah, I've had lots of clients and I've also had a couple of episodes myself. So again, once you get into the role of helping others, it's really easy to just let your own battery start to go very low. This is why I say you have to ask, "What's the why behind the scenes?" Because it's also addictive to be getting that, I suppose, sense of status and purpose really. But it is a sense of status, people are going, "Oh, I worked with Keris and it was amazing and I feel fixed." And so even though you know you need to rest, someone else tries to book, or books in, and you can't say no, despite your body trying to feedback that it is time for you to put your own health and your own needs first possibly.
Keris Marsden:
What I tend to see is a mixture of whenever a client comes to me, they sometimes feel that they have a condition. So they say, "I've maybe got chronic fatigue, or I think I've got hormone imbalance, or I'm just a medical mystery, according to a doctor that there's definitely some things that don't look right on blood test, but I don't fit a diagnosis." So they're kind of almost saying, "Take this pill, it might help." You can't blame the medical world for this because what can they do about your level of stress and the fact that you've taken on just far too many responsibilities and just run your body ragged, perhaps again, like you said, through work, travel, or just caring for others, whatever it might have been? They can't do anything about that, so that's why people will often then turn to alternative medicine, naturopath, acupuncture, those types of things.
Keris Marsden:
And they do have, I have to say, a profound effect, because this is where alternative medicine has its strengths, it's going to look at the person, and it's going to start to ask questions and educate that individual about your body has resources, your brain has resources. My most serious one was actually about 18 months ago. I'm still kind of in the thick of it at the moment. I've made progress, and this is also what I do with clients, I've made progress using conventional medicine to eliminate that there may be some kind of problem, be it structural, be it an actual diagnosis. But then I've also done so much personal work, done some things like acupuncture that can be really supportive, but I've also just had to do a lot of investigation as to why do I feel the need to push myself so hard.
Keris Marsden:
So I spend a lot of time in the kitchen cooking, but one thing that my partner can just never get over is how messy I am. So once I get going, I'll create three, four recipes, but I don't tidy as I go. And he walks in and it's chaos. So there's just food all over the side, cupboards are open, the bins overflowing, the sink's full, and he's like, "I don't know how you can work like this." But then what I'll do is I'll just whizz round and clean everything up super quick and you won't even know I've been cooking in there, and I use this as what's going on in our cells.
Keris Marsden:
So if you keep your body really busy, so think about this as a neuron in your brain or gut cells, whatever it might be, cells used to generate that fight off flight response. When they're busy doing stuff, it's really similar to me just batch cooking in the kitchen and just making a bit of a mess as I go. And in our cells, what we get is this generation of, we call them free radicals or technically, reactive auction species, but just these byproducts, it's just the mess that's being made as we're generating ATP, which is a fuel source for our cells. And if we don't spend a bit of time cleaning up, these free radicals go around and start damaging the components of the cell. So the cell, it will get to a point where it can no longer do its job, it can't generate ATP, and if it's a neuron, for example, in your brain, it then can't make your serotonin, it can't make your GABA to make you feel nice and calm.
Keris Marsden:
So some of the symptoms that we start to get are feedback that at very basic level, we are just cells and our cells are really struggling to get through their to-do list, and probably because they're just not being given the time and the space to clean up the mess. And that time and space is for example, sleep mindfulness, meditation, not thinking, resting, doing creative things, uses a different area of your brain as well, so you can give certain areas of your brain a little bit of a break as you do other activities. So when you see these burnout conditions, there's often just been years of that, maybe even decades., it's incredible how much the body will fight and defend you and do everything you're asking of it for a long period of time, but it's got limits.
Keris Marsden:
And eventually we call it oxidative stress and it always comes with inflammation. So inflammation always with too many of those free radicals, damaging everything, not enough antioxidants and time to rebuild and repair, we'll get inflammation and then we just get this kind of storm inside the body and dysfunction. And we feel that as no energy or low mood, maybe not able to get out of bed, and a lot of digestive stuff normally comes along with it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
One of the things I was noting from what you've explained a moment ago, which interests me a great deal is that you said your body tries to feed back. And I think that one of the reasons why I ended up going towards further studying in yoga and meditation and mindfulness, and also now into coaching, is because like your mother, I guess, when she got her diagnosis, I got a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis when I was 39. And I said to my doctor, "Thanks for the news. Is there anywhere that I can find more information?" And she said, "Yeah, like ra.com," or whatever it is.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That was it. There was nothing else, no information, no resources, nothing at all. And thankfully, completely by chance, I went to a beautiful wellness resort in Thailand a few months later where I met a wonderful naturopath and after a full detox of my body, I then thought, "Oh, I really like this naturopathic thing. Do you have someone that you could recommend in New York?" And she sent me to a doctor who was both Chinese doctor and naturopath. And I guess that then I kept on following my hunch bit by bit, wellness therapist or alternative therapist one after the other. And this got me to really investigate the nature of the mind, body, heart relationship, because I'm assuming that my body tried to tell me I was flirting with burnout, I'm not sure I was listening.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And so obviously by the time I started to have sharp pain in my joints or swelling, obviously I had to start to pay attention, I had to slow down. Literally it was stopping me in my tracks, depending on where pain was coming from, making it impossible to do certain tasks and to stay put, which is interesting when you consider that I was a high-flyer literally at the time. So what would be some of the ways that you encourage, if this is something you encourage in your clients, to actually listen to their bodies?
Keris Marsden:
What your body eventually does is it just puts the brakes on. There's a fantastic book you might have heard of by a doctor called Gabor Maté and his book is called When the Body Says No.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I believe it's on my list. I've go many books on the go.
