In this episode of Out of the Clouds, host Anne Muhlethaler interviews writer, copy editor and journalist Manfreda Cavazza.
The two have been collaborating since late 2020, with Manfreda supporting Anne in her writing for the blog and newsletter she publishes weekly for her company, AVM Consulting. They share a number of values, including, among other things, a love of words well used, storytelling and values-driven strategies.
In this interview, the Italian-English writer shares stories about her childhood spent between Brazil, Italy and England, her beginnings as a journalist in London covering the retail sector, and her adventures sailing around the world for a year with her husband and two young daughters.
Manfreda loves to talk about voice - the importance of purposeful writing and tone - as a tool for brands or freelancers to leverage when crafting their message so they find the right audience. The two talk about thinking of the audience first, why they dislike the word “content,” and how we could all do well to remember to use a little humour in writing copy.
For anyone who cares about how writing can support connection with your clients or audience, this is a wonderful interview full of applicable insights. Happy listening!
***
Selected links from episode
You can find Manfreda at https://www.manfredacavazza.com/
or on LinkedIn and Instagram @freddiewrite78
Read Manfreda's travel blog https://smallhandsondeck.wordpress.com/
Mahon, one of Manfreda's favorite spots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C3%B3n
Princess Diana Beach in Barbuda https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g147253-d11998734-Reviews-Princess_Diana_Beach-Barbuda_Antigua_and_Barbuda.html
Ann Handley, who Manfreda quotes https://annhandley.com/
and writer Anne Lamott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Lamott
Tony's Chocolonely - https://tonyschocolonely.com/int/en
Mailchimp's Tone & Voice document - https://styleguide.mailchimp.com/voice-and-tone/
Any Human Heart by William Boyd - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Any_Human_Heart
***
If you enjoyed this episode, click subscribe for more, and consider writing a review of the show on Apple Podcasts, it helps people find us and also helps to secure future guests. Thank you so much for listening!
For all notes and transcripts, please visit Out Of The Clouds on Simplecast - https://out-of-the-clouds.simplecast.com/
Sign up for Anne's email newsletter for more from Out of the Clouds at https://annevmuhlethaler.com.
Follow Anne:
Twitter: @annvi
IG: @_outoftheclouds
Anne Muhlethaler:
Hi, hello, bonjour, and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. And I am your host Anne Muhlethaler. So today I am delighted to introduce you to Manfreda Cavazza, a collaborator of mine who I was introduced to over 18 months ago now by a very close friend of mine Etain. Manfreda is a writer, a journalist, and a copy editor, my copy editor. And she edits my work on a weekly basis for the newsletter that I release for Avm.Consulting, which is my main business. So it feels indulgent and wonderful to interview a journalist to reverse the tables on Manfreda. And so we talk about her childhood between Brazil, Italy, and England, what it's like to not fit in. How she sailed around the world for a year with her husband and two little girls. And then we talk about business, we talk about tone of voice, how to put ourselves in our audience's shoes and why it matters. So I give you my long-ranging and wonderful interview with Manfreda Cavazza, enjoy. Manfreda, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Out of the Clouds.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Thank you. It's very exciting to be here too.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wonderful. I love to ask my guests to start by telling our listeners the story of who they are and what they do.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Okay. Well, my name's Manfreda obviously. What's my story? So I grew up abroad. I lived in Brazil when I was little and then in Italy. My dad's Italian and my mom was English. I think I've had a very colorful, very privileged, very different life. My parents were quite free spirited people, they were very adventurous and they liked to go against the grain I guess. So they were given this opportunity when they were young to go and live in Brazil, and my dad was asked to go and work on a family farm. It belonged to my grandfather, but he wanted to send his son out to Brazil to set up this new life for the family. And my dad just took the chance to go and went with relatively new wife and me as a three-month-old baby. And this is in the late 70s.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And so it was just quite an exciting adventurous way to start their lives together. So that's where I grew up. I feel like that's been something that has really defined me as a person because, I mean, obviously now I live in the UK, and I've spent a lot of time living and working here in Britain, went to university here. I've lived in London for many years. And I just feel like I've never really met many people who've had that sort of background. In fact, I've always felt like it's been to my detriment in a way because I feel like I missed out on a lot of culture and TV. When my friends talk about the sort of TV programs that they watched when they were little and the music that they listened to and the life that they had, I just literally have no connection with that whatsoever.
Manfreda Cavazza:
But as I've grown older, I've realized that that sort of adventurous spirit and just going out there and living your life and not really conforming is something that I think has been instilled in me. Obviously, I've been a lucky person in that I have a very supportive family and have been able to do things because of the support that I have for my family. But I also think that I've never turned down exciting opportunities and adventure because of that sort of beginning that I had in my life I guess. But yeah, I don't know how far to go and how much to say with my story, but that's sort of the beginning, and I think it has shaped me as a person. So after I was 10 when we left Brazil, and I was distraught about leaving.
Manfreda Cavazza:
In fact, I remember finding an old diary of mine that I wrote in the months before we left. And I was just so emotional about it, and I just loved it. I had my friends, I had my school, I had all my activities that I used to do. I had a very full and colorful childhood and I just didn't want to go anywhere. We ended up living outside Rome for a few years. I did love it there, but I felt like I, in fact, this has been a pattern, I felt like I didn't really fit in there either. It was just a bit of an odd situation because we were living outside of Rome, but I was going to school in Rome. It was a long journey back and forth every day, and I felt like I was missing out on all the fun that my friends were having who lived in Rome.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And by this point, I was coming up to 13, 14. And my parents then decided to send me to boarding school because they couldn't drive me back and forth to Rome every day. And for some reason to them sending me abroad again was the best solution, and I absolutely loved it there. I went to school in West Sussex called St. Michaels near Pentworth. And it wasn't a brilliant school, but I just really gained a huge amount of independence. I mean, with hindsight, it was a bit sad that I wasn't at home for those teenage years, but I just had such a lovely time. It was very Malory Towers all girls boarding school, midnight feasts and all that sort of thing, all very jolly.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And then I went back to Rome actually to do my A levels because my school closed down. It wasn't a great school as I said. Actually going to that school, the second school I went to in Rome was brilliant. It was an international school, and they really pushed me. And I think they saw in me some potential that I didn't think any other school had seen. And they encouraged me to apply to Oxford, so I did. And I really didn't think I'd get in, but I did. And Oxford was amazing, I had an amazing time there. The friends that I made there are still people that I'm in touch with now. I studied English and Italian literature, and that was such a lovely course. And then I went to London after that.
Manfreda Cavazza:
So London was interesting for me because throughout university I really wasn't sure what I was going to do in terms of my career. I tried to do the corporate thing, I did a graduate three-month internship at L'Oreal because it was a business that I think was targeting my university. I knew I wanted to do something that was creative and that used writing and words, and I just thought marketing would be a good place for me. But I didn't like being part of a big corporate organization and an environment. I just felt too constrained like I was a tiny cog in a big organization, I didn't enjoy it. So I ended up pursuing journalism as a career, but it was so difficult to get into really highly competitive. And I got hundreds of rejections and just really struggled to get anywhere, but eventually got a job working for a financial newswire. And that's actually where I met Etain, which is why we were eventually connected. So it's funny me how those things work.
