There are serendipitous moments in life, particularly when two women who are equally passionate about storytelling and connection end up on a podcast together. In this episode, Anne Muhlethaler interviews author, advisor and self-professed hype woman Lisa Bragg.
Lisa starts by sharing her journey from TV news reporter to launching her business, MediaFace, in 2007, which pioneered what we now know as content for our digital world. She also offers thoughts on the challenges posed by growing up with Bragg as a last name.
That leads Anne to ask Lisa about the genesis for her book, “Bragging Rights,” as well as how she designed the research which underpins it. Lisa speaks about the importance of creating a safe environment for people to talk about their successes, either at home or at work, to support personal and professional growth. While some research out there advises women not to brag or celebrate their successes for fear of backlash, Lisa challenges the concept (and the research) and suggests that it’s time for us to change the culture and ‘sister up’.
She goes on to explain how taking an inventory of our personal values can be one of many exercises to explore meaningful self-promotion, highlighting that we are all the “CEO of our own life.”
The two women discuss that while purposeful self-promotion is important, it’s often challenging. Anne admits to barely being able to name any of her successes, and Lisa responds that ‘she is her book,’ meaning that she, too, has times where she goes back into her shell, waiting to be discovered instead of putting herself out there —and she wrote the book on it!
Lisa is clear about her mission to help others be seen and heard, and leaves listeners with this recommendation: Don't wait for others to give you opportunities, take them into your own hands, adding “celebrate your successes and don't tear down others for their achievements.”
A powerful conversation with a compelling guest. Happy listening!
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Selected links from episode:
You can find out more about Lisa at LisaBragg.com
@lisabragg #braggingrights or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ThatLisaBragg/
On LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisabragg
More about the book Bragging Rights here: https://www.lisabragg.com/book
Lisa's favorite book : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Green_Gables
The song Lisa chose: It Could Have Been Me, by the Struts
The Out of the Clouds Spotify compiled playlist: 'The song that best represent me'
And her challenging climb of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelback_Mountain
Out of the Clouds - Lisa Bragg
Anne V Muhlethaler: Hi, hello, bonjour, and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. And I'm your host, Anne V Muhlethaler. Today, my guest is Lisa Bragg, the author of Bragging Rights. Lisa and I had the pleasure to come across each other a year ago when we both attended TED in Vancouver.
And we later on found that we have a friend in common. In our conversation, Lisa shares her journey from being a TV news broadcaster to becoming the founder of a content company and becoming an author and a speaker. She explained how she found her vocation early on and discovered that her mission is to help people be seen and heard.
Bien sûr, of course, we expand on the challenges it was for her to have the last name Bragg, which led her early on to explore this stigma. around bragging. Now what you're going to pick up on quite quickly in this conversation is that I really enjoyed reading Lisa's book. It was a real discovery for me, partly because, and this may sound weird because I have a podcast, but I don't love talking about myself and I certainly don't love to brag.
So I asked Lisa to tell me how she came to write this book and the research that became the foundation for Bragging Rights. She explains to me how we tend to self deprecate and talk about failures. because it is culturally hard for us to talk about our successes. This leads us to ponder on the need to change the culture and to sister up.
One of my favorite takeaways from this conversation is how people want to share in our joy and that when we don't share, they're disappointed. So the overall advice you're going to be getting from this is that we should all jump on the bandwagon and explore our bragging repertoire, but to brag with purpose.
Maybe with the help of a brag book. Overall, I think this is almost like a relearning for me, and I think many of you when you'll listen to Lisa, to realize that bragging is indeed a right, that we should not wait for others to give us opportunities, that we need to take them into our own hands and celebrate our successes.
This is a really rich conversation, and I hope that you will feel motivated to explore Lisa's book. I'll share all the relevant links to her work. But now, without further ado, I give you my conversation with Lisa Bragg. All right. So Lisa, welcome to Out of the Clouds. I'm so glad that we're together today.
Thank you for having me. I already feel like we're such kindred spirits, so this is going to be a lot of fun. I think so too. And I connected with Andrea. About a month ago, and she said, Oh my God, I can't believe you're going to be interviewing Lisa because you're such kindred
Lisa Bragg: spirits. It's so funny how things work, though, because we have Andrea, Dr.
Andrea Wojnicki, who's a great friend of ours. And then we also have the experience of being at TED's together. So it's like all these things. We really needed to meet. So yeah, and we are
Anne V Muhlethaler: on that amazing WhatsApp group. So I'm really excited to, to dig into your story for many reasons, especially because we're such kindred spirits.
And as you may have heard in the podcast before, what I love to do is to start by asking my guests to tell their story, which I know can feel very broad, but essentially it's because I like to find out about who you are, who you used to be as well as a kid, as a teenager, what you dreamt of. Understand the, the journey that got you to become who you are today.
So if that's okay, Lisa, would you tell me, tell us your story?
Lisa Bragg: Yeah. So my last name is Bragg and I think that was really formational, foundational for me where when I was 13, 14 years old, the age my daughter is now, I really felt when I would talk about my successes, people would roll their eyes and say, you're going to brag about it.
And I'm one of those, I want the gold stars. I want 10 out of 10. I was that student. And so I felt really young that I had to hide my successes and I couldn't be who I was because I couldn't talk about it and couldn't share that. People didn't want to know where they were. They would say things and so I started to hide myself young and interestingly enough, though, my parents watched a lot of TV news a lot so they would have it on day and night.
You know, they were really good people and very good people. Yeah. Working class, so watching the news felt, made them feel part of the community, made them feel knowledgeable, so I decided very young to become a TV news broadcaster, so I was a journalist, I would go around and ask people, you know, to be on my shows and to tell me their story, and so I think very young too, I realized one of my missions was to help people to be seen and heard, because my parents weren't people who were going to be seen and heard, and people around me weren't being seen and heard, I'd go up to people and when I was a journalist, so it was called a videographer and because technology was changing so much, I would be my own camera operator and the reporter at the same time.
And so I'd go up to people with this gigantic camera. It was huge. And my microphone and I'd interview them. So I didn't like it at the time because I'd see all the people other people come in all the reporters They'd be so quaffed and they'd have a team of people and i'd be by myself But what it allowed me to do was learn so many skills That helped me be a leader and usher in as we came in more and more into this digital age But what it also helped me to do was have this one to one time with people who I thought were experts Who were often ignored or ignored?
Or who weren't the people who would offer themselves up to be on camera. And I'd say, Hey, I think you should be my expert for the story. And so often people, especially women would say, Oh no, not me. Go down the hall to John or Steve. They've done it before. But because I was by myself so many times, people would say.
Oh, maybe. And there'd be a door open with that. I'd say, Oh, well, let me help you. I can do some media training. I want you to look good. And so I would do this with people. And then I get thank you notes saying thank you so much for giving me the opportunity because then I went on to get another one or then I'd see them get a new job and more and more opportunities because of that.
And just giving that opportunity. But meanwhile, for me, they're giving me such a gift because I was always I'm a little bit of a contrarian The journalism is a pack. If you ever see, you'll see one paper has almost the same quotes as the next paper and same with television news. And so I'd always try to find, they would zig and I would zag.
So I'd find those people that were the hidden gems. And then I would, I would tell their stories and help them to tell their stories. So there's something to all of that, that really resonated with me. And then I started, you know, In 2007, which seems like yesterday and then a whole lifetime ago, I started one of Canada's first content companies before we knew what content was.
So doing video animation and e learning for corporate organizations and governments.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah. That was early. That's
Lisa Bragg: amazing. You did e learning as well. Yeah. So we were doing a lot of work with governments, helping them to get their subject matter experts online and sharing their knowledge. So knowledge mobilization.
Was a big thing to get it out there to their teams, to people out in the public, especially things as early as talking about vaccinations or child health care for well being for infants. And so all those kinds of things that people need to know, but it wasn't really being produced en masse and. The DVDs are starting to become our kick.
We did DVDs, but we are really in that transition phase of how do you really get it online so it's sent out on mass and that we can speak to the audience. And so that's where my journalism really thinking about the audience and what the audience needs really helps to help to bridge all of that and to get it online.
And also, I do love technology, even though sometimes the gremlins make me Yeah. But I was able to really think through it and I think that's thanks to the fact that I was one of those early videographers having to understand technology, make it work by myself because I didn't necessarily have anyone to lean on.
So all of that ended up being such a bonus, a blessing, a gift in the end that you can only see after you're through being in the trenches and trudging through it all that it's, okay, that's why I had to learn those lessons and, and grow from it.
Anne V Muhlethaler: What a beautiful story.
Lisa Bragg: Thank
Anne V Muhlethaler: you. It's, I appreciate you telling me about not just who you were serving as a journalist because you were looking for the special gems that weren't seen and heard, but how that, you know, was.
