Nishanth Chopra is a young, innovative Indian entrepreneur who in 2016 founded a unique sustainable brand and collective called Oshadi (pronounced aw-sha-dhi, which means ‘essence of nature’ or ‘healing plant’ in Sanskrit - @oshadi_collective)
In this interview with Anne Muhlethaler, Nishanth tells Anne about growing up in the textile town of Erode and how, after returning from university in the UK, he decided to carve a new path for himself by breaking with the expectations of his family and launch a small sustainable ready-to-wear brand. In his pursuit, Nishanth came to realise the depth of problems that were underlying the traditional fashion production model, even when trying to do it sustainably. He explains to Anne how, out of a desire to look after the earth after creating clothing, from printing and dyeing to weaving and spinning cotton, the collective started cultivating a new fashion system with a 50-acre regenerative cotton farm.
Nishanth says that if he has any talent it’s really just connecting the dots — right time, right place, right people — and that’s how he was able, step by step, to launch this 'seed to sew concept'. And Oshadi doesn’t just look after not just the soil or think of the finished product.
Instead, Nishanth shares his vision with the farmers and artisans who collectively work on this project. He says his aim is that the complexity (of figuring out this new respectful way of working with the earth) should end with ‘us’ — making it possible for anyone else in the future to replicate this radically transparent model.
Nishanth also tells Anne how meaningful change can happen when there is collaboration through real respect for someone’s work — something that’s not always shown to Indian craftsmen and women from a Western point of view.
A unique voice and gifted entrepreneur, who hopefully will leave you inspired. Happy listening!
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Selected links from episode:
You can find out more about Nishanth work and Oshadi at https://oshadi.in/
on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/oshadi_collective/
And selected press at https://oshadi.in/pages/press
Erode, in Tamil Nadu, where Nishanth grew up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erode
Fibershed's Rebecca Burgess - https://www.eco-age.com/resources/fibershed-rebecca-burgess-interview
The film Merku Thodarchi Malai that Nishanth talks about on every podcast - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merku_Thodarchi_Malai
The myth of Sisyphus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
Sapiens - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapiens:_A_Brief_History_of_Humankind
The article about soil from the Guardian posted on the Oshadi Instagram - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/07/secret-world-beneath-our-feet-mind-blowing-key-to-planets-future
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Anne Muhlethaler:
Hi. Hello. Bonjour, and namaste. This is Out of the Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I'm your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Today, my guest is Nishanth Chopra, the founder of a collective called Oshadi which in Sanskrit means essence of nature or healing plant. I was delighted to be introduced to his work, which is quite unlike anything else I've come across in the realm of sustainable fashion. Not that I know everything, but you know. Nishanth founded the brand in 2016 out of a desire to look after the Earth, and this has been at the core of the mission which started with creating clothing from printing and dyeing to weaving and spinning cotton, and now cultivating a new fashion system with a 50 acre regenerative cotton farm. I read a great quote on Oshadi in High Snobiety. It said “Chopra's brand is more of a collective one with a seed to sow perspective and a fully traceable supply chain that should become the template for the global fashion industry.”
Anne Muhlethaler:
So in our conversation, we'll touch on Nishanth's process from his family roots in the textile town of Erode in the Southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu, how he was moved by wanting to start with this new model after working in the industry when he returned from university. Then we go on to talk about what let him or rather his team step by step to this seed to sow concept. Also not just looking after the soil, the production, et cetera, but looking after the farmers and artisans who collectively work on this project. Now, I must note that the sound quality isn't the best throughout this interview, and I hope that this is not going to deter you from listening to this really fascinating entrepreneur who's just choosing not to stick with the existing fashion production model. I hope that you'll get inspired by him as much as I did. So anyway, let's get to the interview. So, Nishanth, thank you for making it on Out of the Clouds.
Nishanth Chopra:
Thank you so much, Anne, for having me. It's a privilege to be here and I'm really looking forward to this-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Me too.
Nishanth Chopra:
... conversation.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Me too. So, first, I want to thank Katherine, who made the introduction between the two of us and who introduced me to your work with Oshadi. I like to ask my guests to take their time and tell me about their story, who they are and where they come from. And of course, we can dig into the work you do, and I have plenty of questions for you, because I'm fascinated about your project.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. My name is Nishanth Chopra. I'm the founder of Oshadi, which is a fashion textile company trying to reinvent ancient textile and farming practices with modern design and sustainably innovative materials. Starting from where I was a kid, I think it can give you a bit of background why I have started and where I come from. I was born in Erode, which is one of the biggest industrial textile towns of India. As a child, I was not really aware of where I am, and you know, what I was a part of and things like that because I was a very hyperactive child just getting through things. I had to change a lot of schools because I was really hyperactive, and childhood just went by.
Nishanth Chopra:
I went to university in England. At that sort of age, I started to understand who I am and what I am doing, just understanding a bit about myself because now I was looking at my childhood, at my past years, through the lenses of an older person. Because I was not too old. I was like 21. I had to come back from university, graduated and I came back, and my family run a textile factory. My uncles, my granddad, a lot of people are a part of it because I'm the first person in my family to get access to education, but not just access to education, but had background to go out of the nest and see things from a bigger perspective. I went to England to study that. I saw things from there, came back, and I just had a very different perspective on things when I came back.
Nishanth Chopra:
So, I came back. Obviously the first thing to do is come join the family business, but that's what you're expected to do. I joined the family business, worked there for six months. I worked for some of the companies in the meantime, like for three months, four months through references of course. I didn't really have a good CV that I could apply for a job and get in, so I didn't really necessarily do well at university that people would take me in, but I was fortunate to have a reference from my parents, and they put me in places in factories, which otherwise I would have never gotten into. When I went there, I sort of saw the textile supply chain fashion. I started understanding how the textile systems work, how the fashion systems work, how do people get production orders, how things are made. And when I came back and joined my family business, I just realized this was not for me. I thought there's something seriously wrong with the system. Maybe it was my perspective at that point of time. I just thought there is a system which is already set, but just because there is a system, it doesn't mean it's right. The textile or the fashion [inaudible 00:05:44] the pollution, the wages, the mechanization of humans and humanization of machine, it was so intense.