Keris Marsden:
She has some amazing lectures on YouTube because sometimes you're getting into a book, you're like, "I will, I will," but actually he's just got 30, 40 minute talks on YouTube, and I'll put those on again when I'm just cooking. And there's one that I've listened to four times, I think, I have to just keep listening to it, and it's called Caring for Yourselves When Caring for Others. It just really helps me to revisit a lot of things and check in. Really one of the problems is any symptom that we're experiencing is feedback and the more chronic consistent it becomes, eventually it will become debilitating, but the more chronic it becomes, the more you can say it's a bit like someone ringing you up to tell you know, ""Your house is on fire, your house is on fire, your house is on fire." You keep leaving it, eventually your house will burn down. And it's a bad analogy, but it's kind of like that. And so it-
Anne Muhlethaler:
It's bad, but I think people will remember it.
Keris Marsden:
So it's very extreme. And do you know what's really incredible. So very similar to you, I had a bit of feedback, I was getting a burning sensation, mine was in my chest and I was like, "Gosh, is that?" And I did eventually make time to go and see a doctor. And it's crazy that I was putting it off because I was so busy lecturing, I was running a company, I had clients, it was like other things needed my attention first. And so when I eventually got to see a doctor, it was a very quick appointment and they were like, "Oh, it's probably a kidney infection, take an antibiotic." This was a complete misdiagnosis by the way.
Keris Marsden:
And I was due to go on holiday and I did go on holiday and when I actually got on holiday, and you always see this often, the minute you relax and all of those stress hormones drop down, my entire stomach caught fire, that's the only way I can explain it, just a horrible burning sensation. And now I'm in Portugal, so I'm like, "Great. What do I do here?" And end up in hospital and had some very scary tests done, but they were like, "Everything seems okay. We think it might be..." They said they think it was trapped wind, so I was like, "Well, it's really doesn't feel like trapped wind."Anyway, I go home from the hospital, try and enjoy my holiday, but it gets worse and it starts to develop into nausea and eventually I have to fly home.
Keris Marsden:
And it took eight weeks before I was able to get an endoscopy, which was a camera down my throat, and what they found was my entire stomach was inflamed with gastritis. I don't know if you ever may have never had it, I'd never had it before in my life, so I didn't really know many of the symptoms, I wasn't able to kind of say, "Oh, it must be this." But you get this chronic nausea. So if I ate, I would feel sick. If I didn't eat, I would feel sick. So essentially I dropped down to the lowest weight I've ever been, I think in my life. It's been the most, I'd say, difficult 18 months of my life, trying to address that. And it's maybe even more challenging, I think you might find this as a yoga practitioner, when you think, "I'm a health professional, I should know this stuff. I should be able to fix this stuff."
Keris Marsden:
It's been a real challenge and not because I didn't do all the right things. So I immediately then scaled back work, completely overhaul my diet, it was good anyway, but I went very much down the route of just gut nourishing diet, took all the right supplements, slept a lot and really invested. And it was really expensive process, so I think part of the thing that you then question is, I was working really hard and trying to earn a living, I suppose, in some ways, and then I've ended up spending a fortune, trying to fix my health. So it doesn't even work out how you think it will.
Keris Marsden:
But like you, actually, what was really interesting was I worked with someone who was trained in traditional Chinese medicine acupuncture, so it's slightly different to other forms of acupuncture. And it was those two together which have really made a profound difference to my health. What's really interesting is, when all this happened, I was visiting for family with my partner up in Stratford-upon-Avon one and I went to get some acupuncture, because I always knew that a lot of the pain would be worse, again, because you get stressed with the symptoms, if my diaphragm kind of felt tense. So I got immense relief with breathing, so did a lot of breathing and yoga. And if I had acupuncture and they worked along the heart channel, I always felt better and would get less nausea.
Keris Marsden:
So I went to find an acupuncturist in Stratford-upon-Avon that I'd never been to before and it just happens that he was this Chinese medicine doctor. And he said to me, "I'll do acupuncture, I'll do a lecture electroacupuncture, but would you like to try herbs?" And at the time I was already working, I was doing my own stool testing, I was going to have endoscopies, and I was working with a Western herbalist, so I said, "No, I'm on that already." And so I left Stratford-upon-Avon and for six months carried on trying to work with the Western herbs and some other things, but it didn't work. And so I would have this constant nausea, but what that led me to was a whole process of reflection of, "Okay, I need to work less. I need to look after myself more."
Keris Marsden:
One thing I discovered, and Gabor Maté was very influential in this, is that you can sometimes be addicted to your work as a mode of distraction because you're not dealing with your underlying fears. And I think one of mine was that both my parents, they're my best friends, both have had cancer, and I went through this phase of thinking I could fix all of that and then tried to control all of that as well and I think that had become very unhealthy for me. And I've had to step back and being ill meant that I couldn't take on that role anymore in people's lives and try to keep managing their health for them. So it was a really beneficial process, as horrible as it was, to be nauseous for six months made me really, really do all of that reflection and look after myself.
Keris Marsden:
And then I went back to Stratford-upon-Avon Christmas and saw him again for acupuncture and he said, "Do you want to try the herbs this time?" And I said, "Yes." And they actually worked and have made a huge difference to me. But the reason I tell that story is if that happened straight away, I wonder if I'd have just gone back to excessive amounts of work. I was lecturing four or five days a week, seeing clients, and also we have a membership site and we were building that and we were filming content for that at the weekend, so I didn't have a single day off. And I didn't question that because my body was kind of allowing me the time to do it. So I like the way the universe maneuvered it so that I kind of got the answers in the end, but I had to have a longer journey there that was a bit nauseous.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, literally.