Reflecting on, on, on why and that connection with your parents. There's a part of me that wants to ask you, what did it feel like having had that young girl's dream to become a TV anchor, a journalist? And what was it like the day that you ended up an anchor and on TV yourself?
Lisa Bragg: That's a great question. I think I was leading up to it for so long.
And I think this is a bit of a challenge with me is I get it. And then I'm onto the next thing. So it's like, what else can I do? Can I go to another station and do another level of it? Can I have a wider audience? Can I get those harder interviews? And so I'm always one of those, I guess I'm a striver. The goalposts always move with me.
So good and bad, bad and good. So I'm always at the next level. But the very first, uh, station I got to anchor at was a very small station in Northern Canada, in Northern Ontario. And it was instantly a celebrity because it was such a small town. so weird to go from being a student and desperately trying to get my first job to then being on the news.
And teenagers at the local mall said, Oh, you're the newslady. And I was like, lady, I was like, just, you know, just a few years older than them just out of school and having them say that to me. So it was really interesting to move from wanting it. To then having it and then how do I deal with it and how do I grow with it and how do I really serve the communities that I'm meant to serve?
So I never went to my head like it's, it's small, you know, some people, even if the smallest amount of fame, fame doesn't make you rich. Fame doesn't make you the person that you need to be and of service. It was really, how do I then reach more people? And make sure that more good things are going to the heads, hearts, and minds of people and their souls.
How do we get it so it's not just, here's the news of the day, and really, I want people to take action when they heard my stories. I wanted them to move, be moved, to think, to tell other people the stories, to take action because of my stories, and not just, oh, wasn't that nice, and onto the next channel, or flipping the channel.
I always wanted to make sure that people Got my message and it wasn't just, I'm going to click
Anne V Muhlethaler: it off. Thank you so much for sharing that. As you're telling me your story, this makes me travel back in time because my household was also very news heavy, both radio and TV. And for anyone who's grown up watching French or Swiss news, there are some very distinct characters on the, the lunchtime or the evening news.
And you can almost define. Or just describe a family, depending on who they watch and the impact that those newscasters has had on our lives. I only can see it, as you said, with perspective, but it's, I feel very fondly towards that. Anyways, so it's funny, I haven't watched TV news for a long time. I think that I've disconnected from watching TV news way before the pandemic.
I think because I lived in the U. S. for a bit, it felt like it was too out ever present. There was just too many headlines all the time. So I just basically blocked it right off. Um, and now I consume it through radio and podcasts.
Lisa Bragg: Yeah, me too. I left news and I needed a break from it. And interesting too, that you said how the people are characters.
In Canada, where I live for a long time, you weren't Yes, you gave your personality, especially if you're anchoring and have banter and you'd vamp and things like that between the different people who are on the set. But when you're a reporter or videographer, you were really told and really, as a person, I really tried to keep my bias out of things.
And your bias obviously always comes through no matter what, but you really honing in and making sure that things were not just what my background and my perspective. But how does my. background and perspective changed the lens of the story. I was always aware of that, and it was also part of I wasn't supposed to be part of the story, and it was in that era where you still were removed as a journalist, and now I think we see more and more people are becoming much more columnists.
Their way is more personality infused than what it was even in my day, and so I think it's different. I really Had to learn after journalism not to hide myself and not to hide my opinions and for me to have a point of view where a news. I really tried not to have a point of view or not articulate a point of view.
And then as I move through owning a content company and now as an author and speaker, I have to have a point of view. I have to own my I P. It's really what I'm selling. And so it's been a journey of that. But for news, I can't watch it anymore. I'm watching for so many different levels too. Uh, I think it's just a challenge with the headlines and what people are serving up.
It's definitely listening to podcasts, not being oblivious, of course. I'm aware of the headlines, but it's a headline glance and not going in depth like I used to and really wanting to know all the news. I was a bit of a know it all. I wanted to know everything about everything. And now I'm really getting more and more comfortable with saying, I don't know.
I don't know. And sometimes I want to find out. I don't know, but I'll find out about that. But other times, I don't know. And I'm okay with that. Definitely okay. That's fantastic.
Anne V Muhlethaler: So you hinted at it before, but one of the questions I wanted to ask you is what is it like to live with the last name Bragg?
Lisa Bragg: Yeah, it's when your German teacher says, Oh, you know, brag and it's a verb and it's ha ha ha ha. It's like one of those kind of things and different, different people make fun of it and that's okay. But it does make you understand how my success when we talk about success, because brag means to talk about one's success with pride.
And as I give in the book, the reframe is pride also means justified self love. But when it's your last name, and so people come right away with a quip about it, and I'm okay if you make the quip, it's okay. But it became something early on that success matters to other people, and it's not always a good thing.
And I, that made me very curious, and it made me lean in to why does that matter to other people? I had actually somebody who said I should change my name in broadcasting and then other people were like, no, why would you do that to have a generic name in Canada, like Smith or something like that. But now, of course, we love all the beautiful last names that we're bringing in such a mosaic society that we have.
But it's a challenge. It was a challenge to say, do I want to be this kind of cookie cutter person or do I want to stand out? So most people said, keep the last name. But there were people who were being told to change. So I'm like, it was conflict with it. And it's part of identity and who you are now.
Again, looking back, Red Thread. It was something that I knew was building up in me and understanding why bragging, self promotion, why does it matter to other people so much? And why do so many of us hide from it and feel that the word brag and bragging is icky? And that's what I found in my international research that I did, that it was icky.
And I'm like, why is my last name icky? So I want to liberate it from being icky for all of us.
Anne V Muhlethaler: It means a few other things, right? I remember there was another language, a Nordic language, where brag had a beautiful meaning. What was it?
Lisa Bragg: In several languages, actually, it meant shine, shimmer, bravery, things like that.
And so that was, I think it's like 1355, but it's very early. That we had it and it was when people would talk about their successes coming out of having a triumph against others in some sort of battle. And so they would tell their stories. And so that's where it was. Also with the Northern Lights, it would be shine and shimmer.
And I thought that was really beautiful that we would tell success stories and that it was a beautiful thing, a thing to be celebrated. It's bravery. They went out there and they did these things. And they told us the stories and it's bravery. They're telling us the moments that matter. What happened? And now we, then we got into this factory era where don't talk about your successes.
Put your head down, do good work. And eventually someone will notice you or bragging violates modesty norms. And if you were that good, your work would speak for itself. And that's not the way the world was. And that's not the way the world is today. So we might have had this factory era where it was okay.
And also when we were, most of us were on farms for a long time in an agricultural societies, we didn't need to talk about our successes. Our grandmothers, our nonas, our aunties, all the people around us would know our successes and strengths and say, okay, yes, Ann should definitely do that because she is very good at it.
And do not let Lisa anywhere near that because it will help. Blow up. So we knew that because we had such we had our kin surrounding us. But nowadays, do you live close to everyone who's going to be your cheerleader? And also a lot of our family, my family, they don't understand the knowledge economy. They don't understand it.
Friends and family, they're starting to get it. Other friends, but the knowledge economy when you're selling your own IP or you're working for a corporation where it's really on the computer, people don't see the finished product like we did when we were piecemeal workers and doing those kind of jobs.
So they couldn't see it. It's all up here. So we're on, on all this, the digital, they're listening to it. And so how do we talk about our successes and let the world know how we're here to serve if we're not allowed to talk about, not allowed to brag and not allowed to self promote. It, it's not the way the world works, but we're left with this hangover of the factory era norms and values.
And so that's the challenge that we live in. And that's why so many people report that bragging is icky. Because we're in this conundrum time of where we are.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah, it's fascinating because I think that a lot of people also equate self promotion with selling themselves. And of course, it's always easier to sell something outside of yourself, right?
Rather than selling something that's literally part of you. And I remember only a couple of weeks ago hearing a friend say about this amazing art director. And She's going out on her own, she's really worried, she's not in an agency, she has to sell herself, she hates it. And she hasn't even started, right?
We get so apprehensive, we bring on a ton of pressure on ourselves, I tried to reframe it for her friend and said, but think of it this way. If she doesn't talk about herself, how will the people who need her to find her? Because she's doing this work for a reason, and some people need her help.
Lisa Bragg: They need her help.
And also it's a disservice to anyone. So this is another reframe. It's a disservice because then they're going to go to meet the mediocre person who's doing it, and they won't be able to find her. So the reframe is to, yes, it's hard to talk about yourself. It's so easy to talk about others. And I do talk about that in the book, When we talk about ourselves, make it of, this is how I'm of service to the world.
So when I tell people, here's how I'm meant to serve, that's a service, that's giving them a gift. And so that's the reframe of it instead of thinking, oh, it's so yucky to sell myself, but it's a disservice to let them go to that mediocre person down the hall. Who doesn't deserve and won't serve them the way you do.