Nishanth Chopra:
During the breaks, these different factories, I had the privilege of speaking to different people who worked there who'd been working there for years, like 20 years, 30 years just to understand where they come from, what they experience are. And I was really moved by how we ended up creating a system and a society where life is just so unfair. Someone's livelihood ... Or it's not just livelihood, but someone's life is always one person is benefiting at the cost of many other people in terms of they don't get paid starting from people, starting from resources for time. I told my friends, "I'm sorry to disappoint you. I know you created all these platforms for me which I could have never had access to without you, but this business is not for me. I'd like to create something very small from scratch, see where it goes." And you know, I'm happy with small things. I don't really want it to go be a big business, but I want it to be a right business. You set up [inaudible 00:06:54], and maybe someone after me would come and take it to the next step and evolve and improvise and stuff like that.
Nishanth Chopra:
And of course, I was the black sheep because you are in this family business, and everyone's like, "What the hell is wrong with this guy? There's an established business and he decided to bail on this." Together, wondered, he's the first person to get higher access to such great education. We thought he would come back and take over and take to the next level and stuff. I do completely understand where they come from and from their point of view and stuff, but I just had different look on these things and I travel across India to explore different [inaudible 00:07:36]. I attended a lot of organic farming workshops. I was doing that, so I was meeting different ... But I thought the best way to do something is to make a product and connect the textile [inaudible 00:07:49] to the modern consumer creative product. That's how you connect them. And at that point in time, I had ... I worked with a designer who was really good with women's wear and it was very girly. I really wanted to start with things the designer was comfortable with and we launched a women's wear brand, and things built.
Nishanth Chopra:
I used to go to fashion weeks for every season showcase. I met a lot of brands came from the same place. We just have ... Everyone had a different journey, but we all had the same goal; to do things in a better way than there had done before. And in those times, I started working with some of the brands to also do their textiles. We started making textiles for like-minded brands alongside our fashion collection. It's like the only way for this project to succeed is not just have it by myself, or give it access to as many people as we can, because importance of this work is consistency. The only way this work can go ahead is through consistent work. And which of course no matter how big my brand grows or as a fashion brand, it'll still play a very small role [inaudible 00:09:08] how extensive and vast industry is, and the kind of adverse impact it's having to its bigness, expansiveness, the vastness. And we took in other brands and we were fortunate to find brands who shared similar values, beliefs, and we started doing textiles. And in 2018, I watched a movie called Merku Thodarchi Malai where it's about this farmer.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Remind me of the title, because I heard you talk about it on another podcast, yeah.
Nishanth Chopra:
I think I talk about it in every podcast. It's called Merku Thodarchi Malai. I'm just putting it in the chat for you. I talk about it in all the podcasts because I think even if one person watches this and they think there is something that needs to be done, it's a good thing. But [inaudible 00:09:57] sound like recorder. I just keep saying the same thing over and over again to all these podcasts.
Nishanth Chopra:
But yeah, the movie talks about the vicious circle of farming where a farmer is caught in this taking a loan, [inaudible 00:10:13] chemicals, luring all the things in the land, and the land doesn't have tolerance and it needs more and more of those chemicals. And then it doesn't work out for the farmer, and the farmer ends up selling that land and he becomes labor. Start with the labor, he works his way up, and then ends up as a labor. That's how the movie goes. But I really thought that was [inaudible 00:10:35]. Everyone can have a good time and we can have ... I like to have access to things, what I want to, and no one decides this for me, and who am I to decide it for someone. And maybe there was a different way of doing things.
Nishanth Chopra:
So we started next day, I heard this podcast, Rebecca Burgess from Fibershed. She was speaking about the things which I really wanted to create. I didn't really know at that time it was called regenerative farming or things like that, but I just really knew that there was a distinction, traditional Indian way of doing things, and creating an economy near supply chains, you know, low carbon footprint, everything within their village, everything working as community, as one, and a very tight knit supply chain. I saw this photo, like a ancient Indian textile supply chain where it's just a small circular map where I think someone from the family is farming and someone from the family is weaving, and someone from the family is spinning, and it all comes together and they go to the market in the same village and sell the garments. That's this tiny harmonious supply chain which existed back in the day.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Like an ecosystem of its ...
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah, it was ecosystem. But we've come way, way ahead in such time. The globalization, the world is now that village, but that's not true, to be honest. The world is ... There can still be a lot of micro ecosystems in this world. And then we create this ecosystem and then we can sell it to different parts of the world, but everything has to be produced here. Like in this hundred kilometer radius of where we are, let's try and see, like, [inaudible 00:12:18] is still a big place, but still very tiny compared to thousands of kilometers every fabric. You'd see a cotton traveling from Australia going to Istanbul getting spun there and then [inaudible 00:12:32] and China possibly. I don't know where, but it then goes to Portugal for sewing, and then from Portugal, it goes to the US. And then from the US, it gets distributed through across the world. Again, you see compared to that, our cotton grows here. It's spun here, it's [inaudible 00:12:49] here, it's sewn here in these hundred kilometers. And you know, it just goes straight to the brand.