Keris Marsden:
Yeah. Literally
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's a powerful analogy. Yeah. So speaking to what you shared about how much work you were doing. I think that when you have a very strong sense of purpose it's, indeed, as you've described for other people going through burnout, it's indeed easy to get carried away. And I've noticed over the past few weeks that once or twice I've gone to bed incredibly late, not really by design. I ended up on the phone to a friend of mine who lives in New York and we talked for like two or three hours and then the next day I realized that I couldn't get much done because I was really tired. I felt like I had worked throughout the weekend, I had studied throughout the weekend, and effectively I had put myself in a position where I had to slow down, and my unbridled enthusiasm for the work I'm doing at the moment could push me over the edge.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Now personally, I've put some systems in place that prioritize my routine wellbeing first before I do any work. And so I think that as long as I continue to do that and refuse to compromise on this piece, then I think I'll be safe. I think it's a work of experimentation of, what are the things that you need to make sure that you do to look after yourself first? I did a guided, loving kindness meditation on Zoom yesterday and one of my friends joined me, which was really lovely, and we discussed the benefits of this particular practice. But one of the things that I know is quite shocking, is we're not used to sending ourselves or looking ourselves first. And I had done this specific meditation, which I'll put online later this week where the entire 20 minutes, you're just wishing yourself to be healthy, to be at ease, to be well, to be loved, to be happy. And we're not taught that, we're taught the opposite, to put other people's needs first. Don't you think that there's a sort of a social element of conditioning that goes against this self-preservation?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's really hard is there can be an element of guilt attached to you looking after yourself, and it's something that my last 18 months it's non-negotiable for me, I cannot go back there. So I like you, just have the odd slip and I refuse to give myself grief for that, but there'll be just the odd night I push it and I work till, gosh, I would work till really late, but now eight o'clock feels late. But it affects my sleep, and like you, I'm groggy the next day, so I dial down the next day, I take more breaks. I go and lie the sun with Hamish, he's my coach.
Keris Marsden:
But I spoke to my parents about this because if you listen to that Gabor Maté talk, he does some fascinating review of the literature on people who get cancer, in terms of their personality types, are very much selfless, always thinking of others, always looking after others, and serving the energy vampires and often have some negative relationships in their life, but they nurture them as well, they see them as a reflection of them. And I definitely, stepping back, that's my mom, all her life, just constantly making sure, I have two brothers, that we are all okay. And I'm going to be honest here, my brothers are selfish. They're boys, they're just typical... They do their own thing. And I just watched the balance there, I'm like, "Mom, they're always suiting their own needs that you need to reign in and look after yourself."
Keris Marsden:
But what was interesting is when my dad was diagnosed with cancer as well, just slightly later, they had very different approaches to it, in that my dad got very logical and said to me, What can I do?" And I outlined, "You "could exercise, be outside, eat a nutritious diet. And he got very proactive with that. But then he did say to me once, they have grandchildren now, he said, "Oh, when I go and look after the grandchildren, I feel if I don't go for my walk in the morning, I really struggle mentally energy wise. It's like I need that fresh air, I need that break, but I feel guilty because I'm supposed to be there doing the morning routine." And he said, ""Looking after yourself and being healthy can be selfish. Can't it?" And I said, "No, no, not at all," because it's just about communicating that. And when you go into these commitments with people, you've got a factor in, "I'll do this, but I will need my morning walk. Is there a compromise? Can you take the grandkids with you?"
Keris Marsden:
There needs to be some conversations about this so that you're not constantly sacrificing your needs to meet the needs of others. And ultimately the motivating driving factor, I said to my dad is, "How long do you want to be a grandfather for?" Because it is really essential that we do have exercise and fresh air and things like that. And so luckily it's a short period of time that he will commit to looking after the grandkids, he doesn't do it... I have some clients who are childcare every day for their grandkids and they're struggling because they're like, "Gosh, it's stressful. And I could do this 20 years ago, but it's a lot harder now."
Keris Marsden:
There is a guilt factor I think that comes with it and we think, like you've said, that it's selfish, it's so not selfish. And the healthiest, strongest people I know take an hour usually at the start of their day and an hour at the end of the day for them and their health. And sometimes it's split, it's 20 minutes, start middle and end of the day. Essentially, how much do people want you to be happy and think about your longevity as well? That's what we've got to kind of start talking about a little bit more.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. That's super inspiring, actually. I noticed also that you were mentioning earlier that sometimes it's also about having a mental break and doing something completely different. And I think that's why learning something new doesn't feel tiring for me because if I take myself out of my regular work, to be doing something that touches my curiosity, it really feels refreshing rather than tiring., which is good. And speaking about the creative work as well as being close to nature, I reconnected with music when I became a freelancer. And I think that part of the reason why I went freelancing is because I said to myself, "I will do between half an hour and an hour of music every day." I really manage to do this, let's say, six days a week. And I generally do it at the end of the day, which maybe clears also the stress cycle because I do a lot of [foreign language 00:48:41], they say in French, vocal exercises, before I sit down at the piano. So I'm sure this releases something.
Keris Marsden:
The singing, the vocal exercises, will be toning your vagus nerve, so-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh yeah, the breathing is key about the singing.
Keris Marsden:
Yeah. So that will be putting you in rest and digest, and creative brain we're in a completely different state, using different areas of our brain. Everyone's really different when we talk about, "How do you balance stress? What should you do?" And I think if we're too prescriptive and dogmatic that you have to meditate, you will find a lot of people cannot meditate. And I'm one of them, I do actually do them now, but I'm not religious with it, I'm not like, "Get up." You're brilliant, when I remember you telling me what your daily routine was, I was like, "Gosh, she's so good." But I'm much more, I'm quite a kinetic person, so I will struggle to sit still. And I will quite enjoy mindful walks and Hamish is my coach on that. Sometimes I'll listen to podcasts and music when I walk, but sometimes I'll switch off everything and I listen to the dawn chorus and I try to watch nature and I try to watch Hamish and just be in the moment. So it's a kind of type of meditation or mindfulness that really works for me.