So being of service to the world is really one of the foundational pillars of my book. How we are of service really matters.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah. I really connected to this message throughout the book and in the interviews that I've read or listened to with you. Now, I'd love to go back in time and ask you, at which point did you decide to write this book?
What was that process like?
Lisa Bragg: I feel like the book kept calling to me. I, you know what, I don't think I ever said I was going to write a book. I was going to write a book. I was, it was not one of those bucket list items. I think what happened was, I started having more and more friends who were writing books, so I think that was the, a little bit, but it just didn't stop.
My curiosity just kept going on it, and I'm like, what is the container that's gonna help me to really refine and think about it? And so that's where I thought a book would be the container. I was doing research and thinking about it for a while, and then I offered a course just to say, Okay. Is this something, alpha testing it, are people curious, what is it about, and then I had a chance at TED Women to do a two minute speech, and they counted as still a TED Talk, it's not available anywhere, but it was really about, we had heard all these great people talk, and tell us their stories, and call us to action.
But my thing was the theme was what now and I was like, what now are we going to cheerlead and champion each other? Are we going to still stand and say, here's how I'm meant to serve? And so that two minute talk that I gave challenging people to allow people to talk about their successes. So brag and not to feel the tall poppy.
So tall poppy syndrome is when we cut people down for being successful or talking about their successes. We like to cut people down and say, Oh, who does she think she is? Or what will they say when you say those things? So I challenged the audience. And when I did that, people came up to me and said, there's something to what you're saying.
And so they encouraged me to say, okay, what is this going to be? And how is it going to serve the world? And so that's where I thought a book would be the easiest, most economical for people to access my thinking too. And I didn't want it to just be a story of. And one, a white woman from Canada. Is it just Canadians?
I wanted to have a broader international appeal. And I was really curious, is it just me? Is it how we're brought up to pass the mic, to be number three, all those kinds of things. Cause you don't want to be number one or number two. Number three is a very safe position and right. That's not the way you serve the world though.
So how do I fit it in? And so that's where I needed to conduct research and make it something I think also writing a book, it makes you have deadlines. I had deliverables to publishers, so I had to get things done to my editing team. I had to get it done and I didn't want it to wait and languish. So that was really important to me because I know it's timely and With the research, so many people need this book and I'm just the vessel for it.
I think my last name being a journalist and owning a content company, it just all, the credibility is there. I'm going to stand in that and say the credibility is there.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah, yeah. And what I'm hearing, which is giving me a little bit of shivers since the beginning of, of, of our conversation is that you have been empowering other people to tell their stories.
This has been. Part of the meaning and the purpose of your life beyond being a journalist. And so I think that here you're giving keys to people to continue this work, to evolve, to stand in this work. And I want to transition here because There was one particular thing that I heard in one of your interviews, which I really liked, and I just want to reemphasize this, and you've said it, but you were saying bragging is about celebrating and sharing our successes.
This is what bragging meant in the 1400s, when people came back from battle and were sharing their successes. And And I think it can be very hard to even remember our successes. I was trying to think of mine the other day and I'm, God, I'm embarrassed to say, I couldn't think of anything for about two minutes.
My mind actually went completely blank as if there was just nothing I had done at all, as if I'd been idle for two years. And also one of my best friends who also has a podcast, she works in the pharmaceutical markets. She's fascinated by the notion of failure. And she's particularly enamored with a podcast called How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, which is an excellent podcast.
But I was thinking how refreshing it is to talk about our successes. Now, I'd love to hear Your point of view on why do we focus so much on failure and forget to brag?
Lisa Bragg: There's so much I wanted to respond to and all of what you just said. So thank you for We have time. When you gave me that compliment, I really gave me shivers.
So I appreciate that. I think we so quickly go to failures. Because we think we can fix things fast and knowing our failures. Oh, we can fix that. I think it's easier for us to go to failures because so many of us are taught self deprecation. We are taught to talk about when you give a compliment, then I'm supposed to say all the things that went wrong.
And it's so funny how many cultures resonate with that or oh, You like my shirt? Oh, it's just this old thing. You know, it was on sale or like those kind of like we so quick to self deprecate. And I think that's where we talk about failure so fast because talking about successes is is culturally hard for us.
And it's only supposed to be the select people that we celebrate successes. You know, it's the CEO, it's the athlete, it's the, uh, Hollywood star or local celebrities, like they can talk about successes, but not for the rest of us. So unless you're way up here, you're not supposed to talk about success. And that's really wrong.
I think failure is just an easier way. It's people will resonate more saying, here's all the ways I failed too, but it keeps us low. It doesn't give us the roadmap to move ahead. So why do we do that? It's an old safety mechanism to be part of the same social group over and over again. But nowadays we're all over the place.
So yes, you can have your safe social group, but then you also need to be talking about your successes so you can get ahead. There's so many of us now too. So when you have all these people, Especially because we're on the internet, we're 8 billion or whatever we are. How do we then let people know how we're here to serve, how we're distinct, how we're remarkable?
How do we let them know that? And less, and for us staying in our safe social circles. So that's where we need to talk about, yes, we need to talk about failures because we need to fix things. But if you don't make an environment that's psychologically safe for people to also talk about their successes, they're not going to feel that they're able to move ahead or to get that promotion or to tell you what's wrong if they don't feel safe talking about their own successes.
And we're also taught so often to give everything to the team. So then that's meaning we're mostly our corporations, our companies are made up of mediocre people and sorry, but we are because we're not allowing those people who are really successful to talk about success and to show us the way even more stay with the group.
Don't don't try to show that you're better. Don't show us the way there's yontal oven. It's a it's in Scandinavian countries. And it's 10 laws. I'm using felt the air quotation marks because they're not really but it's social conditioning of you shall not think you're better than us. You shall not tell us anything that you that we will think that you think you're better than us.
And people in Norway wanted to die. But other people, it's part of calm. The challenge, the calm, the low gum, the Is that as we move to more entrepreneurial societies, as we are global, we're mixing more, what has come to you is not come to me as an entrepreneur. I need to talk about my successes. So more people will come to me.
So it's all these layers. But to get back to the failure point, people like to talk about be negative and stay in the negativity instead of always having the positive. And I'm not always trying to be Pollyanna. We need to fix things, but we also need to point the way to a better future. There's a lot to unpack in that.
Anne V Muhlethaler: For sure. Yeah, it's, as you reflect about these sort of Nordic rules, quote unquote, it made me come back to reflect on some of the notions that I read in your book. There is cultural conditioning for sure, and there's also big cultural differences. And I think you've made that point very clear. A few years ago when I started, um, developing my online career, let's say, I ended up spending a lot of time in large zoom rooms, sometimes with three, four or 500 people way before the pandemic.
And there were a lot of North Americans, Australians, and there'd be a peppering of Europeans and other nationalities. And I noticed some very different behaviors. I didn't need to be conducting research. I had my own little mini experiential knowledge that just showed me how little most of us in Europe will put our hands up compared to all of the Americans and the Australians and the South Africans in particular.
And then within Europe, I think that we're also conditioned slightly differently if you're a man or a woman. And I'm saying this because There was a joke in one of the interviews I, I heard that this book was not just for Canadians because I know you're very apologetic. I hear a lot of American chat shows make fun of Canadians.
And I thought, no, the Swiss could definitely benefit from reading your book, Lisa. So. This brings me to a question about the research because I thought that was just such an interesting premise of the genesis of your book. How did you come about creating it and where did you find your research participants?
Lisa Bragg: Yeah, going on the research journey as a journalist, research was always important to me, but then I was even fueled further, and this is controversial. I love, I do, and appreciate Adam Grant. He's a prolific writer in New York Times. Oh, I'm so glad you're bringing this up because this was book, this was earmarked in
Anne V Muhlethaler: my questions.
Lisa Bragg: He has so many great things. But one thing he says I totally disagree with and it gave me fuel for the book because he says something like bragging violates modesty norms and politeness. And if you were that good, your work would speak for itself, something like that. And usually when I give that in workshops and speeches that I'm doing, I see a lot of eye rolling.
If your work were that good, it would speak for itself. So I had a chance during the pandemic to ask him a question. It was one of those. Zoom chats very early on as I had to put it into the, the question box, but I asked him like, do you still stand by that, especially for the pandemic where we knew even very early on that women were really having challenge with it.
They're calling it the she recession and things like that, because women were being pulled out of the workforce and I had to ask him, I said, do you still stand by that, especially for indigenous women, black women of color, people who are a range of people, especially women. Do you still stand by that? And he said, yes, because it's complicated.
The research shows, yada, yada, yada, women are penalized, but the research shows, and when he said that, I made me more curious to go on, what is this research? And so he did post a little while later, like these research surveys. So it was a gift to me because he posted, here's what research says. So I decided to go further and do a literature review.