Nishanth Chopra:
So, you see what I mean? There's such a big part of traveling that's brought down. I don't really know if you ask me how much carbon emission, is it carbon positive or carbon neutral. I don't really have access to that. And I just really like [inaudible 00:13:11] when people ask the specific details. You know, how people can be so [inaudible 00:13:16] about such invariable processes and stuff like that. But I'm pretty sure our supply chain is regularly efficient in its way, so I'm pretty sure the carbon it reuses much lesser. I don't even know if it's positive or not, like neutral, I don't even know what those words mean, but yeah. I just wanted to make an efficient but also community-centric, but also a ruralized supply chain which we are starting to create. I wouldn't say it's established, but start. Like, it's started.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's fascinating. Now, I remember reading, I think it was in the Vogue article that came out I want to say in 2020, 2019, I remember you saying, and you mentioned it just now, that you saw the real negative effects of that super industrialized textile manufacturing when you got back. And I was wanting to know. I loved ... You said when I came back, you complained quite a lot, and I thought that was funny, but then you decided to do something. I'd love to know, what made you go from complaining to acting and deciding to do it differently?
Nishanth Chopra:
If I kept complaining, I would be this really annoying person who would never want to hang out with. You know what I mean? And there's no point because it doesn't bring change. It just creates frustration and frustration which I ... I was creating that within me, and I didn't really want it to. I really wanted things to stop, and then I realized things are beyond my control. But there are things that I can control and kind of channel those things. I can't change everything, but I can create this tiny, tiny, tiny space where things work differently. In that tiny space, you never know like after me, what happens. You can't really bring a massive ... I can't change the world in my one lifetime, because I only have limited number of years, but I think if I could create a space with a different system, that kind of someone would definitely take from here and take it ahead. And that's the start of something.
Nishanth Chopra:
Like, everything is a start. You have to sow the seeds and that's how things grow. Some seeds grow ... It takes hundreds of years for a seed to evolve into a tree. Some trees evolve in few decades. Some trees evolve in 10 years. You never know what seed that is, but you just have to sow the right seed [inaudible 00:16:07]. So, that's exactly what I did. I don't think our system is perfect or whatever it is, but at least we start somewhere and we evolve as things grow.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So, I was very interested in the relationship that you have with the soil. And I understand that you talk now ... You used the word which has been used rather recently, as you mentioned, regenerative agriculture, but you also speak a lot about using ancient traditions and meeting with farmers and traveling to do workshops and finding out more about creating that type of farming that is regenerative and supports the soil and future growth, not just what you're building now. Can you tell me more about that?
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. I think as I said, region is like the old new, or the new old, or whatever. It's just a new term that things that were practiced back in the day. Unfortunately just like there are systems, there are books where you can make chemicals, there are formulas, no one left the formula to practice regen agriculture. You know, there's not a book where you can refer and say, "Oh, well, I have the answer. This is how it's done." There's no book that defines it. So I think we had to start with different things. We had access to workshops, people. Today also I went for ... We went for farm visits and were speaking to farmers and I learned there was this kind of [inaudible 00:17:49] this vegetable which you can get, like forest that you can [inaudible 00:17:58] and stuff like that. You know. And of course, we decided ... We invested into bringing that sort of thing, and we're bringing a trial, and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. And that's how we figure things out. We were just taking different things from different places and you know, different information, just put it all together, make it a trial, error. Trial works, then you make a workbook that works and you work through that.
Nishanth Chopra:
But I think it's about creating a system, which people can really ... It is a very complex system, but when people practice it, the complexity should end with us. When people practice this, whether it's brands, whether it's partners, it has to be easy for them. All the simple things you see, like maybe an iPhone or a good designed building, that looks absolutely simple, there is a very complex mechanism that goes beyond it, but a lot of people would be put away if you try to overload them with the complexity. Not everyone wants to know about this. They just want to experience the simplicity of that phone. Or I don't really want to know what's behind the mechanism behind this phone. I just want to use the phone and make sure it's simple. I just want to use this laptop. I just want to use a product and make sure it's simple. I don't want to get into the complexity of how it's built.
Nishanth Chopra:
But it is a complex process, and just like that, the system we create is really complex from our side. You know, there's so many existing systems. We have to [inaudible 00:19:39], like we are creating ... Through these trial and errors, that's how we figure out the complexity, but also the solution to make these complex things simple. And you know, we take those simple things and give it to the farmers, give it to the brands like, "Hey, you want these fabrics? You want a regenerative cotton fabric? This is it." There are brands who want to know more about the complexity of the system. They want to learn. And we do work with them to tell that story, and some brands, they take the story and communicate with their readers, with their customers and people who want to learn. But we are trying to ease this complexity of systems so brands can have access to it very easily. Farmers can become a part of this very easily. They don't really have to think. They can just take this, adapt, adopt, practice, and that's it.
Nishanth Chopra:
I think most people just want easy things. Like Just Eat, like a Uber. You just get in the car and go. How can you order food at home? And things like that. People really want to simplify their lives. And I think that's exactly what we are trying to do; simplify these systems so a lot more brands can have access. A lot more farmers can become our partners and we create this community together. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I really liked what you said. Complexity should stop with us. So you're-
Nishanth Chopra:
With the creator, yes.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Of course. Yeah. I mean, you are doing the work of figuring it out. You're creating the collective. You're putting the artisans to work as well as communities and the farmers. And then you offer this simple solution to brands who want to be able to have access to what ... I can't say it. Regenerative cotton. That's really wonderful. I was going to ask you, and I think that's probably something that brands want too. You talked in another interview I read, or actually it was on your website, about radical transparency. What does that mean exactly for people who are going to be interacting with Oshadi?
Nishanth Chopra:
I think it's radical transparency. It's not just a supplier's point of view. It's also a brand point of view. The brand needs to know where their cotton comes from. It's not just to communicate to customers what it is. It's just about knowing what you're doing. Imagine ... It's same thing; most people are used to not knowing where their food's coming from and stuff like that. But I think let's say if you're going to a restaurant, let's say the chef cooks you food from a really bad farm, and that's the chef's duty to make sure the food where he gets from, like he cooks, comes from a good farm. It's healthy and the customers will eat it. Who eat it also are assured that the chef or the restaurant people have ensured the food's good.