Keris Marsden:
But equally learning, I'm a big fan of kettle bells, that's what I trained a lot in when I was a personal trainer. So learning a new kettlebell exercise, like a windmill or a Turkish get-up where there's lots of steps and you've got to focus. I'm not thinking about emails when I do that. It's another type of mindful activity that you can do. So it's very different how people can switch off and tune into just a different part of the brain, that is really healthy and dancing. And things like that, like you, I had a moment where I was like, I used to love dancing in front of the mirror when I was a teenager, so I've done a little bit of that in the last year as well.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's so fun. Oh, that's great. I remember there was a particular time in the fall where I decided I wanted to do something different, something new for more release. And my friend had told me about this thing called The Class by TT, by Taryn Toomey I think she's called, and it's a mix of hit with a lot of repetitive movement that really make me think of Kundalini. So I could see how a lot of moving your body and twists in certain ways and repetition, and then a lot of dancing and it felt really exhausting, but so good.
Keris Marsden:
Oh, that's awesome. Another thing that our brain always needs is just new skills and new knowledge, always keep that journey that adventure going, don't ever let yourself stagnate because there's science now showing that you grow new brain cells, which we didn't even know we could do when we stimulate new neuromuscular pathways. And people that learn languages live longer and have less risk of dementia because they're constantly utilizing these connections within the brain. For me, learning new skills is also usually led to new friendships and new communities to hang out with as well. So just before lockdown, I did sign up to join the rock choir, which is I can't sing. That's a great thing about burnout, I was like, "Well, I don't care anymore. I just want to go and have some fun and be around people and just not think about feeling rough."
Keris Marsden:
And so I signed up, but interestingly, I chickened out because it got to the first session they sent you the songs and I was like, "Oh, I haven't had time to learn them. And they said, you didn't need to, but I was like, "No, I'm not going to go." And then lockdown hit the next time it was due to be on and I see that as a sign that I just need to go next time, take the ball by the horns and just go for it. And a friend of mine from a yoga class that she had gone and she inspired me to sign up and said, "It's the best thing I've ever done to be around people and just singing." And it's cool, no one cares if you can sing. That's the important thing for me.
Anne Muhlethaler:
My friend Lupe joined, but that was a few years ago and she loved it and she will heartfully tell you she really can't sing. Do you know it's funny, we were talking about this with a friend, Ganesh, who I interviewed the other day. After the podcast, he asked me what was my favorite word, and my favorite word is harmony. And I realized that when I was a teenager, because I love vocal bands. So stuff like En Vogue sends me to heaven, it just makes me really incredibly happy.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I did put together a five piece acapella girl band. It was just for a couple of specific shows. I was managing the other four teenage girls, so that was the unhappy part about that, that was my beginnings in management, but I absolutely adore human harmonies together, there's something incredible and magical. The pendant to this is harmony is something that I really seek in my daily life. I need a harmonious space around me. I need to feel balanced. So the other day, when you and I talked, you mentioned some of the things that we can do to ground ourselves to create more harmony in ourselves. And you talked a bit about the benefits of walking barefoot. Would you mind speaking to this?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah. There's science on this. Not that there necessarily needs to be because a lot of tribes just do this. What happens when we walk barefoot and we connect back to the earth, is I mentioned before the free radicals, so are generated when we are busy doing stuff, thinking and exercising, anything, digesting food. What the research has shown is that when we are barefoot, we actually draw up electrons from the earth and they can neutralize some of the free radicals. So the science is very much focused on heart disease at the moment, showing the effect on lowering blood pressure, helping with heart rate. And then also just lowering these free radicals will reduce that oxidative stress that I mentioned earlier. So again, that oxidative stress is a driver of the cardiovascular disease. So you'll start to continue that vascular damage and the other processes that will then cause some kind of incident, which can be of course very serious.
Keris Marsden:
It's fascinating, but I recommend it for any kind of inflammatory condition to a client because inflammation, oxidative stress are often hand in hand and will drive one another. It's, again, low risk, easy to do. Not for everyone, I've got lots of clients in London where they're like, "What? Where do I go barefoot?" Next time you're sitting in the park, you kick your shoes off and just pop your feet in the grass, it's beneficial.
Keris Marsden:
And I always try to connect my clients back to nature or bring nature back into their home in some way. So I'm often kind of mentioning, if you do have a garden and obviously you can partner out there and have a cup of tea, bare foot, do your yoga and exercise outside, that's also great for daylight exposure. But I also talk about doing things like having plant house plants in your home and opening your windows. So if you are city- based, there's still loads that you can do and trying to have that lunch break in the park rather than in the office. So there's ways that we can always connect back to nature and it's always going to re-support immune function and harmony within the immune system. And I'm sure we will see a little bit more research confirming this and hopefully more green spaces being created in cities to make this happen.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, that makes a big difference for me, I completely agree with you. Thanks so much. It's really funny because I did not go at all towards the questions that I had written. Oops. So I feel like I'm going to have to talk to you another time because I could keep talking to you all day, I have a feeling.
Keris Marsden:
I've enjoyed it. It's great to chat with you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Let's just look at a couple of them. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the recipe book that you put out around the paleo diet. And I think The Paleo Primer it's called, would you speak to what are the principles behind the book?