Manfreda Cavazza:
But yeah, I worked for this newswire just as a subedit, so I was literally editing other people's work. But I was there for a whole year, and it was the starting point for me to then pursue a career. And I ended up getting into business journalism because of that first job. I fell into business journalism, I thought I'd end up doing something a bit more creative like travel or feature writing. But business journalism was a really good place for me to end up in. So I went from working at AFX News to Retail Week. And I was a reporter there for a couple of years, and I covered the fashion sector, which was really fun. And I loved being a business journalist because I just found ...
Manfreda Cavazza:
It was just really interesting talking to all these amazing people that have done so well and have grown their businesses and just really having that access to those sorts of minds I guess. My job was to go in and ask difficult questions and find out what their plans were, what their strategies were and just find good industry stories. And retail was a great sector to write about. It was the early 90s, and there was so much going on in retail. Amazing personalities, really cool brands.
Anne Muhlethaler:
There's one thing that I want to go back to you for a second that I feel is really interesting. So what I heard you tell me in the story of your upbringing in Brazil and even after in Rome and being an early teenager and not feeling like you founded yourself fitting in necessarily and being a nonconformist as your parents had been and not someone who'd say no to an adventure. I am so not surprised that you were not a fit for L'Oreal. I want to share with you that even though I didn't move around that much, I did not fit in either. And I think that sometimes, well, first of all, I don't know how many people really think that they fit in, so I think there's a debatable point there. The question is, do they ever say that loud?
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I think that those of us who really don't feel like they fit in have an inner fire and a passion that propels them to go out and find the place or the thing or the people that help them fit in. And I love the story of you discovering yourself in a way in that boarding school. Which by the way as a teenager, that would've been my nightmare because-
Manfreda Cavazza:
Oh, your nightmare?
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yes, because in Switzerland it's not something ... I mean, of course there are Swiss boarding schools that are famous, but generally they're famous for housing the children of incredibly rich people. And so for me doesn't make sense because we don't have the example of what that looks like. But I know that Aton our common friend, she went to boarding school, and she loved it. I know half of her friends from boarding school.
Manfreda Cavazza:
That's so funny. It's fame in Italy actually because I remember my Italian family being really shocked that my parents sent me to boarding school. They were like, "What's she done wrong?" My parents are like, "No, no, this is going to be good for her. She's not in trouble, she's not doing anything wrong. She's not being packed off to some correction institute," or whatever. It's just the culture. And my mom was English, so she knew what English boarding schools could do for children. I mean, I would never send my kids to boarding school, but that's only from a more of a selfish thing. And also the cost nowadays is just ridiculous. In terms of teaching children independence and giving them the sport, the extracurricular activities, all you're doing is you are just hanging out with your friends and doing all of these things with your friends and having to look after yourself. We had to learn how to keep our rooms tidy and do all our washing and make our beds and organize ourselves. I think it's a great, it can be great-
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think that from your mother's point of view is like, yay, she's going to learn all of that, and I don't have to man her. I think that's a winner from that parenting perspective. I'm so interested to hear about how your career really took a turn because of that first job. It's so interesting, and I don't know if I believe in coincidence or in synchronicity, but I really love what you were saying about the business minds and retail. And your back writing in retail nowadays, it seems to be something that's pursuing you in some way.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yeah. So it's funny. So after I left AFX News, and actually there's a bit that I forgot to say because it took me a long time to actually get into journalism, it was almost a sense of I didn't have the self-belief that I could just do it. So I ended up doing a postgraduate course after my university degree. I did the L'Oreal thing, I did go away for a bit. I went traveling, I did a ski season, which was really fun. And then I came back and I was like, "Right, if I'm going to make this work, and obviously the corporate world isn't for me. I want to be a journalist, but I don't have any credentials, and I just need to go and do a course." So I did a post-graduate course in journalism, and I think that's what then gave me the confidence to apply to these sorts of journalism jobs.
Manfreda Cavazza:
But what was interesting is the Retail Week job, I must have applied for it rather than anyone trying to find me. But I just wasn't sure about it because it was a trade magazine and I just thought, oh, this is going to be really boring. But it really wasn't because of the sector that I was covering. And maybe if I'd ended up in any other trade magazine I would've fallen in love with that sector. I mean, there's lots of brilliant business trade magazines that exist in the UK. So retail was great because the guy that was my editor then is still the editor now. So I get commissions still 20 years since I worked there, I'm still being asked to write articles for them.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And I love it because it's still a really vibrant sector. There's still so much going on, so much change. If you think about eCommerce and the rise of online shopping and how people are coping with that. The lockdown has had a massive impact. The last article I wrote for them was about the four-day week, and it was really interesting to look at how the retail sector might embrace that sort of working culture.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I have a very soft spot for retail because I think that in Europe in general, and I find ... Yeah, I want to make a generalization, in Europe in general I find that retail doesn't necessarily hold a lot of respect when you work retail. It's like a kind of lesser job than if you worked journalism medicine or many other things. And yet everybody uses and benefits from the work that is done by retailers. And how much did we miss them when they were gone, when we couldn't go anywhere? And there's so much that gets to be experienced in stores, and so many connections. I love the people at my supermarket, I don't know what to say.
Manfreda Cavazza:
There are some amazing European retail brands, and obviously there's some amazing all sorts of global retail brands. But I do think there is something about the British retail scene which it's so vibrant and so creative. There was this quote that we always used to bring out, which is we're a nation of shopkeepers. The Brits are a nation of shopkeepers, and we just have this lovely shopping culture. And I think that now because of the pandemic and because of online having such an impact on physical stores, people who work in retail having to be even more creative and thinking of all sorts of different ways to get people in and get them shopping. But the eCommerce space is something that is also super interesting because obviously with sustainability being such a major thing for consumers, there's some very interesting eCommerce brands popping up. And seeing how that is going to pan out I think will be really key.
Anne Muhlethaler:
But if you don't mind, I just want to go back a step because I wanted to know, were you ever interested in writing when you were younger? Did you know you wanted to get into writing?
Manfreda Cavazza:
I think writing was always something that I loved doing as a child. I wasn't a consistent diary writer, but I always had a diary on the go. I wouldn't write every day, but I would pour out all of my emotions into my diaries. English was always one of my favorite subjects at school, I was an avid reader. So I was the eldest of three girls, and I think my mom spent a lot of time teaching me how to read. So I learned how to read when I was quite young. And also living in Brazil, we actually lived in the city but my dad was a farmer. And so we used to spend a lot of time on the farm. And there wasn't a TV for ages, so there was literally nothing to do apart from read or go out and about and go riding and chase cows and stuff, which was fun.