Nishanth Chopra:
Same way I think the brands, when they make stuff, they are guaranteeing. They are standing behind their product that this product is good. Whether they say it or not, that's what it means. A chef not coming out every time you go for lunch saying, "Hey, you know what? I use the best raw materials." But you just think it's obvious that he has to be doing it because I pay this much to be in this fancy place or this nice place and I know that the food here is going to be good. And does the same thing on the brand, the transparency, what that is. The brands knowing where the cotton is coming from, who's spinning or who's weaving or who's dyeing it, and they make sure they [inaudible 00:23:31] partners, whether it be farmers or dyers or things who know where their source are coming from, you know? Where it comes from. Whether it's coming from right places, that it's going through the right processes until it gets to the customers. So right from the source until it goes to the customer, until ... It has to be monitored. It has to be thought through from start till the end.
Nishanth Chopra:
But now, these days, it doesn't end with just going to the customers. It has to find its way back to the soil or find its way to the recycling place, and really good transparency, I think I used this word when things were like ... I thought we're like linear. Like when we first started, because one way. But then I think about ... I think that was like the first year is me figuring out what's going on. Now it's circular. You start to understand that everything you do has a ripple effect, and it just comes back. Something [inaudible 00:24:36] round and round and round, and which means the transparency is not [inaudible 00:24:42]. It's about creating a product, but you also think ... watch its life cycle. And life cycle is never ending. It doesn't end. [inaudible 00:24:52]. It becomes soil. Maybe it comes back out as a plant or it becomes a farm [inaudible 00:24:58] and then you recycle it, and then you re-recycle it.
Nishanth Chopra:
For example, when we first started just doing a regenerative cotton, we realized that the spinning process, there's like 20, 30% waste. So we tried to see if we produced that waste to make another yarn, which we did. So we made a recycled cotton T-shirt.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wow.
Nishanth Chopra:
... from that stuff. But then we realized in the recycled T-shirt making process, there is a cutting waste. And now we come as a brand, we work with ... have used the waste to make [inaudible 00:25:32] on one of their shirts. So, that's like recycling the waste from recycle-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wow.
Nishanth Chopra:
... jerseys, and then it has to keep going on and on and on until you can't see it or until you can't control it. And when it goes beyond your control, there is another system hopefully people will have access to in a few years or ... You know, because so many people are working on recycling stuff.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Sure.
Nishanth Chopra:
And stuff like that. But I think radical transparency, it's just like as much as you can see, like where's your packaging coming from or the things you use to print papers in your office. Is that degradable or ... You know, it's more about for within. I think people always confuse it with outside the radical transparency, but it's more within. And once each person or each brand starts looking within how transparent their costs are, I think there's no need of going out and changing it. [inaudible 00:26:35] start changing. Like, it's every single brand doing that. Hey, why do I do this? I review. If I see something can be improved or improvised, let's do that, then do more.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, that makes sense. I really enjoyed your food metaphor because actually, you and I were just chatting before taping this and you were telling me that you were in Paris not so long ago. And you just got me thinking that in some nice restaurants, not even very fancy ones, but obviously also in the very fancy ones, chefs take so much pride in talking about where the meat comes from, where the fish comes from, where the vegetable ... And they have a relationship with all these farmers and all these producers. So I guess that effectively what you do sounds very close to, I would say, how great cooks and great restaurants treat their produce and their supply chain for their clients.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. I can also relate to that. I went this absolutely amazing cafe in Milan a couple of weeks back called ... I don't how to pronounce it. It's called [inaudible 00:27:50] or something like that. [inaudible 00:27:54]. But when I got in, the chef came in and he was introducing [inaudible 00:28:00]. Today, would you like me to take you through the thing and the menu and I can experience, so I just walked with him. It was an amazing experience, but whilst that was happening, I was also thinking about the work we are doing. Like, that's what [inaudible 00:28:15] like, hey, you know what's on today's menu is these [inaudible 00:28:20] with a cotton [inaudible 00:28:22] from this farm, and [inaudible 00:28:23] grown and dyed with these [inaudible 00:28:25], and it's woven by these people, and all these people are paid this much. When it comes to you, it was sewn for couple of hours, and you know, it's to you, and that's the mix in the menu today. You know? That's [inaudible 00:28:40]. I know what you mean.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I love that. I love that. You can totally sell that to me that way. Let's go a little bit granular here because I understand that you didn't only go out and start working on the cotton, but you also looked at all of the other things, as you mentioned, right? You went within and you continuously look at how you can better things. And so, one of the areas that I thought was really fascinating ais how you also worked on natural dyes because we don't think of the chemical impact. Well, we don't think. We don't talk sufficiently about the chemical impact of dying clothes. And so how did you develop the natural dye process and how does that work within your collective?
Nishanth Chopra:
I think it's also, again, the same thing. Just every day, just sit down, what is it? What are we doing? Are we dying? Like, what's the impact it has and what are the other options? Is there something more? Like even today, a few weeks back, we were also seeing if the natural dyes are actually good, because there's so many natural dyes, they also travel different parts of the world to get here. Is that sustainable to bring a natural dye from Central Asia or a different part of the world to bring in, import that and do it? But there's so much waste locally, but with local waste, are there ways to get all these colors because and things like that? There are so many new things like mushroom, natural dyeing from mushrooms, different kind of pigmented mushrooms. People are doing bacterial dyeing and stuff like that.
Nishanth Chopra:
So I think it's just about question, just trying something, questions, see if we can practice it and then understanding where things are coming from, understanding the fundamentals of things work and just seeing if they work in our processes. And is that improving our process? Is that trying to solve a concern there is with chemical dyes? And we met a lot of partners along the way who were doing natural dyeing for us, and that's how we started doing the dyeing and natural dyeing. Also again, if you ask there's a natural dyeing [inaudible 00:30:58] no, because I don't know, a lot of these dyes come from different places that you have from very far away. So, we are now trying to see if we can integrate this dyeing with farming and with our farms and do that. But yeah, so much. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I mean, I'm hearing you say that every time you come across something, instead of going, "Oh, we'll just do it like this," you don't accept the status quo; you question it and you go and try and find a new solution. That sounds you have a pretty creative approach.