What is this research? What is behind the headlines that we're seeing in these business periodicals that he pointed to? And I found that a lot of the research was done. on American university students. So these are people who are 20, 21 years old in the U. S. And I found that their sample sizes were also extremely low, so 20, 30 people.
So when we hear all these things, bragging is, is bad, it violates, like we're, we know some of it culturally, but also when it's reinforced by these studies, what is that saying? And so that's where I got fuel. When you're 20 and 21 years old, often too, you really want to fit in. It's very important to fit in.
And so when I had a chance to partner with a university in the U. S. to do my research, and they did reinforce it. Very bad bragging. And so that's where I really needed to make sure that my Research was not just North American centric and also of that age, it needed to be global. And so I put it online, I reached out to all the different groups that I'm a part of.
I'm fortunate to be involved with lots of different things and said, here's the research. I made sure that it was reviewed by other people who do in depth qualitative and quantitative research and I put it out and I didn't make it hard. I made it as a Google form. It's still live today if you want to link it in the show notes, but I wanted to get out This body of, of research from different people all over the world.
And so while the intersectionality of it was very interesting, it's not in depth enough yet. So it was 400, 500 people that gave me the research that was able to inform the book and it's still open today, but I found it was really interesting to see the cross thinking that everyone thought it was just their culture or just their family and the stories that.
People told and how many people also volunteered to be part of further questions. So, and the qualitative part and me interviewing them, so many generous people. So I really understood too, that it's not just. Our cultural nuances that play a part. It's also our socio economic. So if someone is from a lower socio economic class, they feel less inclined to talk about their successes because they're taught to often play within the rules and the penalties for leaving the rules are Are ever so greater.
And so we can see that when people are arrested or, you know, they don't, they want to be real followers because the penalties are too great. And it's so much easier to just follow the rules. And so many of us as women too, we know how to follow the rules as little girls were taught how to get those good grades.
Here are the rules. Here's the rubric. Here's what you do. And then when we go into the world of work, We're not given the same set of roles and that then it becomes much more of a gendered comment where a lot of women do Feel that there are challenges with bragging and self promotion So that's the journey of it all and so the research just fascinating and I feel like I should put the all the information through AI to see what else it comes up with that I didn't even see.
And that the people helping me with the research wouldn't have seen, I think there's still something more to glean from it, especially as more people give me their input into it.
Anne V Muhlethaler: That's fascinating. I'm so glad I asked that question. And thank you for bringing up that Adam Grant quote, which I found just in case anybody has or wants to get the book, it's on page 41.
And I loved your following paragraph when you talk about the risks. And the backlash potential to women speaking up and self promoting, but also how important you said was the idea of confronting the current social rules and making change happen. Isn't it time?
Lisa Bragg: We can't wait. And so to Adam Grant's point, it's too risky.
And a lot of people did say, yes, there is a risk. But that's where. Who's going to go first? Who's going to take these steps? Unfortunately, I think it's our time. We can't wait for the next generation. I think it's also that we need to sister up. We need to support each other. So that's where when we see somebody celebrating their successes and talking about it, instead of putting them down.
Realizing if we're feeling jealous, why is that? But we're also celebrating them and not tearing other people down. And I think that's where we need to change the culture. And the book does go into that. Chapter 13 has a lot of ideas for leaders on how to help their team to brag and self promote in a way that is for an organization very healthy, that you can attract more team players from it, that you can have, see who your real potentials are instead of picking those people that like to schmooze with you.
Helping them to be seen and be heard is the strength of a really good leader. So I was
Anne V Muhlethaler: like, Oh, I want to tell you something. Have you started book clubs yet? No. I should? You should. Okay. Especially with young women, because you were saying, you know, we need to do this now. It's not to be left for the next generation.
I mean, I can just about imagine if a group of girlfriends in high school or university start a book club and learn together about it. Yeah. Yeah. All of these concepts, learning how to tell their story. And there are a lot of exercises and tips in the book. So much. It's just, there's a lot. It's almost too much.
No, no. I mean, there's so much good stuff that I think that it could be very supportive to do this in a group. I think book clubs could be the future. So just pitching you a
Lisa Bragg: great suggestion because I think that's where people gather. So I'm going to make a book club sheet to help them book clubs. I will put that out there and I will send it to you when it's done.
Because I think that's if somebody can have a guided experience through that, I think it's, um, really something for people to go through together because as the activities are, there's a like to consider piece because we don't do enough self reflection, there's a to do an easy task, something that you can action upon right away and to share.
And that's because I didn't want this to be. just you trying to work through this, you're already awesome. It's really how do we then collectively do something and also how do we share this information from the book so that other people can learn from it and to go further, farther, faster together instead of it just being me trying to trudge along this lonely path.
of this knowledge economy that we can have. It can be lonely. And so when we share our knowledge, just more good things come from it.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I agree. And I know that being a coach and writing a workbook myself, oftentimes people will read something and stop at the exercise and go, I'll do that later. And I think accountability.
Yeah, me too. But accountability can go a long way. Now there's one concept in the book that I think was in that chapter 13, which I loved. It's a term that I don't believe I've ever come across before. And yet I understand it. It's Freud and Freude from German. In Buddhism, it's called sympathetic joy, mudita.
But it's something that I think could really, it could be. It touches on that sort of sistering up that you were talking about. Could you tell me more about this?
Lisa Bragg: Yeah. Sistering up though, first of all, is that it's actually a construction term. It's where when there's a choice, no, it's so there's floorboards or something like that, that aren't even aren't strong.
So we put something else below it or with it to make it stronger. And so that when we have someone who is not as strong as we are, we stand up and say, I'm going to support this person in some way. So sistering up. And it's, I'm surprised it's not used more in our everyday language with coaching and leadership, but it's maybe because it's a feminine, I don't know, but it's a construction term to support each other.
I
Anne V Muhlethaler: believe that's the reason why we don't use it as much. Yeah.
Lisa Bragg: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's where we need to sister up, but it's also that people want to share in your joy. I think I always forget it. What is this? Schadenfreude? Is that the shade? Thank you. We're so quick to do that. Again, the negative, the failure, but when we want to share in somebody's joy, and it's a frame for it is made up to people don't go and look in your German dictionaries.
These are made up terms, but it's about people want to share in your joy. And when you don't share, it's when you don't talk about your successes. And then five years later, your friend finds out that you won this award. And it's like, why didn't you tell us? And people are disappointed. When you don't tell them your successes.
And so that's why we need to share our joy that other people want to actually actively. We don't think they do, but they actively want to have that. And that's what I found in the research was 85 percent of people want to hear you brag. And it was 12 percent of people. Don't. And then 3 percent of people would turn around and brag about themselves.
So who cares about the 12 percent like, no problem, but 85 percent of people want to hear your success stories and so that's where it comes in. People want to share in the joy and that's part of all of that chapter is really that we have to think that people do want to hear it and we're conditioned to think that they just want to hear about our failures or not hear about it at all.
They do want to hear it. So that was really exciting.
Anne V Muhlethaler: That is. So one of the things that you explain beautifully in the book is that one of the reframes about bragging is to brag with purpose. Yeah. Can you tell me about that?
Lisa Bragg: So many of us know those parents that will just list off if you're an aunt or mom or whatever, the parent in the playground who just talks about all the milestone markers, her son's already met and beyond.
Oh my goodness. We don't want to all of a sudden bring out our whole. Luggage of all the awesomeness that we have all at once. We need to be intentional about it. What's the purpose? Why do you want to let that person know or those people know about your successes? Because you don't need to talk about all of them all at once.
You can unfold it slowly over time. So it's really being intentional and having a point of view. Where do you want to go? And I think that's really the point is to market to where you want to go in the future. So where do you want to go? We that's what we're making those brags being intentional about the successes you want to share is telling your audiences and that could be your social media audiences, but it could also be your potential clients.
It could be your current leader. Where I want to go. And so when we brag, we're being strategic about saying, here's what I've already done my successes. But I'm also talking about the future self and where I want to be. And I'm betting on me and the future me, the promise of me. And so letting people know that intention along the way, but it's not coming up and saying, Here's all the million things I did.
How awesome I am. We all get tired of that. It needs to have intention about why you want to say that because it's going to lead you to your future self and your future. You will then support it. Be excited about all the work that you've already done because you're leading people. You're giving them. You know, breadcrumbs isn't the word, but you're giving them those moments that matter along the way.
Be intentional and strategic about it, and then people won't even think that you're, it's not that ickiness of boastfulness that we think of that person's, it's actually self aggrandizement that we think of. When people get too verbose with all of it, that puffery, that ickiness, that I'm better than you, self aggrandizement is also that only one person can win.