Anne Muhlethaler:
May I ask whereabouts in Brazil you were?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So we lived in Sao Paolo. We had a small apartment in the city, and that's where we went to school. But the farm was in this place called Barretos, which was a five-hour drive from the city inland. But if you imagine, I don't know if you've ever been to Brazil, but the landscapes are incredible. So we would do this really, really long drive. And obviously this is before screens, before any of that stuff. I don't think I read in the car because I think that would've made me sick.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I tried, I never managed.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I just remember spending hours and hours staring out the window and imagining things and listening to music and having this constant narrative sort of going on in my head of, I don't know what. I think I imagined who I was going to fall in love with. I was always a bit of a romantic actually. Yeah, so reading was always a big thing for me even though I love writing. And I have written for my job for many years, and I do think I'm a good writer. I don't think I'm an amazing writer, I don't think I'm a novelist. I'm not that sort of writer. So even though I love writing and I love working with words and I love reading and I love language, I actually think that it's something that I have learnt to do through my work. You get better and better at it, but it's a skill that is honed and is developed. You need to have a joy for it, obviously you need to enjoy doing it. And there needs to be some sort of innate ability to do it.
Manfreda Cavazza:
But I wouldn't say that as a child I was planning on becoming a famous writer. It's something that I think eventually became my job because I worked hard at it. And I realized that being in a corporate environment wasn't going to be right for me, and I wanted to do something that was more creative. So I just sort of made it happen I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It's interesting. So on the one hand side you were seeking a career that would have creative elements, not be too boxed in, but then you were interested in business and in business minds and in how things work. And you were on the receiving end of interesting information and discovery, and then you now pulled it all together as a business writer and as a strategy because you get to do all of these things. And I hope that you have access to all of the kind of minds that you'd like to be exploring in your current role. I think this is a really interesting transition because I read a piece on your website, and it was called story listening, which I thought it was a very good title, very up my street. And actually it spoke to me on multiple levels because you described yourself as someone who was very curious and very fast, impatient you said that you were. I wanted to read this quote, and if you could tell us a bit more about it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So you said, I wasn't the scariest of news reporters, if anything, I was a bit of an introvert. But I thrived on the pressure, and the few years I spent doing that job taught me so much. And the most important lesson I learned as a reporter was to focus on the reader, my audience. Once I got that notion clear in my head, the work became easier. It wasn't about me, it was about the reader, and my purpose was to serve them. And I thought there was so fascinating because I felt like I was almost in the room with you when that aha moment sort of happened. Can you tell me what made that connection and tell us more about it?
Manfreda Cavazza:
A lot of women suffer from imposter syndrome, and when you're in that sort of job where there's hundreds of people wanting to do the same job that you are doing, and you really have to be confident and you really have to have self-belief. At that point, I was at the Daily Mail, and it was obviously a daily paper. I was working on the city desk, incredibly talented people all around me. I was kind constantly thinking that I wasn't good enough. And it's such a high pressure job because every day you are there and you have the news meeting in the morning, and everyone's pitching their stories. And that's what I meant when I said I wasn't the scariest of news reporters because I was quite quiet in the morning meetings, and I was nervous.
Manfreda Cavazza:
People around me who'd been there for longer would be quite forthcoming with the stories that they wanted in the paper because we're almost competing with each other. So we were pitching the stories to our editor, this brilliant man Alex Brummer, he's still there I think actually. He's a fantastic editor. And I felt that I just needed to gain more confidence and be better at pitching my stories and myself and my ideas. But I got really stuck in this negative inner voice that was going on in my head just constantly telling me that I wasn't cut out for this and I wasn't good enough. It ended up being a conversation I had with the news editor who just was like, "Look, these people that are reading these articles, you've got access to amazing information." The Daily Mail obviously being with such a high circulation, everyone wanted to talk to us. Every single chief executive of any retail company wanted to talk to me because my beat was retail because I obviously had covered retail at Retail Week. So they hired me as a retail reporter.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And I think that's when the aha moment happened. And it was like, I have a job to do here, which is to help all these retail investors figure out whether are not to buy shares in M&S or Tesco or Sainsbury's. And I can ask the CEOs of these companies what are they doing? How are they going to expand, and why should people invest in them? So that's when my insecurities were taken out of the equation. That's when I realized that I didn't have to be the scary reporter, I didn't have to be full of bravado. I was just doing a job for someone else. And I don't know why that made it feel easier or better, but it really did.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I know why. I know why, and it's really funny.
Manfreda Cavazza:
You can tell me [crosstalk 00:24:09].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yes, I can cause because I have a post-it that talks about that on my desk. I think that imposter syndrome or any other manifestations of fear that get us stuck, men, women, non-identified. One of the ways that we can get ourselves unstuck is to actually try to consider what we would do or how we would act if we came at it from a sense of purpose or a sense of service. And it's so interesting because sometimes in conversation in coaching or when I feel like I'm at my desk and I procrastinating and I'm not doing as well as I'd like to be doing with my time, I try to ... It doesn't always work, I try to look at the post-it and go, okay, think about it in terms of the people that you want to serve, whether it's an audience, whether it's a client, show up for them and then suddenly things are much easier.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I literally imagined these people reading the Daily Mail because I loved working for the Daily Mail, it's not my favorite newspaper, I have to say. There was a lot about that newspaper that I didn't agree with. But the fact that I worked for the city section made it better in a way because it was a smallish section at the back. But it was so well read, millions of people read it. And so I was like, "These people are reading me, reading my articles about Tesco or Sainsbury's or M&S, and they want to know." I just imagine what would they ask if they were sitting in the room and they had to invest their shares in something, and they were picking retail as a sector because they believed in it. What would they want to know?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So it's just taking me out of the equation I think. I was just like, okay, what do they need to know? What are the issues that this business is facing? What are the mistakes that potentially the CEO has made? It was that. It's like being an investigative reporter I guess, you have a job to uncover. Because often these big corporate companies, they try to make things sound better than they are. So my job was then to just figure it out and go, okay, you've said you're doing this, but what does that actually mean? You said you're going to expand in China, why are you going there? Is that a waste of time? And then you start getting into it and you start understanding the trends and you start comparing businesses to other businesses.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And also the job entailed talking to lots of not just the companies, but also to a lot of analysts. If I ever felt really, truly stuck, it would be you'd pick up the phone to an analyst and go, "I don't understand this. Why is this business doing this when it doesn't make sense in the situation?" And the analysts obviously have incredible minds, and they would be brilliant at dissecting numbers that were really complicated. So yeah, I loved working for the Daily Mail, it was such a brilliant job. And it was really sad when that came to an end, but it was to do with kids and family life. Just the two didn't mix. I worked there full time as a staff reporter for about two and a half years, and then I went back and I did shift work after having children.