Nishanth Chopra:
If you ask me if I'm skilled at things, I'm not. For me, I just know I can bring together different things. I can bring people together because I end up meeting people and then I just have this [inaudible 00:31:43] that, you know what? If I work with this person, this problem can be solved. It's just like connecting the dots. I bump into people at the right ... It's just like right time, right place, right people. I figure out something and then I'm like, "Okay, how do we solve this?" And then I don't know if it's a coincidence or happenstance that I just at the right time meet the right person. For example, if you see the Netflix documentary, next morning, I listen to Rebecca Burgess, there's a solution there. Next video is someone who [inaudible 00:32:20] like a brand [inaudible 00:32:22] solve that. And it's being fortunate, I would say, because so many times, I ... It could have been that next morning, I wouldn't have listen to that podcast. But then I would have definitely done something about it, but maybe not what I'm doing now [inaudible 00:32:36] direction and things like that. But I've been really lucky. There is a force energy which I think no human mind can comprehend that works behind all of these things happening and stuff like that. I don't really know what that is. Just [inaudible 00:32:52]. I think just some time ago, we spoke about the complexity.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Nishanth Chopra:
That's something going on underneath that simplify thing for us. But the simplification process for me is meeting the right people at right time, and something is working. A lot of these things are complexities, are working to make these things simple for me, and yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So, I saw your collections online and I think they look absolutely beautiful. And I was wondering, what do you imagine the future of the Oshadi collection itself to be?
Nishanth Chopra:
We kept our collections on hold for a year and a half now because once I figured this [inaudible 00:33:33] project out, I didn't really want to launch collection until or unless everything really made was from our farms, like from the farms we had. We were growing cotton and things like that. So I didn't really want to ... So, it was just initially [inaudible 00:33:49] funds to be able to make these different kind of fabrics, to grow the cotton for a year and then hold that [inaudible 00:33:56] and make clothes, different kinds of clothes and really think it through what kind ... There's so many things like counts of Yon, different feels of fabrics or different [inaudible 00:34:05] you need different counts. Will I be able to afford to make these different counts of yarn? And you know, we kind of figured these things out a few months ago, probably like a six months ago that, okay, this is how we are doing things.
Nishanth Chopra:
So we are now finally working on a collection which come out in the next couple of months. It's a women's wear collection, but also an androgynous collection. I really love this idea, having the same clothes on both men and women. It's just so easy. It will just simplify so many complexities there are again with size charts and gender, stuff like that. There's so many different things that work. I really wanted to create something that's really actual by anyone. It's not specific women's, specific men's, but everything. But yeah, we are working on it. A lot of different [inaudible 00:34:56] I love. I really wanted this collection to be a whole representation of what we could possibly ... the potential of craft, the potential of regenerative agriculture. It should be a reflection of what is possible, and you don't really have to go in the traditional, but you can take the new route and still do all these amazing things. And you know, I think the new collections is going to be about that. And of course it took us two years [inaudible 00:35:30] come this far, but yeah, I think it's coming out very soon.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'm excited to see it. I heard you speak before, and you touched on this very early on in our conversation about the human component, the importance not just around the community and the ecosystem that you discussing were created between different people in the same family or in the same village, working different parts of the life cycle of a garment, but also the respect or the lack of respect that's been coming through in the way that we've been farming out, forgive the pun, the low textile workers of India and China doing the sort of low labor and getting a lot of ... just disrespecting the quality of human life, the value of the work that was brought up. And I heard you speak very skillfully about this, so could you talk to me about what this means to you and what you guys are trying to do in terms of the livelihood of the people who are working with you?
Nishanth Chopra:
I think the first thing is what I just find so strange about this current system is who am I as a person to decide a minimum wage or to decide about someone? I wouldn't want someone to sit down somewhere and think, "Oh, you know what? I want Nishanth to have this life in ... He can have access to good healthcare. He can have access to maybe this restaurant, but he shouldn't be able to afford that restaurant. It's so hard to change this thing. I keep thinking that why do we get to decide a minimum wage for someone else? If someone decided a minimum wage for me, I would completely hate it. You know? Just someone like, "Hey, this is your minimum wage. You know what? Live within the means of this wage I pay you."
Nishanth Chopra:
And unfortunately, we are brought into the system, and you won't believe this, but a lot of these workers work for 12 hours every day, and one of the things what we wanted to do was try to see this eight hours. I don't even know if eight hours is a rational number of hours to work, but that's what the world is. And I'm trying to see if we can make sure we pay the same amount of money, what these guys work for 12 hours, the reason they work for 12 hours is they want to get this money. What if we pay this money for the people who work in eight hours? And is there a way we can cut out all these night shifts? So we completely [inaudible 00:38:06] all these night shifts, three shifts system. We just have one shift with some overtime every now and then. Of course fashion is a very demanding industry [inaudible 00:38:17] but we have not multiple shifts, just one single shift with a little bit of overtime sometimes, and trying to make sure the people we work with make the same income in eight hours because they'd have to work 12 hours for it in a different company and stuff like that, which means all your prices go up.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Nishanth Chopra:
Like everything goes up, but there are brands who understand this and who share same values as we do. And as I said, very early, I had this fortune of meeting these brands who share similar beliefs, fundamentals that we do, and that yes, we are okay. I'm pretty sure they are selling at the same price as a lot of their competitors too, but the making cost of stuff is pretty high compared to the competitors, but they are willing to let that go to create a better system. And that's how it works. You have to let go of things. There's an opportunity cost for everything. If you want this, you let that go. If you want that, you let this go. It depends what your priorities are. As a company, we decide how much we pay. Then there is a set standard, but there is also a question of why? Who is someone to set the standard for someone else? Like, someone's lifestyle. I'm basically setting a standard for someone's life. I don't know if that's right, but that's what I can do at this moment.