And that's not what this is about. And then we get the words confused. Bragging is really talking about your successes with pride, and pride also means self love. But self aggrandizement is that, that ickiness that we feel when we see it.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah, the word purpose, when I was Thinking about this question yesterday, I noticed as well that the theme of values came up a number of times.
And it's interesting because I think that a lot of people, individuals, do not connect to this idea of purpose or values as something that they work for themselves. It's something that we know is part of the playbook as you build a business or as entrepreneurs would consider. But I guess that's some of the themes that I saw come up.
And the strategies that you put out are very thoughtful, intentional, I want to almost call them mechanics. There are things that help people build something tangible. So values being something that I'm very passionate about. Would you tell us perhaps why values are helpful in helping people talk about their successes?
Lisa Bragg: I was just on a show yesterday and somebody said, it seems cliche to talk about values. And I think it's like the cliche part means because it's been done, people have talked about it. But the problem is it still needs to be done. People haven't done the hard work of actually analyzing their values and understanding them.
So when they said that to me, I was like going to get, just get up and say, we need to talk about values more because values also shift in this world that we're in today. And I think people need to Own their value even more. What is, what are your values? Because now we're seeing companies aren't necessarily aligning with us.
And so then your team, if the company doesn't align with my personal values, then do I really want to put that much effort into it? So we're seeing more and more people, especially employees say here, I want to go to a company that I align with. I only want to clients that align with my values. There's so many of us now.
So if we don't align, we shouldn't, not going to be the right fit. So we shouldn't be working together. And so that's why I really believe like you do getting clear on your values and then doing it again and doing it again and not just taking that global approach to it or hearing somebody else's values.
That's like the values on the wall for a corporation. Are they really walking the walk or is it just something that they did with somebody and they didn't do it deep enough and they're not referring to it and reflecting on it enough. And that's where do having values exercise in my book was really important because I want people to really.
Go back if you've already done it. Have you done it only as part of an organization? Have you done it for yourself? And that's where ceos How I help them connect to my work You've done it as part of your organization, but have you done it? You are the ceo of your life Have you done your own values work?
Do you know where your values are because that will also indicate where you're going to go in the future So I think it's really important for all of us to reflect All the time. Maybe not at the New Year, where everyone thinks we should do it, but whenever you should set it in your calendar. Do I still align with these values?
Because then they inform your point of view. And when you have a point of view, people will then lean in and listen and want to know more from you. So many of us don't have point of views. When I was in journalism, didn't have a point of view. And so now I have to have a point of view and then people want to hear from me because I have a point of view.
They may disagree with it, which is beautiful, or they may agree with it, which is great, but then we understand and we can then communicate with each our different positions, why our values matter to us. And then hopefully By communicating, maybe some friction, but then we can actually come to some sort of understanding and maybe change our positions or maybe go further.
So I think values, I'm just, I'm, am I just preaching what you say to you?
Anne V Muhlethaler: I just want to hear more people talk about this. And I loved your line. You are a CEO of your life. Do your own values work. That's, that's a great call to action. Yeah. But it's interesting that you then pointed to the point of view piece, which I highlighted in the book.
Lisa Bragg: I love, if you're just listening to this, I love how her book is so highlighted. As an author, it brings me such joy to see people highlight the book, turn doggier. All the different things. So thank you for bringing me joy. It's my pleasure.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I really enjoyed this chapter called Own Your Own Knowledgeable Authority.
And I mirrored your experience when you were talking about being a journalist, because for many years I was a PR or a head of communications, and it wasn't my job to have a point of view outside of the boundaries of the work I was doing. And to an extent it was also about being the background, right?
The importance is to shine the light on https: otter. ai It's true that I had to reframe this for myself as I went on as a consultant on my own, as a coach, and of course, as a podcaster as well. And I really enjoyed the fact that you highlighted this and talked about how one can be influential in various ways.
There's more than one way to offer people inspiration. your point of view and let people know what you stand for. I think that's what values are for. What do we stand for in this life? Let us know so that we can recognize each other when we want to partner or sister up to your point earlier.
Lisa Bragg: What a beautiful point.
That's exactly it. Because when we know we can, we're sending signals to each other right away. And you and I send so many signals to each other. Oh, we are kindred spirits. Could you imagine what we can do to change the world in some, our big way or our little way? And it's significant. Just even having some companionship on this road and saying someone else has the same values as I do is just so beautiful.
Awe. The world is so vast and so many of us are working from our own little silos or home or from a coffee shop. But when we can say, here's what I stand for here, let's be part of our community. It doesn't mean that you have to constantly do something together, but just knowing that someone else is out there that shares, it's the signals to each other, the beacon to say, Hey, let's also keep going because the work we're doing is valuable to the world and the world that we want to have and the world that we need to have.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yes, I think it's about world changing and I appreciate the breadth of ways that you've presented how we can approach celebrating the successes, amping our efforts of self promotion with purpose. I just know it's going to be a deep, long work in progress for me. So for me too. Yeah. Yeah,
Lisa Bragg: I am my book. I go through times of being a hidden gem.
It's, you know, can't just everyone find me on my tiny piece of the internet and buy my book or buy, you know, hire me to speak or do my workshops like I go through those periods and I have, uh, Emilia in the book who, she does that, she explains that too, she, she's done lots of things, she was a, an oral surgeon for a while, but she goes through this experience of putting herself out there, then feeling shame for putting herself out there so much, and then realizing she has to do it for her work so that other people can know what, how she's here to serve.
And so we go back and forth. It's a dance of it. And so I am my book. I am a work in progress. I've seen all of it. I know what to do, but that's where we need to keep coming back to it and saying, what do I need to do? How do I keep going? And it's okay if you take a few steps back for a little while. We always think that people will notice that I didn't participate and see that as you know what everyone's so busy in their own lives.
And that's another point is that people think I already told them that story. The challenge is you need to tell them. That story again and again, because you're also reaching different people at different times likely too. So it's, we don't need to have a lot of content or have a lot of stories. We can tell the same story again and again and again.
It's just that we think we have to constantly do so much, but we don't. But I am my book. I am. So it's always a challenge and I hope my book helps people to get it. It does help me to remind me. To keep going and to be seen and be heard and the value of doing it.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yes, one of the things that I will absolutely start, I need to buy one specific one so it's pretty and it's going to be on my desk.
I want a brag book. Tell people what it is.
Lisa Bragg: You know, I think I need to make a brag book that I sell. I think that's something I need to do. So brag book, you probably already have one. It might be called a song. Smile file. I'm making a list of the different names. Somebody can't call it a stock. Take somebody a nice file, smile, file, brag.
So those are kind of the names and people say, oh, I've started it, but then I don't continue to put it together. But start today and it doesn't have to be going back in time to all the successes that you had, but find those things that today. What is something that someone sent you a thank you note for, a quick little email or text?
What are those things? Somebody maybe sent you a physical card. Like, where are you keeping that? Do you know where that is? Keep those things so that you can look back in 3, 20, whatever years and say, Oh, that mattered to somebody. Because we don't remember. I don't remember. Like you said, you don't remember what you did.
You had two minutes. It took you to come up with a success. We do that. We forget because we're again, as I said, we're on to the next goal all the time and our leaders. Don't you remember what I did last week? I brought in all that business. No, because they're on to the next firefighting thing. They're on to the next school.
They're on to their own personal agenda. So they don't remember. So the significance of a brag book is huge for their future. Your career, your post career, whatever it is, if you're trying to get on boards or whatever it is that you're trying to do, volunteer. You need to have those things, the artifacts along the way.
You need it for those down days of like, why am I doing this? It's, oh my goodness, here's why I'm doing this. And it's not all external validation because that's not healthy. It's also for that self validation piece to say, you know what? I did this really good thing today. No one else knows it, but I did it and I'm putting it in there.
So many times we need to stop and give ourselves that pat on the back. And I often say, let's all stop and give ourselves a pat on the back because we don't do it enough. And so that's where the brag book is writing your own compliments that you didn't receive that you should have, but they, or you think is really, cause we're in this life competing only against ourselves, collaboration over competition, but we're competing.
I need to be the better Lisa than I was yesterday. And I need to make sure that I'm growing. In this race of one. So how am I doing that? So I'm logging, I'm saying, Hey, here's something that I did and I showed up and I made a difference and I nobody else noticed. That's okay. I'm going to make sure that I noticed.
And so when we brag to ourselves first. We also get into the habit of celebrating our own successes and then we're starting to articulate them more and we also celebrate the successes of others even more so and that's what makes it even bigger and hopefully gets a snowball effect of bragging is a good thing out into the world.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah, and even that's going to be on a neurological basis, it's going to help the, the stories come back. Because if we don't even verbalize them, if we don't notice them, if we forget to even write it down for ourselves, of course, it's impossible to think about what to say. There is a process by which we are triggering our memory to remember these things.