Manfreda Cavazza:
They would get me in to cover when people were away. I actually really enjoyed that almost even more because my priorities have changed, my family came first. But because it was a daily newspaper, it was the best job to have as a freelancer because all you did was you turned up in the day and you were sent, and often it wasn't retail, it other sectors, you were sent off to cover the story of the day. You'd come back, write it up and then you'd go home. And then the next day, the whole process would start again. So there was no hangover from the day before, it was just literally, okay, here's another day, here's another story, let's start the process again. So it was very straightforward in a way.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. It's bringing up the image of a whiteboard that just gets cleared every day.
Manfreda Cavazza:
You just start again.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, that's interesting. Hold on a second because I know that you went and traveled and sailed around the world for a year. When did that happen?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So we lived in London until, I think it was 15 years in the end. But by this point, I was married, we had two kids. My two eldest daughters, they were four and a half and three. So Tim and I, my husband and I right at the beginning of our relationship, I think even before we got married, I remember him asking me what I wanted to do, what I wanted out of life. And one of my big dreams, and it just so happened that it was also his big dream because he's always been a sailor, but one of my big dreams was to go traveling by boat. And I was like, "I just want to go away and sail around the world." And he said, "Well, I want to do that too." I don't know if that's why we ended up staying together, but it was definitely a thing that brought us together. And it was a dream and a vision that we had.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I don't think we genuinely thought we would ever pull it off, but we talked and talked and talked about it. And all of our friends got so bored hearing us talk about it because I just don't think anyone believed that we would actually do it. But that's one of the great things about Tim is that when he has an idea and a plan, he's very different to me, he's very methodical. He works in IT, he's very good at technology. When he was young, he worked as a mechanic. So he's the kind of guy that will take things apart and put them back together again. This idea was churning around in his head for years and years. And he was constantly looking at boats that were coming up on the market.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Anyway, we did it. We basically figured out a way of saving up enough money to do it. We rented out our house in London, we bought this old 1980s yacht that needed a lot of work. And Tim spent about a year I think in the end preparing this boat for our big trip. And there was a bit of a deadline for us because even though I like thinking of myself as being a free spirit, I didn't feel like I could be a total gypsy. I wanted to be back in time for the kids to start school, but they were three and four. My eldest actually missed the first year of school, so we homeschooled her on the boat. But it was reception, so she missed reception. But we had this deadline, I wanted to be back for them to go to school not just for academic reasons but mainly for friendships and social life.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And I just didn't think it was right to drag them along on this trip for too long. So it was always going to be a year, and we needed to get it done and be back in time for them to start school. So I think that's what eventually was the crunch time was we were like, if we're going to do it, we have to do it now. And so yeah, we went off to Greece, and that's where we started. I wrote about it, I wrote a blog. Loved writing that blog. I think everyone was super surprised that we actually left, they couldn't believe it. We had a lot of people following us on our journey, and we put loads of pictures out. I decided right from the beginning that it wasn't going to be a travel blog, it wasn't going to be we're sailing from this place to the other. It was going to be about what it was like to bring up kids and the nitty-gritty of life on a boat.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I mean, it's still up there, you can see it. And so there's lots of harrowing stories about potty training on a boat, homeschooling, storms that we were stuck in, seasickness. For a long time actually, even though it sounds like it was super idyllic, we were a bit lonely. We thought we would meet loads of people doing similar crazy trips, but it took us a long time. And I think it's because at the beginning of the trip we were sailing around the Mediterranean, and there wasn't like a route. It's not like people go one way around the med. So we never really hooked up with anyone. So we made some lovely friends, the Duncans, we met them in the Balearics I think it was, in Ibiza.
Manfreda Cavazza:
At that point, I was desperate to make friends. I actually went on a forum, a sailing forum and I just said, "We're a family, we've got two girls, we're going to the Caribbean. This is the route we're going, is anyone else out there?" And this person responded, and it was Lisa [inaudible 00:32:47], and we arranged to meet. And it was just the funniest thing. It was like, I think sort of I pounced on Lisa. I was like, "Yeah, I've got another mom friend who's got a husband who's dragged her out on this crazy journey." I just remember we were in Mahon in Menorca, and we just got really drunk. We just got on like a house on fire basically, and we were almost inseparable for the rest of the trip. We sailed everywhere together.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, that's amazing. I want to know what your favorite spot was.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Well, actually Mahon, I loved Mahon. We had so much fun in that place. It's a lovely town, I don't know if you've been there.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Not yet, no.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Mahon bay where we were anchored, so we stayed there for quite a while. There's Formentera opposite.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Absolutely, yeah.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Near there anyway, that was a beautiful island, loved that. Loved the Mediterranean even though we didn't make any friends. The water in Greece is just amazing and the food. And everyone in Greece really looked after us, just the kindness of the people in Greece was amazing. They were all slightly shocked that we were trying traveling around with these tiny little girls in their little dresses. Oh, what's my favorite spot? That's a really tricky question. I didn't actually sail across the Atlantic, I felt like that was a bit much for me to do with the children. So I actually came off the boat for a few weeks, and my husband sailed across the Atlantic with some of his friends and also his mom who the minute we told her that we were going to go sailing, she said, "I'm going to do the Atlantic." She's a big sailor and super brave and amazing. And she just was like, "I'm having a place on that boat when you sail across the Atlantic."
Manfreda Cavazza:
So I had to get off the boat to make way for my other in-law. But yeah, so she did the Atlantic with my husband and some other friends. So then I met them in the Caribbean with the girls. We flew out, and we met them in Saint Lucia. And we sailed around the Caribbean for six months. And there was a beach in Barbuda, an island off Antigua, which sadly I think Barbuda was really badly hit by one of the hurricanes a few years ago. I think it was evacuated and a lot of the buildings were destroyed in that hurricane. But it's coming back now, and I think there's a lot of investments to try and get that island back up and running. But there's this beautiful beach that is, the sand is like a pale pink because it's coral sand, and there's hardly anyone there. I'd say that was my favorite spot. It's called Princess Diana Beach in Barbuda,
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'll check it out.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Very special place.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So what was it like to come back to work after a year out? What did you come back to?
Manfreda Cavazza:
It was hard, it was really difficult to get back into normal life. Probably harder for my husband actually than it was for me because I had two young girls. And I enjoyed that time because it was about getting them settled into school, house hunting, which is always fun and just setting ourselves up down here in the countryside near the sea, which has always been a draw. It took us a few years I'd say to get fully settled. But Tim misses it terribly, he'd love to be back on a boat and sailing around the world again. And I think eventually we will do it again one day, but it'll be when the kids have left.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's so funny. I'd like to come now, I really want to talk about the kind of work that you do for brands. I really enjoyed discovering your website. Obviously we work together. But it was interesting for me to also read about how you talk to people about what you do because I think a writer is essentially also a communicator, right? And you are expressing that your tool is evocative storytelling techniques and an editorial approach to help your clients find their voice. And I wanted you to tell us more about that, how it works, and why it matters.