Nishanth Chopra:
I just think I'm still unfair, or as a company we are still unfair, but we have a [inaudible 00:39:56] as a company. I can't just say that let's take this divided equally. Unfortunately, this would mean the end of company in a month if we decided to. So, there is ... As I said, we are creating a space where we start something, but things will build on and on and on. There will be a system I'm pretty sure one day that would be more fair to what we have now.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. It's really inspiring. It really is. And I think that there's not just brands that are going to trust you with that and who see the world, you see it and who want to make that change, and either they'll absorb the costs, right? The difference, or they'll just put their prices up and tell their customers why their garments are more expensive. And I think that there are customers like I'm pointing at myself that would totally want to spend money if I know that this is what I'd be supporting on the other end. I'm sure that there's more than demand nowadays. We just need to be able to support you in whatever way we can. I also know that you are obviously a very eloquent spokesperson for the crafts of your country, and there's many. I know that obviously there's the growth of the cotton, the farming, the weaving, the sewing, the block printing. But I heard you say that you don't want to make the artisans seem they are less a person because when brands collaborates with artists in Paris or a Parisian [inaudible 00:41:31], it always sounds like a very elevated collaboration. And you want to elevate the Indian craftsmanship in a way. Could you talk to me more about that?
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. I always feel that through Europe, wherever I go, I just think a lot of times when people look at skin type, they have this subconscious judgment like he is this, he is that, she is this, she is that. Partially the media, the communications, the marketing of these different things make it seem like you have to be this skinny person and white skin. And if you have all these things ... It's just like the thing. And the same thing when the brands come in, a lot of times when they look at the skin and look at the lifestyle and look at we eat this ham and things like that, they just have this preconceived judgment of what that person is and he needs help or she needs help.
Nishanth Chopra:
But I think unfortunately it's just so deeply ingrained within the human subconscious, and it has been evolving for years and hundreds of years and maybe thousands. I don't even know. I think there is this kind of system where you make a judgment of a person's appearance, and based on that, you judge a person's lifestyle, and based on that, you think, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to help." Help is two ways. It's like we get help every day. I get help every day, you know? I have mentors. I have my family. I have people like you, Katherine, anyone just trying to help us by putting our work out there. But that is a help coming out of respect of someone's work.
Nishanth Chopra:
There is a difference between respecting someone's work, but then there is a help where you just think about this poor person in India or Africa, and you know what? I feel really sorry for him, so send some money. That is a different kind of help. When people look at crafts specifically in Africa and India, all these places, they have this notion that, "Oh, shit, I need to help these guys." We want to come and help you out, you know? It's nothing to blame the brands, they have a very different lifestyle possibly in London, in Europe, in the US, in New York and LA. They grow up with different things. They are brought up with this at least good values, helping. Even that is through sympathy, at least there are these learnings and education in that person to help someone, which is a great thing. But the help, as I said, is of two different kinds. One is out of respect. One is out of sympathy.
Nishanth Chopra:
And I think a lot of these craft people in India, in Africa, in different parts of South America, all these people are really artists. The kind of skills they have are impeccable and I think that [inaudible 00:44:37] has to viewed through lenses of respect, admiration, and inspiration. You know? You look at something and, "Whoa. What is this? This man is absolutely killing it," and, "She is absolutely an amazing block printer," or you know? Or natural dyer. That's out of respect when you work, and that's when the real collaboration happens. That's when look at the farmer, the way ... Today, just bending down for eight hours and harvesting cotton, who can do that? I can't be ... Like, 20 minutes of bending down and my back [inaudible 00:45:19] like oh my goodness, what is this? And someone's able to do this, harvest 20 kilos of cotton every day. That is a skill that has to be respected. And someone's weaving fabric, you know, that's still. Someone's block printing, that's skill. They are artists maybe not in the conventional outlook of life, conventional educational systems. Maybe they are not called artists, but they are in their own way.
Nishanth Chopra:
I think they are looked at, like if someone's from Italy or France or from the US, if there's a weaver from all these places, no one looks at them with a lens of sympathy. They look at them through lens of respect and admiration, and I think it's really important, but that's how the real change can happen, the real collaboration through real respect for work when you come in and you're like, "Whoa, that's amazing. Let's work together. I want to do things with you. I want to collaborate." Just not fancy names of collaboration there, but it's real skill you're collaborating with.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's beautiful. I remember I was very, very lucky to be introduced to wonderful block printing companies in Jaipur. So I visited the facilities and I met the guys and I was completely in awe of their work, but I also had the chance to see the work of a fashion designer based in Delhi who's got his own embroidery studio and whose work is shown at Paris during couture and who chose to work with embroidery first and foremost because he wanted to be able to sustain the artisans and make sure that the skillset wouldn't disappear, because it takes way less time to create prints than it does to embroider. He had found his own mission there. And I side with you when you say that some of these guys are really artists in their own way, for sure. There's a great connection I think that we can feel when we come up close and get to meet people who do the work they do, rather than not know about what they do. The more we are far away, I feel that the less we get connected to the importance and the way and the skills that this person is putting to the work. That's just my perspective.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah, I think that's true. The way, well, let's say the tomatoes, you ... Each day they come from a farm. You can't go and see. You can't literally go and see everything you consume, you make, you do.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Well, sort of.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah, some-
Anne Muhlethaler:
In Geneva, there's a couple of different ... This is specific to Geneva. There's a couple of new suppliers online that basically just work with local farms. So that means that everything that you get delivered is you can literally ... You can tell which farm it is. There's the address. If you ever want to go and talk to the farmer, it's there. But of course it's a very niche place.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. I think I know exactly what you mean, but let's say your food that's [inaudible 00:48:17].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, yeah, I know.