Keris Marsden:
I remember seeing a friend in the gym one day who just got into CrossFit and the paleo diet was very popular with the CrossFit community and he just looked amazing actually. I remember thinking, "God, his skin and everything looks really good." And I said, "What are you up to? You look really good, really well." And then he said, I remember it vividly, he went, "Paleo, baby." That was it. And I went off and looked it up online and then ended up ordering a book by Robb Wolf who's still a proponent of that, he's a little bit more ketogenetic diets now. But I downloaded his book and read it and really enjoyed it. And at the time I had quite a lot of digestive issues, so irritable bowel syndrome. And so I started to implement some of the things, it's a paleo diet, so it's looking at the paleolithic period and just encouraging you to eat more like our ancestors did, so essentially it's things like meat, fish, poultry, vegetables, nuts seeds.
Keris Marsden:
And I just saw an instant change in my gut health, in my overall health, things like sleep improved. What I was actually probably doing was also just putting foods in my body that were much more nutritious for a start and that's one of the kind of principles behind the paleo diet, and then also just slightly easier on my digestive system. Maybe being a bit more conscious about food choices as well. So not just eating mindlessly and snacking on things like rice cakes like you do as a personal trainer, you just grab and go all the time. It brought a lot of good habits. And from there I started to then just research recipes and eventually decided to start to put together recipe books for my clients. So just type them up and give them to clients that I was helping.
Keris Marsden:
And it went from there where I realized I couldn't just give them a typical breakfast, lunch and dinner, I had to explain the why and do the principles. So I did a lot more research and put this into this mini PDF, which just grew and grew, and my partner started to help with the recipes as well. And it basically got to about 150 pages long, so I gave it to a friend and she said, "When you read through this, just proof read it for me." And she said, "You know you've just written a book there," because I had started to explain blood sugar balance, anti-inflammatory, effective nutrition, sugar reduction, all those types of things.
Keris Marsden:
And then interestingly, we decided to get it printed, self-publish and then an American publisher called, he's actually a paleo proponent himself, Mark Sisson, has a company called Primal Blueprint, and he got hold of it. I actually wrote to him and said, "Will you do a forward?" And he replied back and said, "I'd actually love to publish this." And then eventually Ebury contacted us and they published as well, so it's been a big, big journey. And what's interesting about it, we did a second book again, same thing just adapted slightly, is over time, I'm still a fan of that template. I don't like the word paleo necessarily, and we never called our book paleo, we called it Fitter Food, that's the name of our company. Because what we wanted to say was that the paleo template was great and we've lost sight of it, because we're all living on bread and cereal and a lot of refined processed foods. So if we think back looking at what my parents and grandparents ate, it had evolved quite significantly and probably not in a good way.
Keris Marsden:
The main thing that's different between our diet now and our diet, even if you look at 50 years ago, is a serious lack of micronutrients, vitamins, and minerals. And you could argue even things like fibers now as well, because everything's more refined. And so that encouragement back to cooking again for ourselves, not relying on ready meals and eating out all the time, which has become a habit for a lot of people, or a regular thing really, and finding these quick meals and using really nutritious ingredients. So even now we've done a second book. What you'll find with a kind of paleo community is sometimes they're a bit dogmatic and say, "You cannot eat lentils, they are devils spawn." It gets ridiculous when it gets like that for me, because I think that wasn't really anything that I would necessarily say now. I think everyone has to think about adapting their diet in terms of go back to cooking for yourself, go back to single ingredient foods, whole foods, diet.
Keris Marsden:
And then you have to develop this template, which is going to be a mixture of plant-based meals with a little bit of meat, fish, vegetables, ideally as well reared as you can possibly afford financially. I'd still rather people ate real food even if they have to go to the supermarket and buy meat and things from there, I'd rather ate real food than just got takeaways and lived on sandwiches and pasta and things like that all the time, just the white foods that don't have much nutrition to them. We just call ourselves Fitter Food now. And it's really hard to give it a label, but we are probably more like a Mediterranean diet, but really our encouragement is personalize it. Some people like to be pescatarian, some people like to be vegetarian, plant-based, and I help them adapt.
Keris Marsden:
And equally just figure out if something's lacking for you. So you do see now there's a big trend towards plant-based. And I think we all need to be eating more vegetables, we all need to be thinking about local sourcing as well with that. So it's kind of hard that plant-based is pushing people towards a lot of avocados and nuts and tofu and it's still creating a problem in terms of food miles and the environmental effect of our choices. But I do think, pushing back to much more vegetables, antioxidants in our diet, it's usually beneficial. But what you'll see is genes are influential in this, you have a different diet ancestry. And so what works for some people may not work for others and they just need a little bit of meat and fish and they feel much better for it.
Keris Marsden:
And there is that element of adaptation that I always encourage people to do. Don't just go plant based because that's what someone in the office does or you've seen a video on Facebook, which is often a polemic design to make you change your mind about food. You really have to be the scientist of yourself and do your own experimenting with this, put some things in place and see the effect.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I love that advice. I think experimenting with your own body's responses, the empirical side is really the best thing to do. That's really cool. I was going to ask you to speak about, because this sounds like something that most people including myself could benefit from. Given the pandemic has probably helped many of us put on the few pounds, I think you have a great program, a 16 weeks program on Fitter Food. Would you mind talking me through what that 16 week transformation is?
Keris Marsden:
Basically, it's just an online program and what we do is you'll get a nutrition plan and recipes, and it starts off as an elimination diet where we suggest you take out things like all processed, refined foods initially, flowers and things like that, and focus back on things like meat, fish, vegetables, and legumes, and eggs. And then the next month you could start to add some foods back in. So you might want to then try having some dairy, you might want to try having things like protein powders as a functional food. So we kind of guide you through starting off with a really nutritious template, getting used to that, cooking your own food.