Manfreda Cavazza:
So I use the word evocative because one of the issues I have with a lot of marketing writing that I see is that I feel that there is this disconnect between what the business is trying to be and say about itself and what the customer actually wants to hear. And I think a lot of the time, and this is not me saying it, a lot of people have written books about it, it's about making sure that you get people to feel something through your writing. So it's not just we are a great product, you have to buy us because. It's how can we make you feel better? How are we going to make your life better? How are we going to save you time? How are we going to give you an amazing experience? People are selfish fundamentally, people just want to make themselves feel good and feel better.
Manfreda Cavazza:
A brand in my opinion needs to tap into that feeling and emotion and how to get people engaged with your product in a sort of emotional way. I think sometimes businesses are so busy trying to build their business and trying to create a product. But the bit that they don't do so well sometimes is the explaining who they are and why people should buy into them and what it is about them that makes them different and makes them special. There's lots of people that do what I do and lots of books have been written about this. It's something that I have noticed it gets forgotten, it slips down the list. There's all these targets. You and I have both worked in PR, it's all about numbers and how many people have read this piece and how many people am I going to reach?
Manfreda Cavazza:
But you have to actually just go the other way. And a bit like the lesson that I learned when I was a reporter, you've got to put yourself in their shoes, in your customer's shoes and just really think about what's in it for them? Why should they care? Why should they buy this product? How are you going to help them? So that's the evocative part. And then the editorial approach, it's very connected to that idea. It's like when I was sitting in news meetings at the Daily Mail, they didn't look at press releases and go, "Oh, let's write about this. And here's the headline, and that's what we want to write." They never did. No editorial team would ever look at it from the point of view of the company, they're looking at it from very much a storytelling point of view. And they're also thinking about their audiences.
Manfreda Cavazza:
It has to be in the public interest, it has to be timely. It has to be something that's potentially never been done before. There has to be a first, it's the first time that this has happened or it's the biggest profit that a company has announced or it's the first time they've gone to an international market. There has to be a story behind it. And again, I think companies often get very stuck in looking in on themselves. And they forget that there's hundreds of other companies making similar announcements or selling similar products. And it's just using that editorial discerning way of looking at a story or an idea or a launch and going, how are we going to make this interesting to customers and to readers or to your audience? It's just being a bit clever about it, I guess.
Anne Muhlethaler:
To your point, I think that you're raising something that's really important, I think most companies as the people you described can be a little bit self-centered, think that the world revolves around them or will. And it's true, I often find that most of the people that I've worked with forget this sense of urgency and newsiness. And I've tried to explain it to most of my clients to say, if it's not newsy, people are not going to write about it. And it doesn't mean that your product is not wonderful, but you still need to find in French, you say ‘une accroche’, it's like a hook. Something where people can go, oh, I can talk to my readers about it because it's February, and blah, blah, blah. One of the things that I really enjoyed on the PR side is the opportunity to be creative and to do something fresh with something that's not new and look at things from a different angle. And I think that's also what an editorial approach can do for a business.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yes, totally.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It's like re-curating a collection around a theme. You can re-merchandise a whole store. And suddenly it feels like it's a brand new collection or a brand new year, and yet it's the same product that was here last week.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yeah, completely. And I think that's where storytelling comes into it because there's always something that hasn't been told or there's a behind the scenes element. There's a did you know this is how this is made or here's a really interesting interview with someone who you've never heard of before but who has been massively involved with making of, I don't know, whatever the product is. I think there's always a way around it, it's just about having that sort of editorial hat of on where you go, we're not just trying to push a product or an idea for no reason, you have to give people something and be generous with ideas. And I know you hate the word content, I hate it too. I literally want to invent a new word. I've got such an issue with that word. It's funny that you've mentioned the word box because I always ... When it first started being used, I literally was like, the contents of a box does not sound exciting to me.
Manfreda Cavazza:
So that's why I try to use the word storytelling more when I talk about content strategy. You can be super creative and come up with lots of really lovely ideas, but you still need to have a good of a plan. And what I like to do for my clients is I will literally map it out and I'll go from month to month, I will say, you can talk about this then, and let's put this interview then. If you're doing an interview on your website, or you are writing a blog on your website, then you could have three or four social media stories that tie into that. If you're doing PR ... It's all connected. And so that's why I call that content strategy plan, but I would love to reinvent the word content. Between you and I, we just need to come up with a new version.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I agree, I'll start working on that. Now, I also saw you, I think that was actually on your Instagram. And you wrote recently that great writing isn't born, but that writing should be renamed as editing. Could you please tell us more about that?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Well, I love editing. And obviously you and I have worked together for a year now with me editing your work. I literally love editing your work because I think every week you always come up with something really super interesting to say. So I just think with writing, and I'm sure you have written many drafts by the time I see it. So I'm actually not having to do a huge amount of work when I edit your writing. But I just think often when you put things down on paper, if you want it to be perfect from day one or from the first edition, you're never going to get it down. So my view is you just need to get it down on paper knowing that you will jiggle things around, you will delete, you will move things up and down. But it's just that process of getting it down on paper that will really starts the creative flow of getting your ideas out. Actually, it might be Anne Handley, do you follow her? Yeah, I think it was her. She said it takes at least four drafts before it's any way decent.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I agree with her 100%. I didn't know that when I was younger. I always thought to myself I can write in English, and I made the choice to start writing in English, I just got stuck. For years, I got stuck because I couldn't imagine how to get started. Well, I hadn't studied it and no one had told me about shitty first drafts. Anne Lamott also talks about shitty first drafts, and I love her. Now, I want to talk about this because I think it's particular to the work that you and I have done and some other people do as well. But I want to put it out there for anyone who doesn't work in branding and who wants to be working a little bit more in depth on the work they put out in the world. Can you talk to us about the importance of tone of voice when someone writes for their brand?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Right. So to tone voice is something that I don't know whether you can go to school and learn how to do tone of voice. But I approach it very much from a intuitive perspective. And I approach it because of my background in writing and the knowledge of words and editing and keeping things concise and coming up with phrases and sentences to help businesses create this sense of uniformity. And for me, that's what tone of voice is all about. And I've always compared it to when you have a logo designed or you have branding designed for your business, there are very strict rules about colors, where the logo goes, what it goes with, the size, et cetera. And a huge amount of time and effort goes into the look and feel of a brand or a product. And I just really strongly believe that the same attention needs to be spent on the way you talk about a brand.
Manfreda Cavazza:
So that's what tone voice is about, it's creating this voice, this sense of who you are in a way that is repeated again and again, and again. I think it's that repetition that makes people understand who you are and what you stand for. And also they get to know you as a brand because you are saying the same things in the same way again and again. So it's not just the words that you use necessarily, but it's how you use them. So there are loads of great examples of tone of voice out there. Innocent is the one that gets quoted a lot, they were one of the first to really come up with quite a cheeky tone of voice. And the way they do their writing on their packaging is very them.