Nishanth Chopra:
What about your headphones. What about your headphones? Who made ... You know, who made your headphones-
Anne Muhlethaler:
A very good point.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. You know where the cement or the beautiful painting you have just behind you. It's very hard for everyone to know the back end transfer stories of where things come from of different things. Someone's interested in clothing, they want to know about clothing. Someone's ... I'm pretty sure there are some people who know about headphones, where their headphones come from, where they are made.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. Actually, these are kind of specialized, so I'm pretty sure I could find out about this, but yes, I know what you mean. It's the more mass market as well, the more difficult it is to find out and to have a connection to the people who make the things that we use, right? And I think that this is one of the side effects of COVID with the supply chain suffering so much. Suddenly everyone cares a lot more about how things are made and where they're coming from. Right?
Nishanth Chopra:
Yes. I think even if you can't access to these things, everything, we can. We have this choice of making a purchase, or we have this choice of getting something from brands, from suppliers, from people who can then make sure this headphone is coming from right place. Like, you go to a vendor like a headphones seller, like a reseller, you know that this person gets high quality stuff and premium materials like good quality not made in sweat shops, that sort of stuff. And I think it's really important to have that sort of traceability and that ... Yeah. Just making sure when you make that choice, even though you didn't have a chance to background check, you know that this person or this brand or this company would have done that from their end, and I trust them.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I'd like more of that on every level, actually. I was writing a blog post about this today about becoming consumer activists by if we raise hand and say, "I want to know where this is made and how it's made and who made it," then the more consumers raise their own hands and tell brands, "I want to know more and I want to get things right," the more brands will have to turn around and do better. Right?
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah, definitely. I think that's where it goes like everyone, like department stores, the brands, the people who made them, everyone has to be a part of this. [inaudible 00:50:50] one thing. It has to be a [inaudible 00:50:52]. You know, it's a very ... Each drop makes [inaudible 00:50:54], and every single drop counts. Yeah. We are so intimately interconnected. Maybe something you do in Geneva today can have an impact in India tomorrow, right? We never know that choice, that purchase can drive. And that's why thoughtfulness, mindfulness, it's very important in everything you do by doing, living.
Nishanth Chopra:
I had this conversation with a friend some time ago, and I was like, if I'm practicing this work of making this clothing in this way, I have to live through it. I need to ear the food that's grown in the same way. I need to buy clothes that's possibly made in the same way. When I go and speak to the people, it has to be one single thing. I cannot do one thing here and then just go out and buy absolutely [inaudible 00:51:56] leather stuff tomorrow or something like that, exotic leather stuff. Because I do think we have this normal line, but we also have this conscious line where it's just about, you know what? I am vegetarian but I eat chicken once a week. It's that sort of, yeah, just doesn't make sense. And I think it's pretty crazy people buy into that stuff. Consumers buy into the brand, buy into that stuff. How can they think that a supplier or a brand or a person can be one thing, but also a completely contradictory thing at the same time? It's not possible.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. The duality, and yet it exists, so you have to bear with it. But I hear you. And I like your image of the vegetarian that eats chicken once a week. That's a bit of a tough one. So before we wrap up, there's one thing that I was wondering. Personally, from the outside, looking at what you've done, I'm super inspired by the fact that you didn't just go one direction and decided to work, not just the product, the raw product, but also the farming side and all of the changes that you're doing. I'd love to hear from you. What would you say to someone who wants to go in the same direction? What advice would you have for them?
Nishanth Chopra:
Just start somewhere and keep doing it and have a very positive outlook on things, and you can do what you can do. You can't do things which are beyond your control. Make sure to give your fullest to all you do. You have a limited amount of time. Utilize that in the best possible way. And it's just not giving up. Don't give up. There are hard times, but the good times are just a night away sometimes. And sometimes good times come when you're [inaudible 00:54:04] different for different people. Yeah. I think just about ... There is this [inaudible 00:54:10] book. It's called Myth of Sisyphus. Have you ... I'm not sure. I don't know if it's like [inaudible 00:54:16], but I think it's called Myth of Sisyphus. I don't really know exactly how to pronounce it. But anyway, it talks about what is the goal of someone's life or any work they do, and to accomplish something. And it just talks about this mountain, this slope, and the job of this person is to carry the rock to the top of the mountain and leave it there, but it slides back. And you still have to take the rock and go back.
Nishanth Chopra:
And that's what life is, you know? You always pick that up, go back until you can't. There will be a day you can't pick that rock up. You'd have to stay down. But until that, the role of that person to keep trying and trying and trying. You know, that's how things work. You just keep doing the same thing. For us, the first time, the rock was just even starting this project. Then it was trying to figure out who the designer is for the brand. And then the rock was making the collection. Then the rock was starting a sewing place. Then the rock was [inaudible 00:55:23]. Then the rock was working in the brand. Then the rock was [inaudible 00:55:26] dyeing. Then the rock was agriculture. Then the rock was making it work. Then the rock was growing it. That's how you do it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I was going to say, you keep rolling with it. Sorry, I had to, because of the rock analogy. I think you meant the Myth of Sisyphus. I think that's [inaudible 00:55:44].
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. Yeah, that's [inaudible 00:55:47].
Anne Muhlethaler:
I think that's how you say it. So, I'd love to hear from you what is your favorite word, but one that you could tattoo on yourself. And again, I want to say I'm not saying you need to be tattooed, but a word that you could carry on your skin.
Nishanth Chopra:
That would be such a hard choice, because carrying a word on the skin, I get so afraid sometimes. I actually have [inaudible 00:56:08] thought of tattooing something, but like, what if I wake up one day and I was like, "Oh shit, I should have had another word," and I can't go back. But I think it would be something with joy, peace, and love. It's pretty [inaudible 00:56:17]. Yeah. I think simple things. Simple things like that would definitely ... Harmony, content, these simple things, what we all want to obtain and what we all look forward to.