Keris Marsden:
Again, we do a check-in process, just because our experience has been having worked for a long time with people, some individuals just need that accountability. So knowing they're going to check in four weeks’ time and do some measurements, just looking at their body composition, helps them to kind of stay on track. But we also get them to assess their sleep, their stress, we talk a lot about body image issues as well, and try to really make sure people do this under the context with compassion towards their body, so they are appreciative of their body and not constantly berating how it looks and why it won't change those types of things. So body positivity is included.
Keris Marsden:
And then we get to that final maintenance phase, which is in the final month, which is where we ask people to really get some pleasure foods in there so that you can almost have a 80, 20 or 90, 10, depending on where they are on their journey. We've also got a membership site that we probably encourage people to look at more. And the reason being it's got quite a proactive community on Facebook in there. So this is called Fitter 365 and it has all the meal plans, it's got training, it's got videos from me just talking about a lot of what we've discussed, supplements and hormone health and things like that. The community is a big part of the support and accountability.
Keris Marsden:
You can often find when you go on that journey with your own health, it can be very isolating and lonely at first when you're not very well, especially with something like burnout, but then you actually find you can't hang out with some of the people that you would've been spending a lot of time with, maybe because they love going out to the pub and getting drunk on a Friday night and your body just won't let you do that anymore. What's interesting is you do develop new friendships through health and through health changes.
Keris Marsden:
And I met loads of people when I did get burn out. We haven't really talked about yoga, but my first introduction to yoga in my teacher training was actually with someone who was almost very anti- yoga. And he developed something called freestyle yoga, which was more about using yoga for strength and mobility and primal movements, so he was a big fan of doing handstands and locomotive work. And I love that because I was in that realm of strength, training kettle bells, and it really worked for me. But when I fell ill, all that went out the window and I went to a beautiful yoga studio and started doing much more restorative yin yoga, breath work. You find your yoga teachers, as I'm sure you know, and literally they could make me tingle and reduce my symptoms just by speaking. So I discovered this new element to yoga that was just really helpful, really beneficial.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Can you speak then to, how do you teach yoga now via your... Oh, I think you were talking about your membership site. How do you mix in your expertise with yoga, with personal training, in a way that feels easy for people to understand? Because one of the things I was chatting to my doctor about yesterday is that a lot of people don't have that much of an intimate relationship with their own body. And so how do you support them via an online program?
Keris Marsden:
It was the community that I met in the yoga studio that ended up many of them being real angels to me when I was run down, because it would just be lovely to have a coffee with somebody and talk through elements that I was really struggling with when you can't be the person that you want to be, the hard worker you, and there's just no partying. So when you can go into some yoga studios, health groups online, or guided meditation groups, you connect with people that are in a really similar position to you, and that can have a profound effect on your health. And it does keep you accountable to some of the things that, you need to be doing. So that kind of more relaxed form of yoga I generally did struggle to make time for in my life, but actually once I'd made some friends there and realized the benefit, the two things together would keep me going back and doing those things, getting that real nourishing effect of yoga.
Keris Marsden:
You should listen to him, he was on my podcast, actually, his name is Mark Freeth and he runs a company called Freestyle Yoga Project. And it's really interesting listening to his take on yoga because it appealed to me at the time in where I was. And I didn't want to learn Sanskrit, I didn't want to teach... I couldn't really engage with repetitive elements of yoga like sun salutation because I needed a lot of stimulus and variety. I'm different now for sure and I realize why that was at the time, I was hugely distracted. But because he didn't teach us breath work, he didn't teach us any of the traditional yoga language, I never felt like I could teach a typical yoga class.
Keris Marsden:
So when I did first start teaching yoga, the yoga studio I was going to for my kind of more relaxed stuff, they said, "Well, we need to want to teach core and strength, a stronger form of yoga." And I said, "Yeah, I can definitely do that." I started teaching in person and then with lockdown, moved online. We already had an online community, but I was doing videos for them more than anything, but we actually started to do a lot of Facebook lives, because people just wanted live content and help.
Keris Marsden:
And what I developed was something I call moga, which is a fusion of mobility and yoga. And part of that was because I don't want people to turn up and expect vinyasa or kundalini or hatha because it won't be like that. And I've kind of developed this fusion of mobility, which the routine is completely different every single time, but mobility, I'm just moving a lot more than maybe you were doing certain things. It's very much like a vinyasa flow, I'd probably say of any of the styles, and then I add sun salutation at the end and put the breath work in there. That's not to blow my own trumpet, but just more because I didn't want people to think that they were getting yoga when they weren't. And what we've done online... It was self protective more than anything. I thought if I call it moga, no one can say she's not a proper yoga teacher.
Keris Marsden:
But what we do online is we teach a combination of strength and hit and we have a timetable for our members and we do this live, but we've also encouraged them to do a moga session, and my partner just does proper mobility, which is very similar to what you might do at CrossFit or see just a mobility routine. So we really do emphasize the balance, because in lockdown we saw a lot of people get injured because there was the weight gain element, there was the stress, and people just went at it, maybe because they were furloughed and wanted, again, just something to do in their day. And many learned that hard way, your body just can't take that. So it's really important to do some of the gentle stuff, the movement, the breath work.
Keris Marsden:
And then I have a yoga therapist who comes in and she does much more of the breathing and really gentle yoga as well with the members, so she takes it down another gear. And it's interesting because you attract a certain audience probably with whatever energy you have and whatever vibe you have. And so some of them have struggled to understand how to sit still and breathe properly and only do a little bit of gentle movement. It doesn't feel right, they've not done anything. And so I'm often there in the background saying, "Trust me, this is exactly what your body needs."