Manfreda Cavazza:
There was a really interesting interview with the marketing director of Tony's Chocolonely, I don't know if you know that brand. It's UK chocolate brand that has really come up in terms of popularity in the last couple of years, you literally see them everywhere. But I think their tone of voice is excellent. And they think their test is if you couldn't see any colors or any logos, could you still tell that this is a Tony Chocolonely product just by the words? So that's what they're trying to achieve. They're really trying to create a stamp, if you like, a brand through the words and the tone that they use in their marketing copy. And it's great. It can be quite subtle, you don't have to be all shouty in the way you talk about your brand. And the example that is used a lot and that I use a lot with some clients is the UK government website.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I don't know if you ever need to access it. But the way they write and the tone on the UK government website is just brilliant. And someone has spent a lot of time and money getting that right. It's really simple, really clear, the layout is good. And for them, they obviously thought about their audience very much when they came up with their tone of voice because they know that people are needing to find information quickly. They're stressed, they're probably doing their tax return. And it's just, how do we get this across in the simplest and clearest way possible?
Anne Muhlethaler:
It's interesting what you mentioned here because it's bringing me this image that tone of voice, it's almost that in between space where brand meets audience needs. It's almost like that juncture point because brand has a lot of desires and things they want to express, and audience and clients have got all of their thing going on. And tone of voice can be that bridge in between that helps the right brand find the right client.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Totally. And I will often get approached to do copywriting projects for websites for example or I'm writing blogs for people. And I will always say, do you have a turn of voice document? Because if you don't, I know I'm going to struggle because I need to understand what you're about. And the turn of voice is very tied into purpose and vision, and the brand's mission and what they're trying to achieve and how they're going to achieve it. You almost need to start with that, then you come up with a tone of voice and then you can start writing copy and blogs and social media captions. But there is a bit of a process, you have to understand who you are, who you're talking to, what you're trying to say to them, and what obviously they want to hear. And then that all gets put together in a strategy, tone of voice document, which is what I ended up doing for a lot of my clients.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Well, the one thing I want to say for anybody who hasn't done this who feels like they should be doing it and that once it's done it's over, I'm going to break the news that it's not. Because the problem I find in my work for my own project is that I forget the tone of voice document that I made. And sometimes the tone I'm using on certain copy is actually not that consistent necessarily with my intention because like anything else we forget. And I feel like it's a labor of love where it's good to have these conversations because it feels to me right now like you're telling me that I need to work on it even though it's not obviously what's going on. So I think I was asking this question for myself.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I'm glad to have been of service Anne. It’s a problem. I think sometimes we create these wonderful tone of voice documents for our clients and they just sit somewhere and they get forgotten. I think it's a real testament to businesses like the Tony Chocolonely example that I gave you, but there's countless of others that it's fully ingrained in their business. And actually MailChimp is, if you look at the MailChimp tone of voice document that's on their website, they're very good at making that apparent across their whole business. And I don't know whether every member of staff gets given it and it's in front of them as they're working There are some businesses that really manage to get that tone debate or argument really ingrained, everyone buys into it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
But I think it's obsession.
Manfreda Cavazza:
As a freelancer, I think that's quite difficult to achieve. I'm not part of their business and I'm doing something for them. And I'm handing it over then, then I don't know what happens afterwards. I don't know whether everyone buys into it or not. But I think that's something that I might need to work on, I think I need to ...
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think you need to find an advocate within the company that is going to carry the work. I remember a couple of years ago I was hoping to bring on sustainability experts to consult for one of my luxury clients. And I will always remember, she said to me, "Listen, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what I do because if there's not at least one person within the brand that's going to be passionate and bang on about this and make everybody care, then it's not going to be any use." I think that's what missing for a lot of these things. What you're describing about the businesses that have done a great job is that they decided that they were obsessed about this mode of communication. And I think as you and I both know and everybody else that we've let photography, images carry a lot of our storytelling for a long time. And in my experience, even when I was at Christian Louboutin, especially I feel when I was at Christian Louboutin, no one cared. No one cared about the words, no one.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I was mildly obsessed with it or me, excuse me. There was such a rush to produce images, to communicate through the media that is Instagram that even though the Instagram captions were always thought through, they were always secondary to the story that the images were bringing up. And actually, I like to argue with my clients that their story telling should start in writing and that the images should match what they want to talk about, but that's not for everybody. Now, you've recently contributed to a brand called Fat Face for a really gorgeous campaign that was called made for life. And I really, really enjoyed reading through the captions that you'd put on your website. Do you mind telling me about the project and how it resonated with the brand audience?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So this was for the first ever US catalog that they launched last year. They've got a few stores in America now. Obviously, it's a British outdoor fashion high street brand that's been quite successful in the UK and they've expanded to the US. But in the US, the catalog market is really huge, and they really wanted to communicate everything that they're about in the catalog in order to drive obviously people to their online shopping website but also to the stores. So the purpose of the catalog was to explain and bring the stories of Fat Face to life. And what they really wanted, which is why they hired me, I ended up working with another copywriter because the deadlines were really tight. But in America the catalogs are very product led, and it's mainly picture of product and then sizes and prices.
Manfreda Cavazza:
What was lovely about this project is they really wanted to bring the editorial style that is much more common in the UK and translate it for the US market. And it was just a really lovely project, we got quite a lot of great briefing notes from the brand. So they're very clear about who they are, what they stand for. And the made for life concept came from them, but our job was to turn that into copy. And the challenge was that the word count was tiny. We had 20, 30 words to play with on each page. The longer pieces were I think a hundred words.
Manfreda Cavazza:
And again, going back to that evocative storytelling, we had to get across the feeling and the ideas of being outside, of going on adventures, of exploring new places. Fighting for catalogs is a weird writing role because you are selling product, but you're trying to do it in a way that is interesting rather than it just being here's a t-shirt. So yeah, it took us a long time to get it right, but I think we did a good job. And what was really great is they said, I don't know the numbers, I need to get the numbers from them, but it's definitely led to a massive increase in sales. It resonated well with the US market, so it worked
Anne Muhlethaler:
Interesting. The other week, I read this really interesting study which I found staggering that 61% of the people polled, and I'll put this source in the show notes because I don't remember it by heart, but 61% of people polled trusted brands over governments and NGOs. What I find really interesting about this is one of the ways that we build trust is with our actions, but it's also sometimes through our words and the values that we communicate. Is there any advice that you can give to any brand that wants to build this sense of loyalty with their customer base?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yeah. So Fat Face is an interesting example. Over the years, they've really tried to be very clear about who they are and what they stand for. And sustainability is a big thing for them. They're investing a lot of time and energy into finding sustainable fabrics, using recycled fabrics where they can, organic cotton. And they really wanted to talk about that. And I think that the values that are linked with being more sustainable, because obviously fashion is such an unsustainable industry. And as consumers, we're all trying to find ways to be more sustainable. So if there is a fashion brand that is open and very transparent about how they are being more sustainable, then that's really going to resonate.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Governments and NGOs not being trusted is because of the way they behave. I can see why consumers will find it difficult to trust those sorts of organizations because I think over the years we've become much better at finding out what we need to know. It's much easier to get access to information, and you can really challenge organizations and brands when they make a claim. So you've got to be very careful that what you say stacks up, and you can prove that you are telling your consumers and your customers the truth. And I just think governments have become quite good at covering up mishaps. It's all about transparency, I guess.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And perhaps also a lack of consistency. Because I think what you were describing before about the tone of voice and that mode of communication is when there's inconsistencies coming up continuously, it's hard for people to find trust. So I think I had one more question before I get us started on the quick fire round questions that I like to ask all of my guests. So I wanted to ask you, can you offer any advice to anyone who's building up a writing practice, either as a brand or for themselves for their business as a freelancer?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Oh, that's a tricky one. It's quite difficult being a freelancer because you are on your own. So confidence is a huge thing. But I would say to anyone who's considering doing any sort of freelance work not just writing to have the confidence and to really go for it. Especially if you've worked in those sorts of industries before and you have experience, you can bring so much value to businesses. And I do think that a lot of companies are going to be investing a lot more in freelance and consultancy type work because of just the nature of what's being going on in the last couple of years. And there is a lot more open-mindedness about investing in outside people. And there are so many platforms now to promote the work that you do and your thoughts and beliefs whether you're active on social or whether you launch a newsletter.