Anne Muhlethaler:
What is the sweetest thing that's ever happened to you?
Nishanth Chopra:
There's so many sweet things that happen, but now it's everything happening now is sweet. My family, my friends, the people I work with, the work. Every day you get a gift. There is a hindrance. There is a ... I get both at the same time. Every day you get this, but I'm pretty sure there's so many things that have happened, too. Now, I really think the work I get to do and the people I work with, I'm really happy. I just [inaudible 00:57:20] have a lot of gratitude for [inaudible 00:57:24] brands, the people I work with, for giving us platform and for just being so supportive and making things work for us and for me. And I think this is for now, now at this moment, this is the sweetest thing I could get, but I'm pretty sure as things evolve, I would have a lot more.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's wonderful. Thank you so much. What's a secret superpower that you have?
Nishanth Chopra:
I can eat a lot of food, and I'm always hungry. I can literally eat after a big meal, and I think [inaudible 00:57:58]. I also think about eating right when I'm eating lunch and I'm out, and also thinking about what dinner's going to look like and things. That's my superpower, to eat.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's a good one. What is a favorite book that you can share with us?
Nishanth Chopra:
Some very generic books like ... A couple of books. There was a book called [inaudible 00:58:26] that was talking about how humans evolved, from everything. Also Sapiens, just there a book called Sapiens, and I just ... Everything is manmade. Both the books talk about every system, every caste, every religion, every thing, money, currency, society, [inaudible 00:58:47], everything is made by us. And it kind of gave me a bigger perspective on things. These couple of books I think just show me that things are important. But, yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Very interesting. Yeah. I read Sapiens and I thought that was groundbreaking.
Nishanth Chopra:
Oh my God. Yeah, definitely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Where is somewhere that you visited that you felt had a really big impact on your life?
Nishanth Chopra:
I think university in England. I saw a lot of things. I experienced. I lived a lot of things with [inaudible 00:59:26], and then I came back. It kind of was a setting for my life ahead. I think those three years where I saw, what I lived, I think it was a start. I couldn't say it is everything, but that did really have a profound impact on me and coming and reflecting on family, my life, my system, my culture, my people, stuff like that. And I think most important thing is my own life. I understood who I was through the experience I had there. I think I would say that. Yeah, the things, the people I met, the things I did, everything.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's wonderful. And I'm going to close with my favorite question, which is what brings you happiness?
Nishanth Chopra:
That's a tough question. I think every day, it's different things. You know, I see friends, I see my family, my good times with people I work with. I come to work every morning, I just feel really content. And think happiness comes and goes, but the contentment which I always long for [inaudible 01:00:39] it can't go. Like, it's just there. And I think when I come to work ever day, I'm just really content and [inaudible 01:00:48]. I go home, I meet family. I go out, I meet friends. And of course, [inaudible 01:00:56] the most important thing, food.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's hilarious, and so true.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. It is, actually. People always just undervalue the food so much, but I think everyone I meet is just so excited about [inaudible 01:01:15], you know? Everybody's talking about the next meal. And without knowing, subconsciously, they always are revolving around food.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's os true. And you're lucky because there's good food where you are ,that's for sure.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah, definitely. [inaudible 01:01:31].
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's wonderful. Nishanth, thank you so much for joining me today. It was a real pleasure to get to know you and to hear more about Oshadi, about the project, the scope, and I'm really excited about whatever's going to come up next, and I hope that we'll stay in touch and be able to maybe have another conversation in a couple of years and see how things progress with you, because I see great things in your company's future and in the collective's future. I'm crossing all my fingers. So if people would like to find you, connect with you, where can they go to?
Nishanth Chopra:
Just Instagram or, you know, we do everything [inaudible 01:02:11]. I think half the people in my life, I know now in the last five years are through Instagram. They're [inaudible 01:02:17] and stuff. Also emails through websites. We do get a lot of emails now and unfortunately I'm not able to keep up to anything that's new because we have so much [inaudible 01:02:29] interesting partners we need to cater to and stuff like that. But definitely if it's I think Instagram or possibly website, stuff like that. [inaudible 01:02:41].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Sure. That sounds really good, and I will put the links in the show notes as well so people can just click through and discover. Actually I really, really, really like ... I really like your Instagram.
Nishanth Chopra:
Oh, thank you so much.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I thought there were some really thoughtful things. And actually, I haven't read it yet, but there was a beautiful article that you posted about soil that was published in The Guardian that's on my reading list. It sounded really cool. And I had just written a blog post about roots, so I was like, "Oh God, there's more I need to read about soil." Yeah.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. There's so many things. I think one of the key things we want to do is start a journal pretty soon. So there's so many things. Not just our own stuff, but so many things I come across which we can share and it's about very personal to the company, Instagram, everything we do as a company. Hopefully we have a blog and I think we are working on that in a couple of months. We will be able to share so many things which we cannot otherwise on Instagram or we don't have space there to do that. Yeah, thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That's exciting. Well, again, thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and hopefully we will talk again sometime soon.
Nishanth Chopra:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me again and also thank you to Katherine Goman for introducing me. It's a pleasure to be here. And like you said, hopefully we come back to it in a couple years.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, absolutely.
Nishanth Chopra:
Thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks again to Nishanth for being my guest on the show today. As always, you can find all of the relevant links of what we talked about in the show notes. So friends and listeners, thanks again for joining today. If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice. And if you want to connect, you can get in touch with me at Anne V on Twitter or Anne Muhlethaler on LinkedIn and at underscore Out of the Clouds on Instagram, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness. You can find all episodes of the podcast and more as well on annevmuhlethaler.com. If you don't know how to spell that, that's also in the show notes, and I invite you to sign up to my monthly newsletter if you'd like to get regular news direct in your inbox. So, that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds and I hope that you'll join me again next time. Until then, be well, be safe, and take care.