It's a big deal. Now, talking about that, you just reminded me about a story about you that I love. So let me. Try to frame it so you know which one I'm talking about. You were then a journalist, a reporter, a videographer, and you found this really interested teenage kid who was doing amazing stuff on YouTube.
Lisa Bragg: Can you tell us about this? Yes, I was sent to Stratford, Ontario. So there's one clue if you're a big fan of this person. And I was tasked with doing a story on politics because they had several different political leaders in this area. And so I was tasked with going to interview people on the street to say, Hey, what do you think of this?
And so it was, it's a small town, so I'm like waiting for people. And all of a sudden, I think it's three or four teenage boys come up to me and they're like, We'll be on camera. So much enthusiasm. I was like, No, it's the politics. And they're like, And then one of them said, I'm going to be, I'm going to Atlanta or something.
or LA and I'm talking to all these producers and I had no clue of any of the people he was talking about. And these are all common names of people that we all know nowadays. And so I'm like, oh, okay. And then he sang to me and that's when I met Justin Bieber. And I didn't know, of course, he wasn't who he was.
He was just starting it all. But I went back to the TV station and I said, look, we should do a, a story on this. teenage boy who's really doing well on YouTube. There's something to this. He's putting himself out there. He's gathered the attention of all these people from the U. S. that are movers and shakers.
We should do something. Well, I got so razzed and so belittled for suggesting a YouTube story. It was embarrassing. It was so bad. Damn. Yeah, I was so embarrassed from it. I was like, I still remember to the day how I was so talked down on it that I was humiliated. And so I realized if he's doing this himself, like the technology, meaning Justin Bieber, if he's doing this himself, the technology is at a stage where this is in everyone's hands.
All this technology and all of us are content creators now. And so an early example, so that's where I'm like, I need to go off and start my own business. I have the tools. And again, this goes back to that earlier story of, I had to shoot my own stories. I had to edit my own stories. I had to upload them. I had to do all these different Writing.
I had to do everything for it. It allowed me to start my solo business of one, helping people develop content and I grew it to 20 something people. It was on Canada's fastest growing lists and all those things, which was great. But it started with realizing that if a teenager named Justin Bieber can start to do this, then I can.
And I did this before he left and became famous. Yes. I didn't know he actually had any fame until I was somewhere with my daughter years later. I guess it would have been 2009, 2010, and I heard his big song, Baby, on the radio. I'm like, wait a minute, that just, that's the person. And uh, cause I had love news.
So I wasn't, uh, following his career as closely as what all his super fans had done. So that's, that's a little bit of the extended story that, uh, does start the book of realizing We can take these opportunities into our own hands and make them happen and not wait for other people, the former gatekeepers, to decide that we're worthy or valuable to have these opportunities.
We're in a very interesting time where it is open to us to make things happen.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Hmm. It's so interesting because it's, It also speaks to your curation capacities that were being squashed. You saw something and I bet, I really hope that your previous bosses at that TV station are going to hear you speak on any of the TV shows or podcasts that you're currently doing about the book and realize the bad mistake they made that day.
Lisa Bragg: I had the chance to go back to the TV station that it took place because my editor made me name it and I wasn't going to because there's a lot of really good things People who work there and so I was sitting on the couch with one of the anchors Annette and she's They're doing the countdown into my segment and Annette said Tell me who was it?
Who was this person behind the scenes? And so we were like gossiping about about the story as we were going into and there were three two And then we're like, we're back into the segment and it was like, Oh yeah, we're, we're kind of thing. So it was, it was so funny to reminisce and give her the down low on who it was.
And it was people who didn't want to see the new era that was coming. And that is now here. That was already. And that's the thing. We're not seeing it. Seeing that we're already into that next industrial revolution. We're no longer in the factory. We're no longer into the, so that was a third. We're no longer in the fourth.
We're in the fifth. We don't even know where we are because AI is changing our world in ways that we can't see on the surface yet, but we're moving through this technology era so fast. And so they're part of that old school. Things are going to take so long to change. Who do you think you are? No, we're the gatekeepers.
It was fun to reminisce, but seeing that. The TV industry has changed so much and it's having a hard time and what is the future for all of us? I think that's part of it is owning your future and having that self advocacy pieces is what we can do. Again, you are the CEO of your life.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah. And you need to have people to help you relay your stories because at the end of the day, what you wanted to do that day was pick someone's story who was a hidden gem, who you wouldn't necessarily see on the news.
And that was rebuffed. It really speaks to. Your then mission being squashed. No, no wonder why you had to go out on your own and build something new. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. Now let's see someone who listens to this is interested, but is I'm not going to read a whole book. What is the most important thing you want to leave our listeners with about this idea of bragging?
As in celebrating your successes to help tell the stories, share those moments.
Lisa Bragg: I think it's, I do want people to start their own brag book and celebrate themselves. But I think don't tear down other people's successes. If you're hearing someone else talk about their successes and you feel they shouldn't, you feel jealousy, you feel something come up in you, it's okay.
But don't cut them down for it. Allow them to talk about their successes, because you might not be the right person. And that's why context matters so much with bragging and self promotion. And that's why when we hear things from certain people, we're not the audience they're meant to serve. And so we feel that ickiness.
We feel that because we're not the audience. And so context matters so much. Let other people have their successes and own them and encourage them to talk about successes because they're leaving clues. for you, and maybe not you directly, but maybe it's for your niece or nephew of the future that they're the person that is the go to person on that topic.
And they're leaving breadcrumbs moments along the way for us to connect with.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Oh my God, you're making me misty. You just reminded me of something super special. I want to illustrate what you just said. So a few years ago, I went to Australia for the first time and my friend Marion said, go meet my friends.
They're amazing. So I did. And I was hanging out with this wonderful lady called Fumi. Fumi has no children, but she has two nieces, one of which she kept on singing the praises of. So she was doing the job that you were talking about earlier, right? And she kept on talking about how many languages she speaks and how clever she is and what she's studying.
Not long after, There was an opening at, in my office for a three month internship where we really teach someone the job of a PR assistant. And had Fumi not spent several long minutes talking up and bragging about her niece, I would have never thought of extending an invitation to come and interview.
And not only did she, she became an intern, she turned, she became an assistant and I believe she's still in the company and she has moved up the ranks since then. So we never know where these brags or us sharing stories can change someone's future. I actually sometimes thought that I went to Australia for a long break, but there's a part of me that thinks maybe I just went to Australia to meet Fumi so her niece could get a job.
Lisa Bragg: Exactly. And that's, we don't know how our successes are going to play into that. And then when we give other people the opportunity, because who knows how Fumi's niece is then going to help you in the future. And that's where it's all this tapestry. Or help a younger girl at some point or And that's paying it forward, allowing other people to talk about their successes.
If you had thought, Oh, listen to her. Oh my goodness. Like that's just too much and you shut it off, but you also welcomed it and then it's in your bank. And also, You probably didn't think that Fumi was bragging herself promoted or talking about her. It was not too much. It was just like, Oh, like, this is a very interesting person because it's within, like, we feel very comfortable with it.
And that's where so many of us shut ourselves down from it, thinking that other people don't want to hear it. But again, they do want to hear our success stories. And then we want to make connections. So many of us, especially the people listening to your podcast. They want to be helpful. They want to make connections so we can all get ahead in, in the best way.
And that she was probably the best person, but if Fumi hadn't said, Hey, here's a great person that would never have happened. Too many hidden gems, you know, we need to help each other out and shine a spotlight. on each other as we go. So that's a beautiful story. It gave me shivers.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Yeah, it's funny. I haven't thought about this for a long time.
Hmm. So let me just pick one thing out of the book just for fun, just to see where we land unless we've talked about it before. You touched on this a little bit about people who get a pass for bragging. Who gets a pass for bragging?
Lisa Bragg: Yeah, and it's so funny who gets the pass. And it's often it's the CEO of a company.
A CEO is expected to talk about how awesome They are and how awesome their team is and how awesome their stock and the shares and all that stuff. We expect them to, we want them to, if they don't, if they start going to self deprecation mode, the board is going to remove them pretty fast or they're not going to get the clients.
And so that's, we need the CEOs to talk about their successes and brag and self promote. We see a lot of leaders get that hero effect. Like they're our leader. We want to put them out there because we want to have. Somebody winning and that's the human condition. We often want to see one person winning.
We always think it's about the team But when we look back at it, it's actually we do pick one person from the team to be the winner And that's there's a lot of research done on that. Yes. It's all about the team But if there is always one person who gets the credit for work, that's a big thing with me And it's definitely in the book we celebrate Celebrity culture, right?
We want to see that person. We think that their wins are our wins. We promote it because we want to feel part of something. Meanwhile, if we're out there promoting our things, people then start to follow us and find us. Even that one person that we need to touch. Be part of like have that narrow casting instead of broadcasting that one person can make a difference in your life Like you did with Fumi's niece like that one person that needs to know us So we find that we really support musicians and actors Sports stars we really want to support them.