Manfreda Cavazza:
So I think it's about being quietly confident, just making the first step to go and getting yourself out there, networking and getting that first client. But also I would say in terms of the actual writing side of things, and if there are any freelance writers out there who want to do more writing, there is so much demand for it at the moment. I've got quite a few friends who are copywriter or freelance writers like I am, and everybody is busy. I don't know anyone who doesn't have work. So I guess that's a nice thing to hear if people are thinking about it is that there is just so much demand for good copy. And I think it all boils down to this awareness.
Manfreda Cavazza:
There is a growing awareness about communicating your values, being very clear about what your purpose as a business is because that's what customers want to hear. And they want to learn from the brands that they buy from. So in order to get that message across like we were saying earlier, it's not just about pretty pictures. There is a huge amount of time and investment that goes into explaining what you're about. I genuinely believe it all boils down to having good writers on your team who are able to put together those thoughts and ideas in a good way, in a compelling way.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I think on the branding side what I would like to see brands do is to actually have writers in the same meeting as they would a creative director, as they would with whoever does photography and content development because I find that everyone is too siloed.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Absolutely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. For the copy to have a better place at the table, so to speak.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Absolutely. And also, I mean, there are lots of different types of writers, and that's something that I'd like to spend a bit more time talking about on my channels and in my new newsletter that I've just recently launched because I think there isn't a huge amount of understanding about what writers do. You have the sorts of writers that are great at writing product copy, you have writers that are great at creating advertising copy and slogans. You have long-form writers who are better at pulling together slightly more complicated arguments in blogs and longer-form content. So I think there needs to be also, from the writer's perspective, they need to communicate what it is that they do and all the different types of writing that is available because there's so many different ways that you can be creative with words.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks so much. I think that is a piece that most people don't consider. And I know, for example, that great product copy is something that I notice as a consumer. It generally touches me, and it makes me feel better about whoever's website I'm on. Makes me feel like they care.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Absolutely. And there's lots of really fun places that you can be creative with copy. I'm sure you've come across microcopy, so the actual copy that you get in, for example, in labels on clothing. Patagonia is really good at microcopy.
Anne Muhlethaler:
They're so great at it.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I love that brand. Honestly, there's just so much I love about that company. Its ethos as a whole is really well communicated. So yeah, there's lots of different types of copywriting out there. And I think if there are any people listening to this podcast who are considering doing writing, launching a writing business, there's just so many different ways that you can stand out and be different to other writers. Just don't don't think, oh, there's plenty of copywriter out there, there isn't space for me. But there is, there's always demand for the good writers, absolutely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You know who came to mind as someone who's got great tone of voice and great product copy, it's Brown's Fashion.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yeah, they're fab.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, they're so good, and they're lighthearted without being annoying.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yes. And that's a really interesting thing which we haven't spoken about much is humor. I think a lot of people, lot of companies forget it's not about being hilariously funny, but I think that subtle humor running through your copy I think is really important because we've had such a shit time the last couple of years that any opportunity to have a bit of a laugh is always welcome.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think it's a good point to note. Is there anything that you'd like to add before we finish with our closing questions?
Manfreda Cavazza:
No, I don't think so. I think you've been very exacting with your questions. It's really funny being on the other side, it's normally me asking the questions, but it's been really enjoyable.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, good. So I would love to know what is your favorite word and that you would potentially tattoo on yourself.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Okay. So I loved this question, and it really got me thinking. I've got lots of words that I love. And the word mellifluous is a word that I've loved for many years. I love the way it sounds. Again, it's a very evocative word. It conjures up the idea of musical but also liquid, it's just a lovely word. But I've decided not that I would ever have anything tattooed on me, but I do love the word flow. I think there is so much about the concept of flow and just the word in itself because it's a nice short word. But I'm very drawn to, so when you are massively in zone, when you're writing, that to me is an example of flow.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Now, I've been doing yoga for many years, but it's become a massive part of my life. And I have to do it every week if not daily in order to stay sane. And obviously, flow is a massive part of yoga. But I love being on the water, I love swimming, I love being in the mountains. That whole idea of being in the zone and being totally focused on something beautiful and all-encompassing is what the word means to me. So that's my word, flow.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wonderful transition because I'm about to ask you as well, you obviously know that the podcast is at the crossroad between business and mindfulness. So can you tell me perhaps about some of the rituals and the things that help keep you grounded particularly in difficult times?
Manfreda Cavazza:
That's a good question, and obviously it's something that we all had to learn to do in recent times, I've got three kids, and it's obviously better now, everyone's back at school and we're returning to normality. But the last few years have been really tough on the family, having everyone at home all the time and just everyone being cut off from their friends. My eldest who are 14 and 12, so for that age group, I think being in lockdown was really hard. And I have found for me the way I stay sane is very much I need to move, I need to get outside, I need to run or swim. I've started cold water swimming, I know that's such a cliché. But I've been doing it with a friend of mine. We live really close to the sea, and obviously it became a thing. And it's something that I wanted to get into for a long time, and then it was everywhere. My friend and I just, let's do this, this is the time to start.
Manfreda Cavazza:
So we started in October 2020, and we've been going every week pretty much ever since all year round. And it's the most incredible feeling when you get in the sea in the depths of winter, and it's just your whole body completely and utterly succumbs to the cold and your brain just switches off. It's literally like a reset button. It's been very well documented the benefit to mental health, but I can guarantee it's just been the most amazing thing. At the moment, it's more immersion. So we literally just go in for five minutes and scream and then come out again. I'd like to invest in a swimming wetsuit and actually swim because I love swimming. I swam a lot as a kid, and that again connects to the whole idea of flow. I just love being in the water. So for me it's been about movement. I literally have to move every day, that's the way I stay sane. Like a lot of us.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thank you so much for sharing. What is a secret superpower that you have?
Manfreda Cavazza:
You know, I don't think I have a superpower, do we have to have one?