Anne Muhlethaler:
Do you know what this is making me think of? There's also that misunderstanding that it's easy to sit in meditation. And I think that most people who've tried or who have a practice know that it's not. There's two things that are super major to remember, moving before you do any kind of formal seated meditation is really helpful. The best meditation I have is generally after exercise, I am so much more at home in my body and I feel so much more grounded. So I can see why having primed people with movement and mobility and a sense of connection with themselves, then they feel a lot more ready to go towards very gentle movement and more of an inward-focused practice.
Keris Marsden:
Definitely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'd like to ask you a few closing questions if that's okay?
Keris Marsden:
Yeah, of course.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I'd love to know about an act of kindness that has touched your life?
Keris Marsden:
Do you know I think I have to say I think I'm incredibly lucky in that because we've been around for a while on social media, I'm very honest, you did ask the question about what's been really helpful. And one of the things both me and my partner do is we constantly just document our own personal journey and we're very honest when we're struggling, when we're vulnerable, when we've had some mishaps, and I think people really appreciate that. But what's incredible is presents arrive from strangers in the post. And this has happened a few times and it's a tiny gesture, but it feels like it's a huge boost at the time when you're really questioning, "Can I do this? Should I even be here? Have I got the skillset? Have I got the knowledge? The confidence?" And I remember once getting a key ring from someone which just says, "Wishing you all the luck."
Keris Marsden:
And what they do is they tend to email our... We have a marketing manager and they email her, so they even make sure that we don't know it's coming. And I think this has just happened on just the right moments on several occasions. But when I actually had burnout, a friend of mine, she was actually a student of mine at the college, and then she was moving back to New Zealand and she was incredible in that as soon as I came home from Portugal very ill she got me in with a herbalist that she'd worked with and we'd check in with each other, she'd come over once a week and sit with me. And when, you know this, when you are really struggling, you retreat, but then you feel worse for it. So you're not having any interaction with anyone, but then you don't realize that might be what you need.
Keris Marsden:
And she'd come and sit with me. But when she'd left, she wrote me a card and I'll always remember the first line just being, "You, Keris Marsden are just something else." And it was just the way she'd written my name and it really made me think about my identity and what I'd lost sight of and all these kind of things. And she really put in there, "It's time to put yourself first." And I read it about 10 times, I think, over the next few weeks. Whenever I was struggling, I'd read the card again and it would just be, again, a little battery charger for me. So a couple of things there, but that card really did mean a lot.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thank you for sharing that. So what is your favorite word?
Keris Marsden:
That is a really hard question. I think it would be similar to yours in that it would be something... I'm torn between two.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Okay, go on.
Keris Marsden:
I was going to say peace first of all, or acceptance, it was another one I was thinking of. Because what leads us into a lot of trouble in life is not being able to find peace with a lot of things, things that go wrong, bad things that are going to happen, things that you're stuck with, how you look, all of these things. If you can't at some point find peace with them, you're constantly battling something and it has such a negative impact on your health and your choices in life, and your experience of life really, so I'm going to go with peace. There you go.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Beautiful. What song best represents you?
Keris Marsden:
Oh gosh. Another hard one.
Anne Muhlethaler:
They're hard, but they're fun.
Keris Marsden:
Yeah, they are. That's really hard. Oh, I know, I'd probably say... Do you know what's interesting, I'm running an online retreat for women at the moment, hormone retreat and I asked them to all list out the song that gets them on the dance floor. They listed some great songs, I ended up putting together a playlist, but I also decided to add to the playlist songs that I think every woman needs to hear. So there was some like Sia The Greatest, Lizzo's written some amazing songs just about-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, I love Lizzo.
Keris Marsden:
Loving your body. Yeah. So I've put lots of songs like that on there. And that Tears for Fears' Shout let it all out was on there, things that they're not doing. But one that I really loved was Robyn Dancing On Your Own, because that's again what I did as a teenager, that's what I forgot to do a lot as an adult, and that's what I started doing again to make myself feel better, so I'm going to go with that one, Robyn.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, gorgeous. Thank you. What or who did you want to be when you were a kid?
Keris Marsden:
Oh, that's easy. There's a quick story with that as well. When you're at school and you have careers meetings and things like that. And you speak to your tutors about what you want to do. And I remember being really lost and thinking, "Well, I love animals. So I'd like to be a veterinary nurse." But when I said that to my parents and to the teachers, they were like, "Well, that's silly." I remember my dad saying this, he was like, "You should aim to be a vet, not a veterinary nurse," but I'm never great with blood and gore and things like that, I was like, "No, no, I just want to stroke and look after the animals before and after I don't want to actually do it." So be a veterinary nurse and my dad put me off, he was like, "No."
Keris Marsden:
So I remember then thinking, "I'm just going to say lawyer, because it seems like an acceptable answer," and I quite liked watching LA Law at the time. But in my heart of hearts, when I really think about it, I would've absolutely loved to be Madonna's backing dancer because that's all I ever did was make up routines to Madonna songs. But I didn't want to be Madonna, I would like to be in the background.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Awesome. All three fantastic choices. You'll laugh if you listen to today I'm posting an episode with a wonderful yoga teacher based in London called Chris Magee. And I asked him that question and he said, "At first I thought I wanted to be a lawyer and then I realized it was too complicated and what I wanted is to play a lawyer on TV." So he became an actor.
Keris Marsden:
Oh, did he? Perfect.
Anne Muhlethaler:
What would you say to your younger self? If you could send yourself a message?