We do that with our teams. We often make it about the team though There might be one or two key players that we know about but then it's about the team Who else? Authors get to come on podcasts and talk about how great their books are and how you should really go out and buy it. So we give these people passes, but we don't give ourselves the same pass because, oh, in my industry, we don't have celebrities.
Actually, you do. You have those key people that get hired over and over again. And so why are people going to them? And so we have that. It's like, no, my, my industry is about hiding. No, there are people behind the scenes. Dolly Parton's. person who did her musical arrangement, or maybe Beyoncé, is very well known in the industry.
They might be behind the scenes to us, but in their context, they're a very big deal.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I'm so glad you brought that narrow casting versus wide casting net. That was one of the things that caught my attention yesterday. So I'd love to ask you, what's next for Lisa Bragg?
Lisa Bragg: It's really letting people know in a focused way that they can hire me to be a singer.
And I'm also really about giving my book continual lift so many people who do things, they'll put it out there and then it's done. And authors are very guilty of this where it's here's my book, exciting launch. Okay, it's done. I'm now just going to let the book die. I'm going to put my feet on the ground, ground myself and do my work and say, I know this book has tremendous value.
I keep hearing it again and again and again. I have the thank you notes. I have people telling me how it's made a difference and how it's helping to them to be a better leader or to get that promotion or raise that they want or even more clients. So I'm getting that and whatever else. Great ideas that come my way from people who are saying, Hey, you should have a brag book, or you should make a book club.
Those are great ideas. It's not a shiny object. It's really still within my lane because I have, I do shiny object squirrel easily, but I'm really dedicated to making sure that I own this. And we are leaders. We are experts. We are visionaries. And I think that bragging is controversial. It is one of those things like people aren't comfortable with it, but I want to be the person that people look to and say, Hey, Anything that Lisa is talking about within bragging and self promotion, we need to bring her in and have her work with us.
So many people want to be champions and sponsors and mentors, but how do we do it in a good way? How do we help each other to shine? How do I become a better leader who helps my team? All of those things are things that I love to talk about and help people with.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Hmm. Thank you so much for sharing that. I noted several times that you used that word, shine, and It's funny, I need to tell you that one of the ways that I describe my personal mission with the podcast, and that's not something that I normally share with the public, it's something that I write in the outreach to my guests, is that I put on my PR hat when I edit, and I bring the best of our conversation to the air, because my goal is to make my guests shine.
So I hope I'll do justice to your mission as well.
Lisa Bragg: Your thoughtful questions and they're so deep, uh, obviously have already helped me to shine. So it's really made me to think deeper and think about how I am of service. So I appreciate your questions and thoughtfulness too. I can tell you've done your research and then some.
So thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler: So I have a few more questions for you, which I like to ask all of my guests. The first one is, as you understand, the podcast is that the crossroads between business and mindfulness and it's a space that I inhabit being both a mindfulness teacher and a student, always, and someone who works and evolves as an entrepreneur and as a former executive.
So when I say, what are your tools, your strategies, what keeps you grounded? What mindfulness resources do you bring into your life? I mean it on a sort of a holistic basis. It doesn't need to be about your meditation practice, especially in case you don't have one. But I like to find that sense of connection, because there are times where life throws what the writer Annie Lamott calls the cosmic banana peel at us.
There are times where we need more help than others. And I, I find it personally very enriching to find out what works, what keeps you going. Or makes you feel good in your own skin? What helps you brag?
Lisa Bragg: Oh, that's such a great in depth question too. I think it's Knowing that I'm of service is something that I always reflect on.
Is this of service to my audience? I think that's a big piece for me. Always. I also have great coaches So I have a great business coach right now that I tap into who helps me I just had a call with her and I have had different coaches. I don't stay with the same people it's different reasons different seasons of people that I can tap into who've maybe already done it or having connections to people who are doing it or Just allow me to have that accountability that we need sometimes.
I think that's really important. So having the right coaches at the right time, the right fit helps me along the way. Cause while I am very much a self starter and, but I know I don't know everything. I don't know what I don't know. And if I can help, if she can help me to level up faster to think of it from a different perspective, I think that's really valuable.
And that's why I always encourage people to get a coach at any different time and have somebody that they can call on. It's a lonely road. And I've mentioned it a few times as an entrepreneur, as somebody who wants to grow, it's easy when you stay in the same place. It's comfortable. It's the more people are there.
But when you're trying to grow and change, it's a new road. And so we don't know what we don't know. So having a coach along the way, if you want a really tactical piece, I wiggle my toes a lot. So, um, when I'm in an interview, or if I'm doing something and I'm feeling like I might be drifting or not. In my body, I wiggle my toes, and so even though I'm giving a speech in a workshop and I know my material inside and out, but if I know I'm starting to go off somewhere or I'm just not feeling grounded and in my body, I wiggle my toes, and so I remind myself to wiggle my toes quite a bit, wiggle my toes, and then that allows me to have that conversation.
And that's it. Earth thing, Earth experience of being here where we're supposed to be and not just all way up in my head and thinking about the next million things that are going through all the synapses and all the things. It helps me to come back to Mother Earth and to hopefully then also start breathing a little bit deeper.
And I think that's really that grounding practice that um, is so, so basic, but so obvious for me. It's breathing, you know, remembering to breathe. I think that's, in journalism, I would have criticism from some of my news directors, my voice was too high, and uh, so now I have the resonance, and it's through breathing and expanding your vocal cords.
What a terrible thing to say, your voice is too high. What's the code for that? But allowing myself, we need to breathe more. So even I'll do, I'll be doing a workshop and I'll say, you know what, I need to breathe more and also make everyone stop and do a,
because we can influence everyone's breath when we start to be engaged by our breath.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Absolutely. I record guided meditations that I edit myself. And you'd think that if it's yourself that you listen to, that it doesn't have an effect. Nah, it works. I'd be saying, and now let's take a deep breath in through the nose and release with a long slow sigh out through the mouth.
Ah. Hmm. And every time I do it, as I, you're right, it does influence us. Thank you so much for sharing.
Lisa Bragg: Our shoulders come down from our ears, right? So I think it's, those are the things that I can list off the top of my head.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I wish I'd known these things as a teenager. I think I was 25 when someone pointed out my shoulders were here.
Anyway. Now, what is your favorite word? And I like to frame this by saying it's a word that you could live with for a while. So perhaps tattoo on yourself.
Lisa Bragg: It's a word I've always been accused of being passionate. I think that might have been come across in this podcast. And I had an employee once that didn't like my passion.
But if you're not passionate, And have passion for your own life and your own endeavors, your own projects. What's the point? So I actually wear passion. If I were to get a tattoo, it would probably be passion and passionate. I think we need enthusiasm. We need to hold that in our bellies and our fire and whatever it is and have passion about something.
I think that so many people don't have. We're all walking along with this. Neutral face right now and like the bland. But when you are remarkable and you let that shine and people can see that they're actually drawn to you. And so the naysayers will say you're too much. Your passion is too much. And it's to your detriment.
It's like, no, no, no, you're not for me. And so passion is a big word. So passion or passionate. I'm not sure which one it is, but it's it made me passion. Have it in a bracket. I don't know.
Anne V Muhlethaler: That's, that works. Absolutely. That's wonderful. I must say that passion is one of my three top values. So I see you.
Lisa Bragg: Oh, thank you.
I appreciate that.
Anne V Muhlethaler: What does connection mean to you?
Lisa Bragg: Connection is everything. I go out seeking connection all the time. I'll do strange things to make more connection. Connection is everything. The more connections we have, I'm going to go, it's that person that you meet that you have the connection that you can help then someone else.
And we're all of us are connectors in some way. So having connection just is everything. It's part of all that I joy that it brings. We might not always be on the journey together, but when we know that we're part of the tapestry, the mosaic of our lives, that we can touch into each other and say, Hey, I haven't talked to you in 10 years and that's okay.
We've had a connection. Let's reconnect. And I think that connection is, is everything. It actually gives me shivers to talk about connection. The more we are connected to different people, the more we learn about ourselves, the more we get grounded in who we aren't. I think connection is the difference between success and, and failure too, is that when we have more connection in our lives, it makes the load much, much easier along the way.
It's just connection is so powerful.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Thank you. Now this one is very hard. What song best represents you?
Lisa Bragg: In the book, I have an anthem that I use, and I need to go back to it over and over again, and it's the, it's called, it's the struts, and it could have been me. There's also a, more of a PG Disney version of it that's in Sing To, and it's about not taking the opportunities at hand and letting other people take them.