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'm shaking my head saying yes for you guys who can't see me.
Manfreda Cavazza:
I don't know what it is, but I do have a very strange knack, I am able to literally conjure up meals out of nothing. So my husband will open up the fridge and just go, "There's no food." I'll be like, "Yes, there is." Normally, it's some pasta dish. But yeah, I think probably my random cooking, it might be a super power. I think it's a super power but my family probably wouldn't agree.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think it's creativity. Because I agree, I sometimes come up with the best recipes when there's almost nothing left. Oh, and I made an amazing pasta the other day.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yes. What was in it?
Anne Muhlethaler:
It was a base a little bit like cacio e pepe.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Oh yummy.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I only parmesan, and I had chili, garlic, and fresh thyme.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Oh, that's yummy. I'll have to make that tonight. We actually do have no food in the fridge at the moment. I'm literally thinking, what am I going to cook for dinner tonight?
Anne Muhlethaler:
Ta-da, now you have inspiration. A favorite book of yours.
Manfreda Cavazza:
This wasn't difficult, I think I've spoken to you about this book before. It's Any Human Heart by William Boyd. And it's the most beautiful story about this man. He lives through various decades and different countries, and it's all about his different sorts of love affairs that he has with his different relationships. I read it about six months ago, and I totally fell in love with the story again. But it's more about him as a character. You just totally feel this person and you feel his heart, and you feel his emotions. And the best thing about it, and I think this was the passage I sent to you, it was the idea of having many different selves. And I think that's something that is so true.
Manfreda Cavazza:
We're constantly trying to figure out who we are and what our personality is and how to put our best selves forward. But I think the point of what I loved, what I took from this book is that you don't have to be any one thing, you have lots of different stages of your life. And it's almost like these different layers of different characters that become you. It's a really wonderful book.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'm going to have to buy it. What is your favorite sound?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Favorite sound. This is really cheesy, but it's my kids laughing. There's nothing better than the sound of my children giggling away. Doesn't happen very often. I've got three girls, and they argue a lot, but sometimes ... Or when they're with friends and they're just in the zone having a nice time, it is just the best sound, giggling.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Sounds cute. What is the last lie that you told?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Oh yes, you did ask me that. Gosh, I don't know. Stumped me. Actually, it was probably my weight when I was hiring skis for my Christmas holiday.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I did same thing.
Manfreda Cavazza:
There you go.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Which is really dumb because that doesn't help the ski. And actually, it's funny because when I said the fake weight, I suddenly stopped and went, no, no. No, no, no because I'm like, no. Oh, the shame. Where is somewhere that you've visited that felt like it really had an impact on who you are today?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So after university and before I started working, I did a ski season, I spent six months working in the mountains. And it was that totally kind of, the freedom of living that lifestyle. But I didn't know anyone. I just got this job, didn't go with any friends or anything. And I absolutely loved being in the mountains for that long and just cooking, skiing, just being there outside most days. It was a really lovely lifestyle. I always thought I was a city girl, but that time that I spent in the mountains made me realize that actually I love being in a city, and I love the culture. I loved my time in London, but I'm a much happier person since I moved out. So I think that has shaped me as a person.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing. What is one of the most embarrassing moment that you can recall that you would like to share with us?
Manfreda Cavazza:
I saw your question, and the first thing that sprung to mind was years ago when I was at the boarding school that I told you about. It was an all-girls boarding school, and there's a boys' school nearby. And that somebody in the boys' school organized a fashion show. He actually ended up working in the fashion industry. Very creative guy and a few years above me. But he wanted to create this fashion show., and obviously he shipped in all the girls from my school to be the models. And it just so happened that I was at school with Jodie Kidd, she eventually became a model. I was in the fashion show and I had to share this catwalk moment with Jodie Kidd.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh no.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Beautiful, statuesque girl. And they put me in these ridiculously high heels. I think I was 14 or 15 at the time, and I obviously wasn't used to wearing shoes like that. All I remember is I walk onto this catwalk, and you can imagine what happened next, I just fall flat on my face in front of all these boys. And it was literally the most embarrassing moment. I wanted to just die and sink into the ground and for nobody to see me ever again, but I couldn't. So I literally had to stand up and put my shoes on and walk and then come back. And I did it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You didn't hurt yourself?
Manfreda Cavazza:
No, no, no. It was just the embarrassment. It was absolutely mortifying. So that was the end of my modeling career.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks for sharing that. If you could imagine that you can step into a future version of yourself, what kind of advice do you think you could share with present state version of you?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So this is great question, and I often think about what I would say to myself from 20 years ago. How I feel about myself now is very different to all the insecurities and the city worries that I had when I was 20 years younger. It would probably be some other sort of sentiment to just not give a shit about what people think, just go for it. You're very lucky, you've got a great life. Don't worry about it, just keep going. I don't know if I would say anything more deep, just to enjoy the life that we have. I'm sure in 20 years time I'll look at my 40-year-old self and wish I was back there and not 60 and full of wrinkles.
Manfreda Cavazza:
The other thing that I would probably say to myself is just to enjoy my children. I'm going through that stage now with my children, we're the teenage years. It can be all a bit fraught. It won't be long before they will leave home, and I'm sure I'll miss them terribly. So it would probably be just enjoy it, live your life and make the most of the time that you have with your kids while they're there.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's gorgeous. Thank you so much. And then my last question, what brings you happiness?
Manfreda Cavazza:
So I've sort of covered this a little bit in previous answers, but it is really for me, it's being outside. I think when I'm old I'm going to get into gardening because I just ... You and I both have jobs where we're at our desks for a lot of the day. I just need to be outside and be in nature and go for a run or a swim in order to feel like I've had a good day. And I'm terrible, my kids, if it's a sunny day, I just can't be inside and I can't let anyone else be inside. We have to go outside if it's a sunny day. So yeah, that's what brings me happiness, it's being outside, being on the water, being up a mountain, that sort of thing. Pretty simple pleasures. And good wine, good food.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Manfreda, thank you so much for your time today, for answering all of my questions. So if people want to get in touch with you, where can they find you?
Manfreda Cavazza:
Yes, I'm online. I have a website, it's manfredacavazza.com. And I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn. So you can connect with me on any of those channels.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much again. I know I will be speaking to you very soon. And have a lovely rest of the day.
Manfreda Cavazza:
Thank you so much.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks again to Manfreda for being my guest on the show today. You can find her at manfredacavazza.com and on Instagram at freddiewrites78. And all of the links are in the show notes. So friends and listeners, thank you again for joining me. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice. If you'd like to get in touch with me, it's @annvi on Twitter or Instagram, and @_outoftheclouds as well where I also like to share guided meditations and other daily new things about mindfulness. So you can find all episodes and more on my website annevmuhlethaler.com. If you don't know how to spell it, that's okay, again, the link is in the show notes. I suggest you subscribe if you'd like to receive news and my bimonthly newsletter. So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. And I hope you'll join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe, and take care.