Keris Marsden:
Oh gosh. I think, "Breathe, believe in yourself," and, "It's all going to be okay." Very simple stuff.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Good. What is the best advice that you've ever been given?
Keris Marsden:
When I was making some difficult decisions before I even left and I was working in an office, I was in a completely different relationship, not even involved in health in any way other than I'd go for a run myself, and I knew something wasn't right and I really struggled to get the confidence to change it. And I met a friend at the gym, we'd go for long runs together and she'd always ask me this question, she'd go, "Watch your gut. Watch your gut." And essentially she was telling me, follow that gut instinct. And it was really powerful when I stopped and listened to it. But you can spend a lot of time ignoring your gut.
Keris Marsden:
And I remember watching Ed Stafford on a TV program visiting a lot of tribes. And one of the tribesman was saying, "We believe you have three brains in the body, you've got your heart, your gut and your brain, actual brain." And your heart and your gut know the score, they are so intuitive and that's why they react, so your heart rate can change, your heart can flutter, your gut can flip flop when you're experiencing an emotion, but we go with the brain because it kind of makes sense. But actually your brains are quite messy, they get invaded with lots of illogical thoughts and influences from other people. They're quite mammalian, they want to fit in with other aspects of society and expectations, so they don't always know what's good for you and the right decision. So again, a really long answer, but I think it was just follow your gut. She wouldn't have known any of this stuff, she was just very good at saying, "Watch your gut. Watch your gut." And so I think it's always really good to check in with that feeling.
Anne Muhlethaler:
100% in agreement. What book is next to your bed or on your desk?
Keris Marsden:
Oh, I'm so glad you asked me this. In lockdown, I've really struggled. One of the things I desperately wanted to get back when I was burnt out was reading fiction, because I wanted to escape at the end of the day and not be in my kind of world. And I had to train myself. If you've been really busy, your brain gets so distracted, it's really hard to do something like read for fiction. I could read for learning purposes, I could read for hours, but I struggled with that escapism, and so I trained myself to read again. But I posted in lockdown, to our members actually, and said, "I'm in this position where I'm reading six books because I'm either getting bored, or some of them are a little bit too sad and it's locked down and I don't need anymore sadness. Anyone get any recommendations?"
Keris Marsden:
And someone posted about a book called The Salt Path and I read the blurb and it was about a couple who essentially lose that house, so go through some financial stress and decide to go and walk the salt path in Devon and Cornwall. And she said, "Just trust me. You're going to love this." And I've absolutely loved every minute. It's the first book I've finished in lockdown. I've read many, halfway through. And every single night I was looking forward to reading it. And it's a true story, it's a beautiful story. There's a lot of nature in there because they're walking along the coast, so they see some incredible stuff, but incredible stuff happens to them. And again, it's that reminder of, I think we can all get stuck in a position of trying to control and think that we know the score, we know our body, we know the future, we can be fearful, we can think that we run the show half the time. And what's amazing about this story is they lose everything and they let go and they just go with life and they discover some amazing stuff.
Keris Marsden:
So I won't spoil it because I hope that people read it because I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I would actually recount it the next day. It was just me and my partner in lockdown, so we were running out things to talk about. We always have a lot [inaudible 01:18:37], but we're not seeing anyone, so it is getting a bit repetitive. And every morning I'd tell him what I read and he'd be like, "Tell me, what's happened next? Where are they now? What's happened?" And I'd recount it to him and one morning he cried, so that's how powerful a book it is, he just cried. So I either I'm a brilliant storyteller... But no, to be fair, it's an amazing story. And a big part of it is their relationship with each other and things like that. So it covers some really emotional stuff as well.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Sounds fantastic. I'm going to add it to my list. And then my final and favorite question is what brings you happiness?
Keris Marsden:
Oh gosh, it's so hard, there's so many things. My first answer is helping people and making a difference, but that can get me in trouble because I think what really makes me happy is my company, the people around me. So it can be Hamish, it can be my partner, my friends. And I'm really lucky, I think when you're working really hard, you don't make time for that stuff and you can see your health decline as a result of that, so that's kind of two answers.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think that with all of these, there's no right answer apart from what is special to you. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.
Keris Marsden:
Oh, it's been absolutely lovely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I will have to ask you for a follow up because I feel like there's a lot of questions about women's hormones that I didn't ask you. I want to know about what you think about fasting. So I'm going to let this be and also listen to your podcast and discover your work a little bit more and then I'll hopefully call on you again later this year, if that strikes your fancy?
Keris Marsden:
That'd be awesome. Of course. Anything [inaudible 01:20:22].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Cool. Well, thank you so much, Keris, this was absolutely wonderful. Give a cuddle to Hamish for me.
Keris Marsden:
I will do.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And have a lovely, wonderful rest of the day.
Keris Marsden:
And you. Thanks for having me.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks again to Keris for being my guest on the show today, you can find her online at fitterfood.com and on Instagram @fitterfood, where you'll also find details of the plans that she offers like the Fitter 365 membership, as well as tons of delicious recipes and workouts to get you moving. All links as usual will be included in the show notes. So that's it for this other episode of Out Of The Clouds. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you will join us again next time. Our theme music is by Conor Heffernan, artwork by Brian Ponto. Special thanks to Joel for editing and sound.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You can soon find all of my episodes and find out more about my projects at annevmuhlethaler.com. If you don't know how to spell it, that's also in the show notes. Sign up to receive updates on all of the cool things I'm doing, the website is almost ready to go live. You can also follow me @annvi on Instagram, that's A-N-N-V-I, or follow the show at @_outoftheclouds. If you can, I would love it if you would rate and review the show on iTunes, it does help other people find it. Until next time, be well, be safe, remember the hand washing, the mask, all of that good stuff.