Take them and then what? It could have been me. I don't want to live a life that could have been me and in the book it says the good die young. I don't believe that, but it's about if I don't seize the opportunity today, when will it be? I'm only gonna be the youngest I am right now. So I have to seize the opportunity today so that I can have the future that I want.
And so I don't want to, the coulda, shoulda, wouldas suck. I don't want that to be my life. And I don't use the word suck too often, but it's not the way I want to be. So when I have that song playing and it gives me that anthem feeling, like that vibe that's, okay, I need to live and I need to get out of my hidden gem status and make sure that I am being seen and being heard in the way that's needed.
most of service to the people I'm meant to serve, my audiences. And so it allows me to shake off that hidden gem and say, okay, I need to get out into the world and to let people know. So that song is my anthem. And I think it summarizes what I want for all of us is to be seen and be heard.
Anne V Muhlethaler: I just want to say that shake off that hidden gem could be a great title for a new song.
So
Lisa Bragg: there you go. That's awesome.
Anne V Muhlethaler: What is the sweetest thing that's ever happened to you?
Lisa Bragg: Oh, I think I'm a parent. I think anything that my daughter does is almost like the sweetest thing. And that's the sweetest thing. And that's the sweetest thing. She is the most emotionally intelligent, thoughtful person I have ever met.
And so just so many things that she does as a 14 year old is just so amazing. Beautiful. Like she's just, she's my biggest cheerleader. My husband is too, but the joy of my daughter is the sweetest thing. So like almost anything she does is just so, so great. And being willing to go on this journey that I put in front of my family and, uh, the rocky road of it all.
It's, it is a roller coaster, but I think she just brings so many sweet moments to me that I'm going to tear up that it's, it's a joy. Yeah. Thank you for letting me have that.
Anne V Muhlethaler: And what is her name?
Lisa Bragg: Her name is Elora. Elora A. Oh, that's beautiful.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Thank you. What is a secret superpower that you have? And I say secret as in you haven't told me about it yet.
Lisa Bragg: Ooh, I've told you so many things. A secret superpower. Oh my goodness. A secret superpower. Well, because I was going to say right away, well, I'm a connector, but I think you already can see that through it. So a secret superpower. Ah, like I learned to drive a boat recently, which is not a superpower, but it's like something that you know what it is.
I'm willing to learn. I don't know what I don't know and I'm willing to learn. I think that's a superpower. I'm willing to learn and I have a curiosity and that might have already been seen through this, but I think it's a superpower to be curious and to say, I don't know what I don't know, but I'm also curious enough to lean in and try it.
And as an adult, as you get older and older, I think we become entrenched that we don't want to make a fool of ourselves and say, I don't know, because with this boating thing, I have to boat. I often boat into this area where there's a whole bunch of young teenagers, my daughter's age, I'm dropping her off and I'm a new boater and they've been boating for.
five years, three years, and they're not afraid of their docking and all the things that they do. I'm like, so over my head and so nervous and so worried about it. And they're already pros, but they're also fluid about it. And it just reminds me of the beginner mindset. I think that's something that I'm willing to have the beginner's mindset.
I think that is a superpower. Thank you. That's awesome that you helped me with that. You're such a good coach. Thank you. What's a favorite book that you can
Anne V Muhlethaler: share with us?
Lisa Bragg: Oh, I'm a voracious reader. So a favorite book. I'm going to go back way back to being a child and it's so Canadian of me, but Lucy Maude Montgomery, who wrote Anna Green Gables, it is a beautiful book and it has so much about self reflection and she's an orphan and it's a time where it's tough to be So, Alone in the world.
It's always a tough time to be alone in the world, but it's about you find new family. You find new connections. You strive. It's about ups and downs in the world that things are not always fair or as they seem, but you have resilience. You have emotional intelligence and that you can make a new beginning and grow.
I think that book is just so beautiful on so many levels. And it's just one of those books that if I need a little bit of comfort food, I will go back to the book. Or there was a movie done in the eighties that I don't, it's so hard to see. I have this very worn VHS and our VHS machine is always broken, but it's like just one of those, I have to find it online.
It's a beautiful adaptation of the book. That just is one of my. Put a warm blanket on and then go back in time with it. So Anne of Green Gables, if you ever want to pick it up for a warm Sunday read or have children in your life, it's one of those books that they should read.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Now, imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself, what is the most important advice that you think Future you needs to give present state you.
Lisa Bragg: Think bigger and it will happen. I think often I just want to achieve this level here, where when I see other people, it's like this level. So I have friends that have sold a million books and I would never have thought I should sell a million books.
I would never have thought that. And so, I'm learning that. Like, think bigger, because then when you think bigger things will happen, I think it goes to that whole adage of go to the stars or beyond and then at least you'll hit here. That kind of thinking, I often will limit myself and I shouldn't be limiting myself.
I think that's one of the things I need to stop limiting yourself and keep going for it on a higher level. And now that I have a friends that have sold a million books, it's, it opens up your eyes to say, wow, there's. There is an opportunity to, in this day and age, to sell a million books. Okay. I haven't sold anywhere near that right now, but you know what?
I will keep going for it and see what happens. But it's, I would tell her definitely don't limit yourself to keep going. Yeah. There's, there's way more beyond.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Thank you. And that brings us to my last and my favorite question. What brings you happiness?
Lisa Bragg: Oh, sometimes it's the small things of, I have cats and a dog, you know, my daughters are solo.
So, uh, we have two cats and a dog and it's just being with them and seeing the joy of these pets who actually want to be around me. They only want food and love, right? So that's the thing. I think it's being out. in nature walking my dog with my daughter and my husband and hearing the birds chirp and we're just heading into spring as we're recording this and having the springtime sounds around us and seeing the world erupt in flowers and the trees bloom.
Seeing all that come alive is just a beautiful thing and that's where I feel like, okay, we can climb anything. I also just climbed. Camelback Mountain in Arizona, and that was just a feat. I hadn't planned on climbing it. My husband and I, we just were going to go to one of the mile markers, one of the areas, and my daughter said, let's go to the top.
14 year old with the limbs to just climb everything and was always waiting for us at the next marker, but she was cheerleading all of us on and people would say to me in the path, they'd say, hey, your daughter is so awesome. I'm like, she's cheering us on. I'm like. Oh my goodness, that gave me a lot of joy to hear her do that.
It's natural for her, but to be able to climb to the summit and it was for me, it was very hard and to be able to do it and have my daughter cheer me on and my husband there supporting and being there right behind me just in case was really good. And it was a challenge and it wasn't a challenge I was planning to do, but we did it and coming down is also equally as hard.
I was thinking that,
Anne V Muhlethaler: I was picturing the moment, I was thinking, there's a part of me that's more worried about the descent than the ascent.
Lisa Bragg: And we don't celebrate the descent. We celebrate all the pictures of, hey, here I am at the top, but then it's coming down and realizing, huh, it's tricky. Up and down are tricky in their own ways.
And I think there's something to say with that. In our careers and our lives and as we see other people ascend and descend, we need to also realize up and down is interesting and tricky in its own way, but we often only celebrate. But what does it look like as we're coming down to celebrate that and to say, I did it, I did these things and we should celebrate more.
Really we need to, all of it, the ups and the downs and they're all wins in different ways and all different lessons.
Anne V Muhlethaler: That's the perfect thing to end this podcast on. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time, Lisa. It was such a joy to get to know you better and to hear more about the substance behind the concepts.
And hopefully we've built a case for our listeners out there to go out, not just get the book, but get involved with the book or pass it on, recommend it to people in their lives who I am sure they know need the help. That you're offering to to help them tell their success stories.
Lisa Bragg: I appreciate you so much.
And I appreciate the audience giving us their time too. And I hope you do go if it's of service to get the book, but I really appreciate your point of sharing it with others and passing it on to someone else. I think that's the gift of our knowledge. And that we can be of service to each other. So I thank you.
I thank you so much for the questions. It was such an enjoyable experience.
Anne V Muhlethaler: Oh, I'm so happy. I'll put all of the links in the show notes and I'll make sure to update the links as and when new offerings will come out. But you can find Lisa on lisabrag. com. I'm sure you will not forget her name. Thank you so much and have a beautiful rest of the day.
I hope that we'll get to connect again very soon. Thanks.
So friends and listeners, thanks again for joining me today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice. And if you'd like to connect with me, you can find me @annvi on Threads on Instagram or Anne Muhlethaler on LinkedIn. If you don't know how to spell it, the link is in the notes or on Instagram @_ outtheclouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness.
You can find all of the episodes of the podcast and much more on the website. Out of the clouds. com. If you'd like to find out more from me, I invite you also to subscribe to the Metta View, my weekly newsletter, where I explore coaching, brand development, conscious communication, and the future of work.
That's the Mettaview with two Ts, themettaview.com. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to out of the clouds. I hope that you will join me again next time until then be well. Be safe and take care.
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